Is Holton Wise Sale of Quad in Cleveland a Scam? (7809 Franklin)

[Lenza M.]

I have been following the Holton Wise properties for awhile and finally saw one that interested me a few days ago. I am very concerned this might be a scam after @James Wise refused to provide what I believe is basic information that should be given as part of a real estate transaction, and wanted to ask what you guys think.

The property in question is a Quadruplex in Cleveland located at 7809 Franklin Blvd and featured here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkFnuAaENwY

 After watching the video, I wrote to James to inquire about the cash flow of the place and he replied only: "All info on the building is in the video." After watching the video a second time and not finding any mention of expenses I again emailed specifically requesting information on costs of operating the building. He pointed me to episodes of his Real Estate and Analysis show for other properties here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWaflf0vPbEnQ4v3Eyvw9HlbY8T7ZNLQE

In all of these videos James has a breakdown of operating costs for the building so he clearly recognizes that this is important information. For example here:

After watching the video for 7809 Franklin a 3rd time, I pointed out that I could not find any of this expense information and requested that he point me to the timestamp of the information in the video in case I was missing it. No reply.

Days later I sent a follow up email asking if the vacant unit mentioned in the video had been filled and if he had 2019 or YTD income information for the property. I was told "Again. All information that is available has been put in the video." Apparently information on how often tenants are paying rent is unavailable?

So, while I usually like to be very sure of an offer before submitting it, I sent James a full price offer assuming that I would be able to get documentation during a contingency period. My offer was rejected in 10 minutes and I was told that no document contingency would be acceptable.

So, I am left a bit bewildered -- what I am missing here? It seems like if you are trying to sell an income generating property but refuse to disclose any information about how much income the property in generating, you are probably running a scam of some kind? I thought James was a respectable no-nonsense person? What do you guys think, is this normal?

[James Wise]

Originally posted by @Lenza M.:

I have been following the Holton Wise properties for awhile and finally saw one that interested me a few days ago. I am very concerned this might be a scam after @James Wise refused to provide what I believe is basic information that should be given as part of a real estate transaction, and wanted to ask what you guys think.

The property in question is a Quadruplex in Cleveland located at 7809 Franklin Blvd and featured here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkFnuAaENwY

 After watching the video, I wrote to James to inquire about the cash flow of the place and he replied only: "All info on the building is in the video." After watching the video a second time and not finding any mention of expenses I again emailed specifically requesting information on costs of operating the building. He pointed me to episodes of his Real Estate and Analysis show for other properties here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWaflf0vPbEnQ4v3Eyvw9HlbY8T7ZNLQE

In all of these videos James has a breakdown of operating costs for the building so he clearly recognizes that this is important information. For example here:

After watching the video for 7809 Franklin a 3rd time, I pointed out that I could not find any of this expense information and requested that he point me to the timestamp of the information in the video in case I was missing it. No reply.

Days later I sent a follow up email asking if the vacant unit mentioned in the video had been filled and if he had 2019 or YTD income information for the property. I was told "Again. All information that is available has been put in the video." Apparently information on how often tenants are paying rent is unavailable?

So, while I usually like to be very sure of an offer before submitting it, I sent James a full price offer assuming that I would be able to get documentation during a contingency period. My offer was rejected in 10 minutes and I was told that no document contingency would be acceptable.

So, I am left a bit bewildered -- what I am missing here? It seems like if you are trying to sell an income generating property but refuse to disclose any information about how much income the property in generating, you are probably running a scam of some kind? I thought James was a respectable no-nonsense person? What do you guys think, is this normal?

 It's probably a scam......RUN!

[James Wise]

Originally posted by @James Wise:

Originally posted by @Lenza M.:

I have been following the Holton Wise properties for awhile and finally saw one that interested me a few days ago. I am very concerned this might be a scam after @James Wise refused to provide what I believe is basic information that should be given as part of a real estate transaction, and wanted to ask what you guys think.

The property in question is a Quadruplex in Cleveland located at 7809 Franklin Blvd and featured here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkFnuAaENwY

 After watching the video, I wrote to James to inquire about the cash flow of the place and he replied only: "All info on the building is in the video." After watching the video a second time and not finding any mention of expenses I again emailed specifically requesting information on costs of operating the building. He pointed me to episodes of his Real Estate and Analysis show for other properties here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWaflf0vPbEnQ4v3Eyvw9HlbY8T7ZNLQE

In all of these videos James has a breakdown of operating costs for the building so he clearly recognizes that this is important information. For example here:

After watching the video for 7809 Franklin a 3rd time, I pointed out that I could not find any of this expense information and requested that he point me to the timestamp of the information in the video in case I was missing it. No reply.

Days later I sent a follow up email asking if the vacant unit mentioned in the video had been filled and if he had 2019 or YTD income information for the property. I was told "Again. All information that is available has been put in the video." Apparently information on how often tenants are paying rent is unavailable?

So, while I usually like to be very sure of an offer before submitting it, I sent James a full price offer assuming that I would be able to get documentation during a contingency period. My offer was rejected in 10 minutes and I was told that no document contingency would be acceptable.

So, I am left a bit bewildered -- what I am missing here? It seems like if you are trying to sell an income generating property but refuse to disclose any information about how much income the property in generating, you are probably running a scam of some kind? I thought James was a respectable no-nonsense person? What do you guys think, is this normal?

 It's probably a scam......RUN!

 On a serious note. I implore anyone who's got the slightest bit of curiosity about the "Is this a scam" question posed by my man Lenza to watch the video he shared. After that, go ahead and watch a few of the 80+ episodes of the MLS Search & Analysis Show he shared. In any of those 80+ episodes I teach you how to run numbers and make safe, conservative and accurate cash flow estimations on properties such as these. There is nobody and I mean nobody in this business who's running a more well known and transparent operation than Holton-Wise.

[Brian Garlington]

@Lenza M.        Generally speaking if ANYONE will not be transparent about the income that a property generates, that is a red flag. I assume you have a Realtor that represents you on the buy side in Cleveland so this is something that Realtor could have looked up for you in less than a minute. 

[Calvin Thomas]

The Wise guys seem to on point with their business, so doubtful it's a scam.

[David K.]

@Lenza M., except for taxes (which are actual), I believe James uses estimates and not actual historical numbers when displaying operating expenses in videos. In the example you post above, repairs, vacancy, and capex are all 5% of gross revenue. PM is 10% of gross, but I suppose that also counts as "actual" to the extent HW was the PM. He uses $1,800 for water/sewer as a default estimate for 2BD duplexes, and usually lists in insurance in the 900-range as well. 

So I can't comment on why it wasn't in that particular video you are referencing (modified from normal numbers on water/sewer and insurance to reflect additional units), but I am relatively certain almost all operating expenses in HW videos are estimates and not historical. If you scour a number of the videos, you should see that pattern hold up throughout. 

[James Wise]

Originally posted by @Brian Garlington:

@Lenza M.        Generally speaking if ANYONE will not be transparent about the income that a property generates, that is a red flag. I assume you have a Realtor that represents you on the buy side in Cleveland so this is something that Realtor could have looked up for you in less than a minute. 

 I would agree on that point Brian. Don't see it being a relevant point here though, as the video in question presents all of the income this particular property generates as well as it's fixed expenses. That was followed up by hours upon hours of video content that gives viewers a look into how they can start to account for their variable expenses. 

[James Wise]

Originally posted by @David K.:

@Lenza M., except for taxes (which are actual), I believe James uses estimates and not actual historical numbers when displaying operating expenses in videos. In the example you post above, repairs, vacancy, and capex are all 5% of gross revenue. PM is 10% of gross, but I suppose that also counts as "actual" to the extent HW was the PM. He uses $1,800 for water/sewer as a default estimate for 2BD duplexes, and usually lists in insurance in the 900-range as well. 

So I can't comment on why it wasn't in that particular video you are referencing (modified from normal numbers on water/sewer and insurance to reflect additional units), but I am relatively certain almost all operating expenses in HW videos are estimates and not historical. If you scour a number of the videos, you should see that pattern hold up throughout. 

 Looks like you've been watching a lot of the content Dave. Thanks for the continued viewership.

Folks, let's take this thread and create a learning opportunity for a lot of you who are getting into this business. These properties, they are living, breathing and moving things......The subject property for example. It's got 3 tenants in it and a vacant unit. If you guys think there is some magic report you can read from past ownership that will tell how this property will perform for you, you are dead wrong. Doesn't work that way.

When you start getting into larger buildings that have been run by property management companies historical data becomes more important and a bigger predictor of future performance. Not here though. Not on stuff like this. There is a reason commercial lending institutions don't lend on stuff like this and it falls under residential financing.

You take a building like this 90% of them are privately owned and managed. These types of owners are cash to pocket folks. Sometimes they live in one of the units. Sometimes they keep rents low. Sometimes they leave units empty because they don't have time to renovate them due to their day job. Sometimes they are just lazy or inept. The variables are limitless........This is why we break down what a building like this would look like going forward based upon our experiences and management structure. Having sold over $200 Million worth of this stuff I can say without the slightest doubt that, that's the more accurate predictor of performance than what some Joe DIY did or didn't do.

It's not really as complicated as you guys may think.

You've got your gross income folks. From there you need to deduct your expenses to get an estimate on performance. Fixed expenses are simple

• Insurance
• Taxes

There will be slight variations in those, but more or less they remain consistent. From there you've got to factor in things that happen over the course of owning properties. These things swing with the wind ya'll. Especially when you've got such a small sample size. 3 tenants folks. One of them could get hit by a bus tomorrow....That's 33% of your data. Do you think that means the investment price has shifted 33%? If so, you're wrong. Doesn't work that way. 

As for these variable expenses I've listed some below. 

• Vacancy
• Non payment of rent
• Repairs
• Maintenance
• Utilities

If you'd like to get an understanding of this business you'll need to do what I told Lenza to do and watch the hundreds of hours of content I've produced explaining the intricacies of these variable expenses, what to look out for, why things shift, what bad tenants do, what good tenants do, how to reduce risk, why you can't avoid risk etc.....It's clear Lenza is lost on how this business works right now, if you're in the same boat as him you should check it out. I guarantee you'll learn a thing or two. And most importantly DO NOT do what it looks like Lenza is hoping to do which is valuate a property based upon a pro forma's drawn up by a seller. This is how you get ripped off folks. You need to understand the market, the tenant base and how these things work. In addition you need to do a 3rd party home inspection & get an appraisal. That's what's important. Pro forma's can and are manipulated daily. Not so much with appraisals and private 3rd party inspections.

And Lenza my advice specific to you as you try to get into this business is to speak less and listen more. Running around with no idea what you're doing and hurling scam allegations at people who've spent years doing thousands of transactions building multi million dollar businesses in the industry you're interested in isn't going to get you anywhere.

[Syed H.]

So you think his listing is a scam because he rejected your offer on something that frankly you're not a qualified buyer for? @James Wise puts a lot of educational video up on YouTube. He also does A LOT of deals. Imagine his email box. He can't hand hold everyone to the end of a deal. 

All you need to know is the price & utility breakdown. Everything else is a variable that YOU need to do research on. Even insurance is a variable since there are difference in carriers, risk profiles, and portfolio size. 

[Joseph Cacciapaglia]

I spend most of my time helping investors acquire small multifamily properties. When we're looking at 2-4 unit properties, we almost never get any sort of P&L's. When we're making offers, we know lease amounts, who pays which utilities, and that's usually about it. It's your job as the investor to project the other expenses, based on how you plan to operate the property. During due diligence, we ask for copies of the leases and any available tenant application paperwork. Sometimes we'll get payment history from the tenants, but that's rare. We do expect to be told if any of the tenants are behind on their rents.

[James Wise]

Originally posted by @Syed H.:

So you think his listing is a scam because he rejected your offer on something that frankly you're not a qualified buyer for? @James Wise puts a lot of educational video up on YouTube. He also does A LOT of deals. Imagine his email box. He can't hand hold everyone to the end of a deal. 

All you need to know is the price & utility breakdown. Everything else is a variable that YOU need to do research on. Even insurance is a variable since there are difference in carriers, risk profiles, and portfolio size. 

 I think there is this misconception among people who want to buy properties that Brokers and / or Agents are just running around willing to be their patsy. Like we exist solely for their benefit, whether or not they have hired us to be their Broker and /or Agent. To clarify ya'll. Yes I am a Broker. That doesn't mean that I am YOUR Broker.

A successful Broker or Agent becomes that way by understanding how to utilize their time with profit producing activities for themselves and ultimately their clients. Lenza clearly needs to walk before he can run but he's still crawling. I directed him to hours upon hours of free education and training which coincidentally explains the process one can take to hire me as THEIR Broker if they so chose. Doing anything other than that would be like a Used Car-Salesman trying to network with 5th graders, because EVENTUALLY they will turn 16 and need to buy a car lol.

[Lenza M.]

Originally posted by :

So you think his listing is a scam because he rejected your offer on something that frankly you're not a qualified buyer for? @James Wise puts a lot of educational video up on YouTube. He also does A LOT of deals. Imagine his email box. He can't hand hold everyone to the end of a deal. 

All you need to know is the price & utility breakdown. Everything else is a variable that YOU need to do research on. Even insurance is a variable since there are difference in carriers, risk profiles, and portfolio size. 

No one here actually knows me. So, I see no need to take the bait on the personal attacks. I will simply disregard the comments on my qualifications or level of expertise. I want to stay focused on the issue at hand: when purchasing a $500k property is it normal and reasonable that the seller provide historical income and expense information?

Some replies here, such as the one above, point out that one can work out estimated expenses from the purchase price. This is true, but I think for many reasons it is prudent to consider actual income and expense information before closing a deal. To use the insurance example above, looking at what the existing owner is paying is a great check on if your estimate is correct. Historical expenses will also let you know if there is a significant recurring utility or maintenance bill that that the owner is responsible for: James' video does not mention if the units are individually metered for electricity. Payment history for existing tenants is important to see if they are actually paying the advertised rent. Additionally, in this case there is apparently a unit that has been vacant for many months (a fact James refused to disclose in our email thread). Determining exactly how long the unit has been vacant and why is certainly something to inquire about before closing the deal.

But the key question here is not if historical data is absolutely necessary to consider -- the question is why a seller would REFUSE to provide this information? There is no real concern about wasted effort "hand holding" many potential buyers. You only have to gather the data one time for every potential buyer. And it takes very little effort to gather since you have to do it anyway to prepare taxes. Many brokers include this information upfront so we know at least some buyers are interested in historical data. Is a reasonable seller really going to flat out reject any buyer who wants to see historical data? It seems to me that the only reason to take that position is if you have something to hide.

...or maybe this is not the seller's position at all. It could be that the broker just doesn't care if their client's "hot" property sits on the market for many months since they are busy making big bucks on other deals and will get paid the same on this one no matter how long it sits. A successful broker doesn't need to do what is in the best interest of their client.

[Christopher Toth]

@Lenza M. Work with people who want to work with you. Move on...there is plenty of fish in the sea. And certainly plenty of other opportunities. 

[James Wise]

Originally posted by @Lenza M.:

Originally posted by :

So you think his listing is a scam because he rejected your offer on something that frankly you're not a qualified buyer for? @James Wise puts a lot of educational video up on YouTube. He also does A LOT of deals. Imagine his email box. He can't hand hold everyone to the end of a deal. 

All you need to know is the price & utility breakdown. Everything else is a variable that YOU need to do research on. Even insurance is a variable since there are difference in carriers, risk profiles, and portfolio size. 

No one here actually knows me. So, I see no need to take the bait on the personal attacks. I will simply disregard the comments on my qualifications or level of expertise. I want to stay focused on the issue at hand: when purchasing a $500k property is it normal and reasonable that the seller provide historical income and expense information?

Some replies here, such as the one above, point out that one can work out estimated expenses from the purchase price. This is true, but I think for many reasons it is prudent to consider actual income and expense information before closing a deal. To use the insurance example above, looking at what the existing owner is paying is a great check on if your estimate is correct. Historical expenses will also let you know if there is a significant recurring utility or maintenance bill that that the owner is responsible for: James' video does not mention if the units are individually metered for electricity. Payment history for existing tenants is important to see if they are actually paying the advertised rent. Additionally, in this case there is apparently a unit that has been vacant for many months (a fact James refused to disclose in our email thread). Determining exactly how long the unit has been vacant and why is certainly something to inquire about before closing the deal.

But the key question here is not if historical data is absolutely necessary to consider -- the question is why a seller would REFUSE to provide this information? There is no real concern about wasted effort "hand holding" many potential buyers. You only have to gather the data one time for every potential buyer. And it takes very little effort to gather since you have to do it anyway to prepare taxes. Many brokers include this information upfront so we know at least some buyers are interested in historical data. Is a reasonable seller really going to flat out reject any buyer who wants to see historical data? It seems to me that the only reason to take that position is if you have something to hide.

...or maybe this is not the seller's position at all. It could be that the broker just doesn't care if their client's "hot" property sits on the market for many months since they are busy making big bucks on other deals and will get paid the same on this one no matter how long it sits. A successful broker doesn't need to do what is in the best interest of their client.

 See there you go again my man. You're implying that I somehow hid the fact that there is a vacant unit from you. A large portion of the video was spent discussing the vacant unit. So you are either incapable of retaining information provided to you or you're here on a public forum blatantly lying.

[Jonathan G.]

I’ve read the responses here and feel this post should be a learning opportunity. I don’t / didn’t see any evidence of scamming . There’s was enough data provided for someone to determine if it’s worth the cost of further due diligence. Decide on whether or not you want to purchase the property on what you think it has the potential to achieve. You asked for more information and your request was declined. Does not mean a scam. Use that experience to make a decision moving forward but I don’t think it warrants labeling someone with the potential implication of scam. Commercial real estate is a sophisticated endeavor and hopefully much more can be learned but I vote this post be deleted or at a minimum, the “scam” part be removed from main title.

[Lenza M.]

Originally posted by @Christopher Toth:

@Lenza M. Work with people who want to work with you. Move on...there is plenty of fish in the sea. And certainly plenty of other opportunities. 

This is very good advice. I have never encountered such sharp opposition to any disclosure of any historical financials, so just wanted to get a sense of how common this is.

[Lenza M.]

Originally posted by @Jonathan G.:

I’ve read the responses here and feel this post should be a learning opportunity. I don’t / didn’t see any evidence of scamming . There’s was enough data provided for someone to determine if it’s worth the cost of further due diligence. Decide on whether or not you want to purchase the property on what you think it has the potential to achieve. You asked for more information and your request was declined. Does not mean a scam. Use that experience to make a decision moving forward but I don’t think it warrants labeling someone with the potential implication of scam. Commercial real estate is a sophisticated endeavor and hopefully much more can be learned but I vote this post be deleted or at a minimum, the “scam” part be removed from main title.

More good advice. I agree that putting "scam" in the title (even with the question mark) was a bit hot-headed.

My interpretation of James' position is that there is no opportunity for further diligence on validity of leases (specifically, if they have been paid historically). I feel like historical financials is such a standard in the industry that it is at least a "red flag" to refuse to provide them. Maybe this makes for a better title? 

I actually just tried, but I do not see a way to change the title to "Red Flag in Holton Wise Sale of Quad in Cleveland (7809 Franklin)."

[Josh C.]

@Lenza McElrath

I’m sure he good have been nicer. Although I think he successful in spite of his tact and not because it. But he did give one piece of really solid advice.

That is everything the seller tells you is wrong. Period. You should not care about historical numbers or trailing 12 months or last years financials. Most people when they sell are either doing no maintenance so the expenses will be low or lots of rehab so the number look like trash. Additionally, most small multis are run by small investors and they have tenants in there that have been there a long time and never raised the rents. So the income number is likely low and the maintenance numbers likely zero. And both are wrong. Do your own numbers and you’ll protect yourself.

[Lenza M.]

Originally posted by @Josh C.:

@Lenza McElrath

I’m sure he good have been nicer. Although I think he successful in spite of his tact and not because it. But he did give one piece of really solid advice.

That is everything the seller tells you is wrong. Period. You should not care about historical numbers or trailing 12 months or last years financials. Most people when they sell are either doing no maintenance so the expenses will be low or lots of rehab so the number look like trash. Additionally, most small multis are run by small investors and they have tenants in there that have been there a long time and never raised the rents. So the income number is likely low and the maintenance numbers likely zero. And both are wrong. Do your own numbers and you’ll protect yourself.

Totally agree that relying on unverified information from sellers a face value is not a sound strategy. I never advocated for not doing your own numbers (although James implied that I did). I advocated for transparency from sellers. Historical financials allow you to cross-check your numbers against the seller's and understand the discrepancies. This protects you more than just doing your own numbers alone.

Again: transparency is key. No seller should be allowed to come out here and argue with a straight face that providing LESS information is BETTER for the buyer.

"I'm not letting you know how much rent was actually paid last year because that information would just confuse you about how much of a hot money maker this deal is. The numbers are wrong anyway because, tragically, all of the tenants got hit by a bus last year and so in honor of them I decided to leave one unit vacant in perpetuity. But, these properties are living, breathing and moving things that are all exactly the same, so you should just use your standard assumptions about payment and vacancy rates. If I have to even explain this to you, you are wasting my time and this is not the deal for you."

[Chris Seveney]

@Lenza M.

Ok so I watched the video and did a quick google search. Video clearly shows a vacant unit, also the info graphic on front noted there was also a vacant unit. Quick google search showed owner pays water sewer and maintenance so I would guess each tenant pays utilities, especially considering each unit has its own separate address and hvac system etc in the basement along with laundry so no one would steal my panties.

I found there to be plenty of Info on the video and if I wanted more info I would have MY agent go to the property to confirm pictures and find out any additional info before putting in a bid. If it was something I was going to put an offer on I would go to the property and look at it myself, especially at that price.

As others mentioned even if I had data from the seller I would throw it away as it’s worthless. Only thing I would care about are copies of leases and tenant pay history and who was the PM and see a requests log (which most property owners self manage or have ****** pm’s who do not have this info).

You appear to be approaching this as a commercial multifamily and there is a huge difference in these asset classes, how they are managed and tracked financially.

[James Wise]

Originally posted by @Chris Seveney:

@Lenza M.

Ok so I watched the video and did a quick google search. Video clearly shows a vacant unit, also the info graphic on front noted there was also a vacant unit. Quick google search showed owner pays water sewer and maintenance so I would guess each tenant pays utilities, especially considering each unit has its own separate address and hvac system etc in the basement along with laundry so no one would steal my panties.

I found there to be plenty of Info on the video and if I wanted more info I would have MY agent go to the property to confirm pictures and find out any additional info before putting in a bid. If it was something I was going to put an offer on I would go to the property and look at it myself, especially at that price.

As others mentioned even if I had data from the seller I would throw it away as it’s worthless. Only thing I would care about are copies of leases and tenant pay history and who was the PM and see a requests log (which most property owners self manage or have ****** pm’s who do not have this info).

You appear to be approaching this as a commercial multifamily and there is a huge difference in these asset classes, how they are managed and tracked financially.

 Panty theft is a much bigger problem then most would think.

#Facts

[Chris Seveney]

Did this end up selling ? Didn’t see sales record online 

Originally posted by @James Wise:

Originally posted by @Chris Seveney:

@Lenza M.

Ok so I watched the video and did a quick google search. Video clearly shows a vacant unit, also the info graphic on front noted there was also a vacant unit. Quick google search showed owner pays water sewer and maintenance so I would guess each tenant pays utilities, especially considering each unit has its own separate address and hvac system etc in the basement along with laundry so no one would steal my panties.

I found there to be plenty of Info on the video and if I wanted more info I would have MY agent go to the property to confirm pictures and find out any additional info before putting in a bid. If it was something I was going to put an offer on I would go to the property and look at it myself, especially at that price.

As others mentioned even if I had data from the seller I would throw it away as it’s worthless. Only thing I would care about are copies of leases and tenant pay history and who was the PM and see a requests log (which most property owners self manage or have ****** pm’s who do not have this info).

You appear to be approaching this as a commercial multifamily and there is a huge difference in these asset classes, how they are managed and tracked financially.

 Panty theft is a much bigger problem then most would think.

#Facts

[Lenza M.]

Yes, the video clearly shows there is a vacant unit, but it is from 3 months ago. My interaction with James is from a couple of days ago -- this hot property has yet to be sold. I asked James if the unit was still vacant and for tenant pay history and this is when I was told "All information that is available has been put in the video. If you are not able to make a buying decision based on what you see in the video then this property isn't for you."

Presumably in this case Holton Wise is the "****** pm" that does not have this info available...

[James Wise]

Originally posted by @Lenza M.:

Yes, the video clearly shows there is a vacant unit, but it is from 3 months ago. My interaction with James is from a couple of days ago -- this hot property has yet to be sold. I asked James if the unit was still vacant and for tenant pay history and this is when I was told "All information that is available has been put in the video. If you are not able to make a buying decision based on what you see in the video then this property isn't for you."

Presumably in this case Holton Wise is the "****** pm" that does not have this info available...

 Nope....This is also not true. How long you plan on beating this drum my man? Spend your time trying to grow your business. Good lord.

[James Wise]

Originally posted by @Chris Seveney:

Did this end up selling ? Didn’t see sales record online 

Originally posted by @James Wise:

Originally posted by @Chris Seveney:

@Lenza M.

Ok so I watched the video and did a quick google search. Video clearly shows a vacant unit, also the info graphic on front noted there was also a vacant unit. Quick google search showed owner pays water sewer and maintenance so I would guess each tenant pays utilities, especially considering each unit has its own separate address and hvac system etc in the basement along with laundry so no one would steal my panties.

I found there to be plenty of Info on the video and if I wanted more info I would have MY agent go to the property to confirm pictures and find out any additional info before putting in a bid. If it was something I was going to put an offer on I would go to the property and look at it myself, especially at that price.

As others mentioned even if I had data from the seller I would throw it away as it’s worthless. Only thing I would care about are copies of leases and tenant pay history and who was the PM and see a requests log (which most property owners self manage or have ****** pm’s who do not have this info).

You appear to be approaching this as a commercial multifamily and there is a huge difference in these asset classes, how they are managed and tracked financially.

 Panty theft is a much bigger problem then most would think.

#Facts

Nope still available...Would you like me to send you the last 4 rolling T12's?

....hahahaha Kidding. That would've been one heck of a plot twist hahaha.

[Ben Leybovich]

This was entertaining :)

I did not watch the video. Life's so short, after all. 

@Lenza M. - James sells investment properties in Cleveland; TK. If you don't understand the implications of this, you should likely not be a buyer.

That said, James, as you know I play in the big pond. The rationale you put forward, that because this is not commercial, it's somehow different and expectations for disclosure should be lowered is flawed to the bone. Let me explain my thoughts...

The reason I buy communities and the reason I deal with Berkadia on my debt instead of a local bank is that both the asset and the process are more institutional, rational, and efficient. By contrast, small multifamily is a highly inefficient market.

You teach underwriting to the average, which is the correct way to do it. However, if I want to know the average rent per sq.ft., economic loss, insurance cost, or any other = line-item of OpEx for large multifamily in a given town, there are a number of statistical publications for me to reference. All of these things on an institutional level are much more trackable and transparent.

However, in the small stuff - who the hell knows. You have to be a local operator to really know anything. 

You sell TK investments to out-of-town folks. I would think you would go the extra mile and provide them with the trailing financials to help them make an efficient decision in a highly inefficient market. I can't imagine closing a $20M deal without a whole lot of disclosure. But, for a lot of people, a $50,000 deal is akin a $20M to me.