Anatomy of a "Guru"

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Anatomy of a "Guru"

Mooro El
Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 87 posts · 19 votes

I have been wholesaling since the beginning of the year, but I am still at the point where I have not closed a deal as yet, and looking forward to the day when I can write a post in the "Success stories" section of this site. With that said, this forum post isn't coming from a point of view of an experienced investor but I have seen a little bit of what this business has to offer via networking, etc.

Let me get to the point here... (and I would love to hear others chime in to help answer my question...)

My question is: What makes a guru a guru??

I have read a few posts on the blog and a couple of member blogs here and there and it seems like people say "a guru is someone that tries to upsell you"...

But doesn't anyone that's in the selling business (houses, shoes, cars, appliances, whatever) do that too? And if not an upsell, isn't there always going to be a low (or free), mid-level and high cost option of a product to make it available to everyone? And won't that higher cost option always come with better amenities than the others? I think of the example of a car company. Is not the Acura an upsell for a Honda? Or the Audi A8 and upsell from the Audi A4? From what I've read in some sources, an upsell is a marketing tactic to get people to go with your company. There's a guru that I hear speak sometimes that has a three-offer system and she states "They never think to not pick one of the three offers" and they sell.

And then I've read other peoples opinions state "a guru is someone that tries to sell you courses and bootcamps".

But there are people on here who do that and they wouldn't necessarily be considered "gurus"...

Is the simple fact that they are selling a course what makes them bad or is it the fact that their course is going for the infamous as @Joshua D. loves to say humorously " for only $997!!"? Or is someone that's selling a course for $97 a guru as well?

Others will say that a guru is someone who has coaching students and charging them hundreds of dollars per month. But there are lots and lots of people out here who have coaching students. What makes them any different than gurus? Is anyone that teaches people how to do something involving real estate a guru or does it have to be that more than 51% of their income is from selling?

Keep in mind that I am NOT guru friendly and have had my share of "cheap $997" courses and 2-day "all-inclusive" workshops that contained much less informational value than what could be found in a 2 hour search session here at BiggerPockets... So I am quite snake-oil saleman (or as my father would say "flim-flam artist") ADVERSE and wish I would have known about the real quality of this site back in January and I'm certain I would have closed a deal by now. But, on the other end of the spectrum, there were people in those guru coaching programs who are/were making money.

But hey, "you live and you learn, and then you get Luvs"...

If I would have never done those other things, I would have never learned about the REIA's or BiggerPockets, or at least not as soon. So it may be a zero-sum game when my investing career is over 100 years from now, but who knows...

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Bill Gulley
Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
12y

One difference might be that the car salesman will try to move you up to a car that runs, RE gurus try to charge more for more of the same that you can't drive in reality.

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  • Bill Gulley
    Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    One difference might be that the car salesman will try to move you up to a car that runs, RE gurus try to charge more for more of the same that you can't drive in reality.

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  • Matt B.
    Investor · Vincennes, IN · Member since 2013 · 223 posts · 108 votes
    12y

    I am actually guru friendly, though I do get tired of the up sells. I try to hit at least one workshop, bootcamp, seminar, what have you a year. They range from a couple hundred to several thousand dollars. There are some that I have wasted 3 days of my life at, that I will never get back, and others that one idea generated a return 100 times over.

    That being said, I would gladly pay for info that will decrease my learning curve and mistakes on a subject. I paid close to $10k a year for college, to start out making about $30k a year. I made that much in one of my first real estate deals after taking a 3 day bootcamp.

    I can never stop learning, but if I don't apply it I've wasted my time.

    2Reply
  • Rick H.
    Lender · Greater LA/Orange County area, CA · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y

    @Matt Buckels pretty well said it.

    I always thought of gurus as mystics from middle eastern or Indian culture. Sitar music would be playing in the background and the yogi would often drive a Rolls Royce, one of a fleet in their possession.

    Apparently the term is now applied to people, such as real estate educators, who claim they know something that you need to know or will suffer without such knowledge; the formula to the secret sauce, if you will.

    I learned that many, many of the people who claim that they've 'arrived' are self-delusional, pathological liars, will tell you that they've done such-and-such and keep a straight face when, in fact, they couldn't find their way out of a paper bag with a portable Garmin GPS. I've met quite a few of these folks, even was a guest speaker for a number of them.

    For me, I had difficulty figuring out a way to get value from training. However, I've made some incredible money from knowledge gained from others (and paid for) but how do I keep from getting burned by the Dream Merchants?

    I've created a few questions that serve as a BS Detector and will quickly flag into the orange or red range when near a fraud. First of all, I ask about details of the last deal they personally did. If it's more than six (6) months ago (or the last full economic cycle) it'll be obvious. Also, someone with only a couple years in the business hasn't been through enough to be tested. Like getting relationship advice from a 15 years old. Maybe there's some knowledge, but little experience and certainly no tempered wisdom.

    Nowadays, I've been around long enough to have heard many, if not most, of the stories about the people who claim to know something worth selling. When my nose twitches, it means something ain't right.

    A good friend of mine tells me: "If you really want to know about someone's character, don't listen to what they say; watch their feet."

    1Reply
  • Mooro El
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 87 posts · 19 votes
    12y

    @Bill Gulley , yeah, usually the upsell isn't worth much more, if anything than the other levels of products.

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  • Brandon TurnerPro Member
    Investor · Maui, HI · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y

    Yeah, it's a tough line, cause there is no line. It's all opinion. In my mind, a guru could simply be someone who teaches, thus most of us bloggers could be considered a guru. However, we generally are referring to the ones who prey on people's fears (It's the Death of Real Estate! Oh No!) and the ones who sell outdated, illegal, or dangerous info to unsuspecting people.

    Also, it's not always the Guru's info that is faulty - it's their presentation. Just like a car salesman... there is a need for cars, but if you find a car salesman who lies, breaks the law, cheats, steals etc... we run. It's not the industry we run from, just the tactics. Most of the RE gurus actually have great information - and most of us are here because of them, somehow (most of the big RE books out there and TV shows are all from "gurus" - so it's not all bad.)

    Check out this post also for an interesting take on what the bad guru might look like.

    Anyways, those are my 2 cents!

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  • Mooro El
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 87 posts · 19 votes
    12y

    I completely agree with you @Matt B. that you can never get too much education on your area of focus to make sure you stay sharp. However, has there ever been a guru that taught you anything that couldn't be found here on Bigger Pockets?

    @Rick H. , those are some very good tips! I will most certainly be using those BS detector questions the next time I am in the presence of a suspected guru. And your good friend is very right! Actions always speak louder than words!

    0Reply
  • Mooro El
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 87 posts · 19 votes
    12y

    @Brandon Turner that's a great point about tactics vs. content. Because the gurus that I have met in my short REI career have had some pretty decent content as far as I can tell from their free presentations used as bait to get me to sign up for a 2-day workshop. :-\

    I just kick myself when I think about all of the thousands that I and countless others could have saved when I realized that just about everything I've ever heard from a guru, I've heard here on BP for free (or $15, which is almost free anyway.)

    Everytime I meet someone at a REIA, one of the first questions I ask them is, "Are you on Bigger Pockets?". If they say "no", I say "well, why the hell not?? It's free for crying out loud"... Lol.

    1Reply
  • Bill Gulley
    Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    @Mooro El Question to calibrate your BS meter, I haven't made a Fannie Mae loan for years, would that mean I don't know Fannie Mae lending? Really?

    My BS meter goes off when I hear a marketing agenda disguised as advice.

    Experience comes in different packages, the more the better, but your advisor needs to stay current on topics too. Just because someone did 500 deals in the old days won't make them an expert today. Many may have done 100 deals this past year, but someone who does things wrong and never knows it, never gets hung, may advise you based on their success (and luck).

    I'd suggest also you calibrate your guru meter based on ethics in business, knowing what is legal and customary as well as fair dealings expected will be a good gauge in selecting an advisor in any business.

    I'm not totally anti-guru, most I see passing themselves off as experts (self appointed experts at that) have no business attempting to go where they go sometimes. Selling the hype, the sizzle but no meat. It's tough to weed the bad ones out, you really need to know before you can make a determination and if you knew, you probably won't be seeking their advice. Many may have good ideas, the problem is how they implement those ideas.

    One old saying I found to be very true is that figures lie and liars figure. Very true. :)

    1Reply
  • Tracy RoycePro Member
    Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2012 · 172 posts · 34 votes
    12y

    I'm still wondering how one of my word alerts (Royce) brought me to this thread?? In any case, I'm not against the "guru game." At some point these guys and gals get to a point where they've learned the ropes enough and run an RE business and stop giving their advice away for free. I've spent about a college tuition in RE education and can say it's worth every penny. The upsells and constant push for more is a bit much though. When you've MADE the money back you spent on the course applying THAT method, then it's been useful. Otherwise, it's a giant dog and pony show for every hopeful starry-eyed dreamer out there.

    On the other hand, I had a gal seek me out specifically, I liked her drive, and begin to mentor her a bit. She had already spent about $10K in materials from local and national gurus, and not made a dime from it. Within a few months of my help, she had already closed a deal and had a few more in the pipeline. Then she and one of my (now past) partners found a loophole in my contract and siphoned the money I was going to make out of my wallet (because I charged nothing, only a portion of her CLOSED deals for my time, and I was confident she'd make money). How's that for a "Thanks and You're Welcome". So, however you want to label it, teacher, guru, mentor...who was the smarter "guru" in that situation??? Welcome to America kids.

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  • Mooro El
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 87 posts · 19 votes
    12y

    @Tracy Royce , it's because one of the people who responded used the brand name "Rolls Royce" in his comments. Lol.

    You make some valid points. There is some validity to wanting to get paid for your time and resources at some point, but most of the ones I've encountered just seem to not be able to help themselves from doing the scummy tactics (upsell, hard sell, emotional trickery, etc) but kudos to the ones that don't do those things that I haven't met yet!

    And wow!!! That's very unfortunate that you were taken advantage of like that by someone that you were just trying to help. That just goes to show that no matter how nice and kind you are, there will be someone out there somewhere who wants to exploit that kindness. I really hope you were able to sue their slimy @$$es for every dime that you deserved!!!

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  • Tracy RoycePro Member
    Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2012 · 172 posts · 34 votes
    12y

    For what's it's worth Mooro I'm a big believer in the power of attraction, coupled with action. Be forthright about what you want, and act/speak accordingly. You'll put yourself in a position to attract what you need and be closing deals soon enough. If that means people, they'll show up for you to.

    As for the exploiters, hey, lesson learned. To be honest it was the kick in the a** I needed :)

    Cheers.

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  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    12y

    First, congrats on sticking it out nearly a year despite not yet doing your first deal. Persistence is a great trait to have in this business, and it sounds like you're on the right track!

    My personal opinion of the "guru" thing is that someone is a guru if they're selling information for more than it's worth. Of course, there's no quantitative measure for that when you're evaluating across large groups of people -- so, in my opinion, it's more of a "I know it when I see it..." sort of thing.

    I'm sure there are some people I'd consider gurus that you might not...and vice versa. But, that's just inherent in the definition I've chosen...

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  • Bill Gulley
    Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by Tracy Royce:
    For what's it's worth........ I'm a big believer in the power of attraction, coupled with action. Be forthright about what you want, and act/speak accordingly. You'll put yourself in a position to attract what you need ........ As for the exploiters, hey, lesson learned. To be honest it was the kick in the a** I needed :)

    Cheers.

    My kind of investor! I can kick azz, not really into that Tracy but okay, I totally agree with your philosophy.

    Gotta watch who ya snag for a partner, it's easy to be had, now, I might suggest you consider an older partner who is more experienced that can carry on in a partnership arrangement based on a true meeting of the minds and loyalty with benefits for both, you just wouldn't have those games ;-))

    1Reply
  • Shariyf GreviousPro Member
    Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2012 · 135 posts · 80 votes
    12y

    Here is a rant by something Matt said, that I see gurus say often. This is not towards you Matt but just the concept

    @Matt B. You mentioned that you paid 10k/year at college to get a starting job to only make 30k/year.

    Did you pay 40k CASH for your College education? If you did, Wow thats amazing!

    (Side note: most Colleges are 20k/yr = 100k degree, so paying 100k in cash is even more amazing.)

    Because most people I know GET A LOAN for college....but Guru's always want to use this intellectually dishonest comparison of FINANCING education versus giving someone CASH.

    We're not talking about the VALUE...of course we see VALUE in REI education...we're talking about the FINANCING OF IT.

    Most people have less than 3k in their bank account and basically are one blown-transmission, medical emergency, or roof leak from being broke yet some damn guru want to you to trust them and spend YOUR VERY last on their program. "Oh you heard about people getting burned in these type programs, thats those OTHER guys, not me....you can trust me (gold tooth smile)"

    Thats my problem with gurus...is that they go after people already destitute and desperate and they use their HOPE of a better life to sell them their system. Then use intellectually dishonest analogies like the FINANCING of College compared with maxing out your credit cards, borrowing the money from trusted friends/family, or taking your vey last out of your bank account. To invest in a system that has no accountability check system like federal accreditation and no ability to really gauge is this person different from the other person who is a definite scam artist. The reason why your degree is not just a piece of paper Matt is because you went to a federally accredited college. But if you give a so called mentor/guru 5 - 10K and don't get what you expect out of it....guess what you're S.O.L.

    Gurus aren't chasing people with 100K in the bank account by putting ads in Barrons, Wall Street Journal, Investors Business Daily or Financial Times. No they're putting ads on local radio and late night slots that between weight loss and Shamwow infomercials. Why is that...because they are targeting people who are making LESS than 80k per year. That is the target time for that demographic. I would venture to think that most of the people are making less than 50K and probably have less than 2K in the bank to their name

    I love BiggerPockets, and I love the people on here but you can find certain gurus who are now charging 97/mo and/or 3-10k for coaching that have ASKED the same questions on here less than 2 years ago. And just the idea that somebody has figured out this ENTIRE magical system in less than 2 years makes me believe, its probably not that hard anyway.

    Iv'e actually seen a known guru/mentor COMPLAINING about gurus and their fees when seeking information on BiggerPockets to turn around and become one themselves.

    On top of all of that, all of them have the SAME exact key wording, webinars, price model, single splash page, email style etc etc....If you are trying to seperate yourself as a unique and different business than someone else in your industry i

    1Reply
  • Mooro El
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 87 posts · 19 votes
    12y

    Yeah, I agree with that concept completely, @Tracy Royce ! It's always best to just be open and honest with people you are doing business with. Thanks for the well wishes! Glad everything worked out well!

    Best of luck with your business! :)

    And @J Scott that's an understandable position to have. A guru is a "user-defined" value I supposed.

    And thanks on the kudos, I am definitely not going to quit. My desire to be a successful investor is way too strong to give up no matter how long it takes! By the way, your site is awesome! The way you analyze every deal is very inspiring and just provides concrete evidence so there's no way someone can question anything you say. As someone that is very analytical and number-minded, I would like to do that same thing with my deals once they start coming as well! (If that's alright with you that is...)

    I agree @Bill Gulley . It is very crucial to watch who you partner with and to make sure that they trustworthy. I think I may shy away from partnering for a while for that very reason until I can figure out a good way to vet potential partners.

    That's a very true statement you made @Shariyf Grevious . Federal accreditation of a university is A LOT more trustworthy than some guy saying he's "done hundreds of deals" and can "make you wealthy beyond your wildest dreams" with only one or two success stories to base this statement on.

    I'm beginning to develop the philosophy that if I can't find it here on Bigger Pockets, then it must not be worth it. Lol. I'll stick with BP for all my educational needs. Two nights ago, I had two questions and I found the answer for them in less than 20 minutes by doing a forum search... What's not to love about this place?

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  • Tracy RoycePro Member
    Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2012 · 172 posts · 34 votes
    12y

    @Bill Gulley - it was a great partnership, actually. I think his financial situation changed though and it changed his morality meter. I wouldn't be where I am today without him/other partners so, although I don't want to conduct business with them as partners anymore, I'm at least able to say it was mutually beneficial while it lasted.

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  • Bill Gulley
    Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by Tracy Royce:
    @Bill Gulley - it was a great partnership, actually. I think his financial situation changed though and it changed his morality meter. I wouldn't be where I am today without him/other partners so, although I don't want to conduct business with them as partners anymore, I'm at least able to say it was mutually beneficial while it lasted.

    If you can say that looking back then it was a better partnership than many and worthwhile, a hard road to travel is better than no road at all. :)

    1Reply
  • Dev HornPro Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Arlington, TX · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    It's like p*rnography - you KNOW a guru when you SEE one.

    Generally, when it's all about a GUY and people idolize that GUY, they are dealing with a guru. They might even pay some stupid sum of money to go hang out at a hotel for a weekend where the GUY actually FINALLY shows up to one of his own events. If you want to pay dumb money to hang out with someone who HAD a reality TV show (Flip this or that), that's cool - just call it what it is - paying to hang out with a third-tier TV star. Rarely do the people who pay for those things actually DO real estate investing.

    That's my concern with "gurus". They teach you enough to where you are too scared to do anything without more info from the guru (or really, the people that WORK FOR the guru, as you RARELY see the actual guru). Make no doubt - they EXPECT a 98% FAILURE RATE among their students. That's got to concern you if you're thinking of giving them your hard earned $$$.

    At some point, you realize, this is NOT rocket science and you either get off your butt and go do it, or you move on to some other infomercial-inspired dream.

    1Reply
  • Michael Quarles
    Flipper/Rehabber · Bakersfield, CA · Member since 2008 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y

    What makes a Guru and Guru..... Interesting question...

    I think there are three main components that are required;

    1. Knowledge of or the afforded presumption of knowledge of the ability to manifest a desired outcome.
    2. A desire to communicate ones knowledge.
    3. A participant willing to receive that knowledge.

    Almost sounds like the components required of a mentor mentee relationship.

    Most get caught up negatively labeling the Guru status due to the hype factor and dream factor of both participants.

    Two components that when put together by unscrupulous individuals can cause disaster.

    There are some very good Gurus out there and then there are some that aren't so great. And there are some very good students and some who have more expectation then desire.

    I never had a Guru. I wish I had... Would have saved me a bunch.

    Every time I look at my key ring I am reminded that I too and one of those people with higher expectations then desire.

    On my key ring I have two gym membership bar code tags, a key to the front door of the MMA gym I use to go to and If I go into my garage there sits my complete home gym.

    Am I frustrated at the gyms or equipment salesman NOT at all. Am I frustrated with myself NOT yet.

    Our whole society is built around buying crap we don't need and probably wont use. So we shouldn't blame some guy or gal who charges us what we agree to pay, even when ridiculous, for tools and information one could find here, mostly for free.

    And if there is a dreamer out there don't squash their imagination of greatness. After all they may have the next great cure.

    1Reply
  • Bill Gulley
    Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    Michael, I can buy all you said, but I'd have an issue with the guy and company who sold be equipment that had serious design flaws and fell on top of me while benching 250. :)

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  • Matt B.
    Investor · Vincennes, IN · Member since 2013 · 223 posts · 108 votes
    12y

    @Shariyf Grevious nothing personally taken. No I did not pay cash for college. Had too many years of student loans. Was in the culinary world. Too many hours, for too little pay.

    I get what everyone is saying and generally agree. There are a ton of people giving bad info at seminars, that were probably hustling burgers shortly before. I have paid for those dog and pony shows several times over. Probably more than a majority of people here. But there is a ton of good info out there, that I would still gladly pay for.

    We've bought plenty of bad real estate deals, too. But I am not going to stop buying real estate just because of the few bad deals.

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  • Mooro El
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 87 posts · 19 votes
    12y

    @Dev Horn, wow. I had no idea that expected failure rate was so low! That's very unfortunate. I wish more people knew about Bigger Pockets... I'm sure there would be a lot less failures...

    @Michael, those are some pretty good points. There are some slimy gurus out there but there are also some who don't charge absurd amounts fir their products and actually provide actionable content with the continuous upselling. I know one like that who only charges $40/month for her content, which I subscribe to. She's pretty good. Although her one-on-one coaching is around $8k, the stuff she gives out for $40 is still pretty good.

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  • Mooro El
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 87 posts · 19 votes
    12y

    @Matt Buckels, that's true. There's lots of stuff out there and I guess it's just a situation of Caveat Emptor, as with all things that you buy...

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  • Bryan L.
    Residential Real Estate Agent · Cookeville, TN · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 948 votes
    12y

    I've recently come across a couple of different gurus who are selling courses and/or boot-camps on how to be a guru. Starting to get a little slimy there.

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  • Mooro El
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 87 posts · 19 votes
    12y

    @Bryan L., that sounds REALLY slimy... And I'm guessing this guru was charging double for that because he's a "super-guru", since he's giving how-to sessions now. Or maybe even that price squared since he is probably touting exponential returns on the investment for his slimy systems. That just sounds all kinds of wrong there. Hopefully one day these guys will wash the slime off and actually start investing...

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