All Forum Posts by: Randy F.

Actually, neither the coating nor the flashing will accomplish whats been stated. IF water runs down behind tile, whether it runs over a coating or flashing, it cannot run to drain as it will be trapped by caulk. If it cannot evaporate it will just sit there and break down the thinset over time.

I dont overlap the flange. I set the backer above top edge of flange. Not willing to have my tile tilt out at bottom between 1/4" and 1/2". For that reason I install blocking for stability behind where flange and backer meet. If it makes one feel better, you could caulk that joint, but if I had to build showers and surrounds with water running behind my tile in mind, id change professions.

 A pocket door in a tiled wall sounds like cracked grout in the making. Not enough structural integrity to prevent excess movement in wall.

If moisture penetrates your wall and encounters visqueen, it will act as a vapor barrier because it cannot readily travel to your opening at top. 

The only time I use a membrane or a coating is when I build a tile lined walk-in with a mud bed pan. And then only go a bit above the curb. A vapor barrier on an interior wall is unnecessary and actually acts to trap moisture in wall and degrade components. 

If you have enough water permeating the tiled walls to actually run down the wall to the pan, you have bigger problems than what a coating or vapor barrier could address.

With full contact of thinset, there shouldnt be enough connecting voids for water to pass. If there us enough water to saturate and wick its way down, you have missing grout or bad caulk job. If you mix thinset to the proper consistency, flat trowel surface then notch trowel it, butter backs of tile, and "beat" tiles into place, you will acheive full contact. IF, and I repeat, IF, water permeates beyond grout, it would simply wick into thinset and dry out. A vapor barrier would inhibit that process.

Stone is not waterproof, ceramic and porcelain are. Cement based grouts are not waterproof, unless properly sealed with a good sealer. But even with an unsealed tiled wall, during a twenty minute shower, there us not enough water soaked into the grout to cause water to run down in wall behind tile. Without a vapor barrier, it dries out in short order.

Before spending alot of cash on sleuter backer, membranes and coaters, Id recommend epoxy grout, which IS waterfroof, doesnt need sealing, and cleans much easier.

Me thinks there is too much over-thinking going on. Ive demo'd tile surrounds that are decades old with NO signs whatsoever of water damage behind tile. Tile set on painted drywall almost always presents with mold between tile and drywall. Why? Because the painted surface inhibits movement of water vapor thru wall. It traps moisture just as a vapor barrier does. 

If you want to beef up your showers and surrounds, install blocking across walls behind tub flanges and behind pan flanges and mid way up wall of walk-in showers. Also, reinforce framing at inside corners with screws. Using ice and water shield or roofing repair/flashing tape at tub and pan flanges under backer IS a good idea but also unnecessary with a proper caulk job.

I prefer Durock as it is structurally superior to hardibacker and has better breathability, but it is a bit more flexible than hardibacker. I always use blocking behind Durock.

Why reinvent the wheel? We've been setting tile for centuries. Follow manufacturer recommendations and industry standards and youll be fine.

 Thanks Marcia! Learn something new every day! Have never come across those...

Another leak that can cause damage is from dishwasher fittings leaks. I caulk the entire perimeter of the dishwasher space with silicone and create a silicone dam across the gap between rear of cabinets and the back wall or base. If this is all sealed well and there is a leak, the only place for water to go is out onto floor where folks can be alerted to the problem.

I do the same in fridge space if it has an ice maker as those are usually plastic fittings and compression fittings and prone to leaks.

Sink bases take a lot of abuse from drain piping leaks. I glue vinyl onto bottom of bases, cut in closely around any pipe penetrations and caulk around entire perimeter. If installed poorly and there are oversized holes in bottom of cabinet, I create a half inch or so tall dam with silicone around the hole. It saves bases and subfloor below when tenants jam crap under sink and jostle drain loose. Then when their junk gets wet, they may say something. 

I've addressed this before, but worth mentioning again...

The idea that one should not caulk in a toilet makes absolutely no sense to me and if I lived in an area where to do so was against code, I would do it anyway! Here's why...

Toilets are held down by two little bolts that are in slotted holes. They are meant to be just snug, as over tightening could cause porcelain to crack. More likely is that over tightening just bends the flange slot, and I've seen bolts pop out of flange because of this.  All it takes is a tenant who plops down onto the toilet to move it and the wax seal can be broken easily with just a little movement. 

The idea that a toilet shouldn't be caulked so that if a leak ocurrs it can be seen and that this can prevent damage to subfloor makes no sense. More often than not, by the time you see the leak appear around the bowl, the damage is already done. There is often a gap between underpayment or tile and the flange. That would fill up and soak the floor before running out where visible as wax seal leaks are generally a small amount at each flush.

The best way to prevent damage is to seal the gap around the flange with wax from an extra wax ring. If flooring is vinyl and it is curled around flange, trim it so vinyl edge is flat. Fill the gap with wax and level the wax from flange out over the surface of the flooring so there is nowhere for water to go but onto surface of flooring should a leak develop. Also fill the bolt slot and screw holes and heads on flange with wax after mounting the bolts. Butter entire surface of flange and smooth it out. Now there is no place for the leak to get subsurface and cause damage. AND, "butter" the bottom of toilet where it will contact wax ring. Wax to wax will make a solid seal. I also go against recommended procedures and mount wax ring to the wax buttered flange, not to toilet. Then no damage can occur to ring while moving toilet. Lower toilet straight down onto wax ring. Help may be needed until practiced to help align over bolts and ensure toilet is level with floor as it is lowered. Lower slowly onto flange with a very slight twisting action so wax ring slowly spreads out evenly.

Caulk the toilet in and it will not move. If the prep is done properly and the wax ring is good and warm when set, you can be confident that it will not leak, and even if a leak does develop, there is no way for it to get to the underlayment or subfloor and cause damage. 

The purpose of backer board on a floor is to create a monolithic substrate... one continuous mass that moves as one, rather than  individual sheets that can expand and contract individually. The backer is set with at least 1/8" gaps between sheets to allow enough room for thinset to 'glue' edges while fiberglass tape on joints knits them together. By itself this joint is strong, however it is the thinsetting of the backer board to the subfloor that locks the joints together creating the monolithic substrate.

Something to remember is that just because numerous people do something a given way, doesn't make it right. Ive learned bad habits as well. Not everything a manufacturer specifies is absolutely necessary or even makes sense, but if one is in business, they owe it to their customers to follow manufacturer specifications to ensure that in the event of problems, warranties are in effect.

I ALWAYS thinset my backer board down! I don't understand why a tile setter would bypass this step... its so quick and easy to do. I would hold contractor responsible. It matters not if this step was laid out in the contract. It is reasonable to expect a tradesman will follow industry standard and manufacturer specifications. If we had to spell out every step for every application on a job, the contracts would be as thick as the Obamacare bill! You deserve to have the job done right!

I'm looking at this pic on my iPhone, but it looks like that tile may be set on particle board. If so, the likely reason for the tile failure is swelling of the particle board from water infiltration... From the toilet, shower, tub overflow, or all the above. If this is the case you're looking at pulling tile and particle board underlayment, drying out subfloor if still wet, and potentially cutting out section of subfloor under toilet. Often flange replacement makes sense if floor is open, and often necessary either way. Then tile backer/underlayment needs to be installed, tile set, grouted, and sealed.

The question shouldn't be whether or not this is a good price quote, rather is simply replacing floor the right thing to be quoted. What did tile guy say he would do?

My first question would be, is this a long term hold, or do you plan on flipping in say the next five years? Does it make sense to try to rebuild floor to the level to butt to tile cove base or remove wainscot as well? Will you likely find a floor tile that goes well with that yellow wall tile? What condition is tub in... Tub/shower fixture... Vanity, sink, and countertop? To do the floor properly could cost even more than quoted, so does it make sense to put good money to bad? 

If this is a long term rental, I would likely remove the loose tile, mortar the hole level, and throw a rug over it until the tenant moves or goes on vacation, and then gut the bath and renovate. Or... Mortar  in the hole, emboss level the whole floor and install vinyl over it, being careful to cut it in perfectly, glue all edges very well, and do a nice caulk job on it to last try this tenant and then renovate.

If these issues were not raised by the contracted that quoted the fix, he's the wrong contractor. Price is only an issue AFTER its determined what the best course of action is!

Just to expand on others suggestion to provide contractors a scope of work...

The reason for a very detailed scope is so that all are bidding on the same work. Rehabs can be very involved and the larger the job, the more variables are likely to exist or develop. A good contractor understands the historical building practices in a particular market and the potential problems he will likely encounter. His bid may include these factors while a less experienced contractors bid may not. For this reason, the lowest bid is seldom the best.

Even with a detailed scope, contractors may be bidding apples to oranges. An inexperienced investor often doesn't have the knowledge and experience necessary to write a detailed scope. I recommend that investors just starting out first seek out a contractor with a great reputation who is willing to act as a paid consultant. Possibly a retired contractor or an old school remodeler who is always busy but willing to write a scope based on the end product you are looking for. If he will also provide an estimate to use as a measuring stick for the bids you'll receive, all the better. 

What you are looking to avoid is leaving it up to contractors to low ball and then hit you with all the "unforeseen" problems when you have little choice but to absorb more costs and blow up your budget. Ideally, new investors will find this partner and pay for their experience for pre-purchase rehab estimates. Knowledge is power. Gaining that knowledge after you've already purchased a property is like marrying a woman before you get to know her!