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Updated over 1 year ago, 07/05/2023
Phil Grove
I'm listening to a webinar from Phil Grove with a houston meetup that I couldn't attend tonight. Has anyone heard of him and what do you think? I am thinking he is a GURU.
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @John Barr:
Second, the reason that an investor can't tell you what is working at the this very moment is because marketing pieces for real estate have a very short window of effectiveness. If he told you exactly what it is that he is using then everyone would start doing it and next week he won't be using it anymore. REI marketing is a tricky piece of the puzzle and is the part that every person must be creative and do them selves. Here is another thing just do the marketing, Everything thing works to a degree. Its up to you to convert the leads..
This about the most confusing double speak I've heard in awhile on the guru threads.
My take is that it wasn't intended as double speak. It sounds like this is what he was told and he's just reiterating it.
He just doesn't realize that the information he's been given (and paid for) is wrong...
Originally posted by @J Scott:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @John Barr:
Second, the reason that an investor can't tell you what is working at the this very moment is because marketing pieces for real estate have a very short window of effectiveness. If he told you exactly what it is that he is using then everyone would start doing it and next week he won't be using it anymore. REI marketing is a tricky piece of the puzzle and is the part that every person must be creative and do them selves. Here is another thing just do the marketing, Everything thing works to a degree. Its up to you to convert the leads..
This about the most confusing double speak I've heard in awhile on the guru threads.
My take is that it wasn't intended as double speak. It sounds like this is what he was told and he's just reiterating it.
He just doesn't realize that the information he's been given (and paid for) is wrong...
Where does the rational mind go at these events? Pay me $50K for my secrets. But understand that I can't share the actual secrets because then everyone would use them. I'm assuming the Grove's team isn't actually putting it out there like that. This poster says that marketing is just something that is tricky and that you have to figure out for yourself. If that's someone's take-away, why would they pay $50K to figure it out for themselves? And then come here and defend it. Just too weird.
It is interesting reading the responses to this thread for sure. Everyone can decide for themselves whether they want to pay Phil or other coaches for advice. Personally, it isn't about the money for me as much as getting a head start on learning some basics.
To Phil's credit he did call to smooth things over and even offered to meet to answer question freely. He said he has never had anyone as disappointed in his training as me. Maybe my experience is an outlier. Clearly, he has many fans such as @John Barr. To each their own.
Originally posted by @Paul Felix:
It is interesting reading the responses to this thread for sure. Everyone can decide for themselves whether they want to pay Phil or other coaches for advice. Personally, it isn't about the money for me as much as getting a head start on learning some basics.
To Phil's credit he did call to smooth things over and even offered to meet to answer question freely. He said he has never had anyone as disappointed in his training as me. Maybe my experience is an outlier. Clearly, he has many fans such as @John Barr. To each their own.
And when did Phil make this call? Not after you posted here, right?
Is there something in my post that is inaccurate? I listed the facts. I do apologize if I offended you. That was not my intent. This is a thread about Phil Grove's training program. I attended the session and provided my experience. It just so happens that my experience was not positive. Would you prefer that I not share this? If we don't share, then wouldn't this thread be useless? Again, I didn't intend to offend you and if you have a great relationship with Phil, then please don't let me rookie opinion change that.
People are always gunna judge and there will always be haters; but, I want y'all to know that I wouldn't have had a clue about where to start finding off market deals and marketing myself or how to organize our business without the training Shenoah and Phil organized for us. Sure, there are always going to be gaps in education; but, I think those who truly want it bad enough will find ways to fill them in.
Know that the Grove's work has made a difference in our lives and we appreciate all they've done for us very much. We bought our duplex off the MLS at full price with a buyer's agent before we went through the Big Dog program. A few months after we went through the Big Dog program, we were able to buy our homestead without a realtor. Investing is not easy; but, with the knowledge in the Grove's program, I've made money passing mobile home leads to someone who buys mobile homes, and (soon to close) flipped a house. With their education and guidance, I've put myself in a position to make meaningful and mutually beneficial relationships with several successful investors in town and across state lines. I've made some great friends to. Yes, the cost is money; but, with tenacity I can always make more money. I can never make more time or avoid headaches which is how the Grove's very organized program adds value.BOTTOM LINE: I could have continued poking around the internet to figure it out myself, I could have overpaid for a property and then over-improved and lost money as most new investors tend to do; but, with the education and network the Groves have built, I avoided those time sinks and headaches.
Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:
Is there really some aspect of real estate or finance that goes with some 50K guru program that I'm not aware of? I've already done a 25% brain dump on BP, that's free.
You've done a brain dump; but, is it presented in an organized, easy to follow fashion that someone can pick up and get started with?
So if I question someone spending $50000 to become a "Big Dog" I am a hater ?
There are many seasoned investors asking relevant questions on this thread with decades of experience and/or thousands of posts and respect on this site. The 3 advocates so far all have less than 20 posts
I and many of people on BP have helped scores of people for free and even if they went out and made 50k of mistakes they would be even .
I do not know Phil it his program and my only experience was someone sent me some videos questioning his information on HUD homes which was years outdated do to system changes within the HUD system. If you want to know how I know the system has changed ! I have bought several hundred of them without the help of a guru
Originally posted by @Brent Mott:
The smartest way to purchase a luxury car is through a lease. Cars are not an investment, they are a way to enjoy success.
So my neighbor has an Escalade and a Lexus in the driveway but need to post date a check to by some football tickets from me. Did you really believe nice cars equal success ?
Originally posted by @Richard C.:
Originally posted by @David Dachtera:
It also prevents issues with lenders complaining "you already have too many mortgages outstanding".
It does nothing of the kind.
How do you figure, Richard?
If my entities average one loan per property and I have two or three properties in each entity, but hold none of those properties / loans in my own name nor am I personally liable for them (non-recourse), how can a bank complain that -I- have too many mortgages outstanding? (Hint: -I- have none, and my entities are not me.)
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Originally posted by @Nathan Rice:
Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:
Is there really some aspect of real estate or finance that goes with some 50K guru program that I'm not aware of? I've already done a 25% brain dump on BP, that's free.
You've done a brain dump; but, is it presented in an organized, easy to follow fashion that someone can pick up and get started with?
Very good point, that's the issue with forums, readers have to search to pull the gold nuggets out. What would you say if there was one site where the basics of real estate were laid out along with investor strategies relating to the fundamentals of real estate? What if that was provided on the basis of pay what you want to, in other words, if you thought it was valuable information, you could donate whatever, if you were dead broke pay nothing then, maybe after you profited you might decide to say thanks! That is what a real teacher would do, IMO.
What if information were laid out in an "elearning" format, just as schools taught subjects without any hype? As if real university administrators had input to class information and a curriculum of subjects with emphasis pointing toward real estate investing, like general business subjects such as law, marketing, applicable economics, finance and accounting? What if you had access to different types of contracts, their structure and contracting requirements?
What if other coaches, instructors or, dare we say....gurus, agreed to having their information subjected to compliance matters in real estate and then they shared ideas and systems for investors? What if they put out information that you could actually rely on?
What if teachers or instructors were vetted as to education, experience and operational knowledge, would that help you learn proper techniques of operating and investing in real estate?
Just asking questions for opinions, if searching public forums is too hard, would these aspects help you learn?
Save your guru money, it's coming! :)
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Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:
Save your guru money, it's coming! :)
Count me in Bill.
Originally posted by @J Scott:
Originally posted by @Brent Mott:
The smartest way to purchase a luxury car is through a lease. Cars are not an investment, they are a way to enjoy success.
Ummm...you were quoting Warren Buffett in your previous post...what do you think he would say about leveraging depreciating assets...
In my experience (and I have a little bit), leveraging depreciating assets is what people do when they can't afford the asset outright, when they want to appear rich or when they don't know any better...
I think Brent's point may have been that (auto) leases are a deductible business expense (at the end, you don't own it, you return it) while (auto) purchase loans may be difficult to deduct fully unless it is somehow an income producing asset of the business entity. Consult your tax accountant - I am not one.
Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:
Save your guru money, it's coming! :)
Guess what, Bill? It's already here! Been here since January of 2011. It's called, "Renatus".
Originally posted by @David Dachtera:
I think Brent's point may have been that (auto) leases are a deductible business expense (at the end, you don't own it, you return it) while (auto) purchase loans may be difficult to deduct fully unless it is somehow an income producing asset of the business entity. Consult your tax accountant - I am not one.
Both leased and owned vehicles can be used for deductions...
Leased vehicles can deduct the lease costs; owned vehicles can deduct standard mileage rates (or actual costs).
And unless he's using the car strictly for business use, he's only allowed a pro-rated deduction on the lease costs.
I'm not saying that the math might not work in favor of leasing (will depend on a lot of factors), but in my experience, wealthy people generally just pay cash for their vehicles and other depreciating assets. That's just my experience...your (leased or owned) mileage may vary... :-)
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That's funny.
And, your obligations to pay are other loans is the main issue, being non-recourse is totally irrelevant. Suggesting that loans in your LLC's name isn't you for the purpose of giving financial disclosure is just ludicrous. That is bank fraud.
I hope that isn't being taught anywhere, but wouldn't be surprised if it was. :)
Originally posted by :
I hope that isn't being taught anywhere, but wouldn't be surprised if it was. :)
I always find it interesting that the threads with the most disinformation about real estate and investing are those about guru trainers...and most of the bad information is coming from the students who are supporting these trainers.
Kinda ironic if the fact that the vast majority of people who pay for these training don't succeed is directly related to the fact that they're getting bad information...who'da thunk?!
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When you own a lot of assets you don't want people suing you and attaching your assets
There is a concept of equity stripping in asset protection strategies where you don't own free and clear properties; you have 60 to 70% loan to value loans on investment Properies
You utilize asset protection strategies like family limited partnerships FLPs where you own one per cent but control everything
All it takes is a couple lawsuits to pay great attention to asset protection
Owning notes that are performing I think are a lot better than owning cash flow properties
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
That means that if he totals the car and can't recover the value from the insurance company, he can just stop paying on the car loan and the lender is the one that would have to eat the loss.
In other words, if I were you, I'd never loan that guy money! :-)
Originally posted by @J Scott:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
That means that if he totals the car and can't recover the value from the insurance company, he can just stop paying on the car loan and the lender is the one that would have to eat the loss.
In other words, if I were you, I'd never loan that guy money! :-)
Slightly more charitably, he may mean that insurance companies are more likely to total and pay out on a car with a lien against it (because they have another party to help hold them accountable), where they might hold out/lowball when faced with an individual owner who has no loan.
Which is plausible, to me. Insurance companies are about the most rational of all economic actors.
Originally posted by @David Dachtera:
Originally posted by @Richard C.:
Originally posted by @David Dachtera:
It also prevents issues with lenders complaining "you already have too many mortgages outstanding".
It does nothing of the kind.
How do you figure, Richard?
If my entities average one loan per property and I have two or three properties in each entity, but hold none of those properties / loans in my own name nor am I personally liable for them (non-recourse), how can a bank complain that -I- have too many mortgages outstanding? (Hint: -I- have none, and my entities are not me.)
Again, banks won't make conventional loans to a business entity, and banks that will make loans to a business entity (portfolio lenders) won't care how many properties you have.
As anyone who has lots of property loans will tell you, there's no easy way to get around the "too many loans" problem that conventional lenders have...you just don't go conventional after 4 (or 10) loans.
These are the types of things that students of guru programs often won't learn (or will get bad information about), because the people teaching these programs often haven't done enough real deals to actually experience the nuances of the rules and regulations.
Originally posted by @David Dachtera:
Originally posted by @Richard C.:
Originally posted by @David Dachtera:
It also prevents issues with lenders complaining "you already have too many mortgages outstanding".
It does nothing of the kind.
How do you figure, Richard?
If my entities average one loan per property and I have two or three properties in each entity, but hold none of those properties / loans in my own name nor am I personally liable for them (non-recourse), how can a bank complain that -I- have too many mortgages outstanding? (Hint: -I- have none, and my entities are not me.)
Jason explains above, and Bill below.
Hint - this is another of those times where your hideously expensive Ren-crap-us training has failed you. You should try to get a refund.
Originally posted by @J Scott:
Originally posted by @Brent Mott:
The smartest way to purchase a luxury car is through a lease. Cars are not an investment, they are a way to enjoy success.
Ummm...you were quoting Warren Buffett in your previous post...what do you think he would say about leveraging depreciating assets...
In my experience (and I have a little bit), leveraging depreciating assets is what people do when they can't afford the asset outright, when they want to appear rich or when they don't know any better...
I just wanted to point out that you could lease the car from an entity such as an LLC and then therefore write it off on your taxes.
Originally posted by @J Scott:
I'm now aware that lots (most) people have no personal knowledge or experience with truly "wealthy people" and how they do things. You might think someone is wealthy from their assets or make assumptions about their businesses. Working up close and personal with really wealthy people, getting privy to their finances and assets, seeing how they manage their time (and personal staff) is truly eye opening. It's kind of a joke but about ten years ago my friends and I starting referring to real wealth as $50M+. I've worked for and with about 6 such people. Santa Barbara is full of them. 2 of them you would have no way of knowing their wealth from appearance, The whole family drives Pruis beaters. Before that, they drove VW Rabbits. Into the ground. They sleep on mattresses on the floor. Old hippies die hard
You have worked in tech and know the SV crowd so you know what I'm talking about. None of them lease cars. They pay cash for everything, Their real estate and other business use leverage like no one's business, but they don't finance consumer goods.