Advice regarding the neighbors fence

[Carrie Giordano]

I just finished rehabbing a rental and need some advice about a fence. The neighbor has a double lot which puts their backyard next to my front yard. Her yard is enclosed with a very old, metal wire fence (looks like a farm fence.) Not only is it an eyesore but her dog seems to want to attack everyone who pulls in my driveway, which is on the same side as her fence. She swears the dog is nice and it's the old owners fault for being mean to him! I know this dog will be an issue for potential tenants so I am planning to extend a privacy fence as far as the city will allow me. This would basically be a 6ft shadowbox fence until the end of my house and then a 4ft fence for another 12 ft. I spoke with the neighbor about replacing her fence. At first she seemed opposed but then seemed to like the idea of more privacy. She agreed to let me replace the 44ft of her fence with mine if I could secure her fence to it so that her dog cannot escape. My question is, I know I need to get this in writing but am unsure of how to protect myself without scaring her off? She is very defensive of the dog and kind of seems like she could change her mind about the fence and be trouble. Any suggestions on what needs to be written without being overly formal?

[Matt Vogt]

If you're paying for the fence anyhow, why wouldn't you just put up your own fence on your own land? This would avoid any potential issues and would give you complete control over the fence. Seems pretty straight-forward to me.

[Manolo D.]

Why not ask the City about putting a fence on YOUR side? There are more privacy than you think, there is chainlink privacy slat fence which looks ok, vinyl privacy fence which looks better. What you can do on the fence on her backyard that's near your front yard, maybe CL privacy; while having a vinyl privacy on your driveway side. These are cheap and will be worth it. Not a fan of wood.

[Jim Adrian]

You most likely need a permit for the fencing. The new fence need to be on your property no matter what. Then you can do whatever you want with the fence. If is is willing to pay for a portion then you need it in writing. You can even leave her crappy fence up. If you can find the property stakes tp make sure where the property line is. They are buried 6 to 12" down.  I had simular issue and needed to pay a surveyor to come locate and stake the lines for me.

[Katie Neason]

If she is not paying for it and it will be on your property (which it will) I would leave her out of it. I had a similar situation but we were paying to put a fence across the street on the neighbors property to hide their "friendly" vicious dogs and house with boarded up windows. They were very grateful and agreeable for us to pay for a fence for them... and then the fence needed a gate, it had to extend further than we wanted, it had to tie into another fence, etc. etc. With an entitled society "free" means the recipient has the "right" to get what they want the way they want it at someone else's expense. In your situation, I would avoid that all together and build your own fence on your own property. 

[Carrie Giordano]

@Matt Vogt @Manolo D. @Jim Adrian @Katie Neason

 Thank you for your comments, they are definitely making me rethink replacing her fence. The new fence will be permitted but to put a fence on fence I will need a variance which can be very difficult to get in this city which is one of the reasons I would be replacing her fence. The second reason is that my property has 9.5 feet on the side of my house. Her fence is basically right on the property line so if I were to add the shadowbox fence on my side without taking down her fence I would be losing about 4 inches of driveway. I am going to include some pics so you can see how tight the upper part of my driveway already is so I would hate to lose any more space. 

@Manolo D. - I will price out the vinyl to see what the cost difference is, however I already have a portion of wood fence running from the back of the property

@Katie Neason Your experience it what I am afraid of happening! I could absolutely see this woman causing more issues for me.

[Alexander Felice]

That fence looks WAY to close. Based on how close that is I would pay for a survey to find where the REAL property lines are.

I've been down this road before and I went through all the drama and mess with the neighbors and trying to accommodate them only to find out that his precious fence was 100% on MY land. I'm willing to bet you're in a similar position too.

[Jim Adrian]

Great pictures!  I would continue with wood and style for uniformity.  I would find a way to leave her fence alone and let her side look silly.   You many be opening a can of worms messing with the old school fencing. 

[Adam A.]

Alexander is correct about her fence is too close to your property. Each city has it's own codes regarding how far the fence needs to be away from not just the property line but also according to the right of way. 

If it's a small town, I would contact the inspector and usually you have to pay a small fee of $25-$50 for a permit. The inspector would be happy to come out and tell you exactly where your fence needs to be. This way if there is a problem with the neighbor's fence being so close to your property, you got leverage to work it out her amicably with a signature.

Good luck.  

[Manolo D.]

@Carrie Giordano You'll never feel the 4", if you can park on a parking spot at a department store, then that's definitely good enough. I would agree with @Jim Adrian and that is absolutely what I am saying in my first post, leave her fence be and just blame it on the city. If you tear her fence down, she might think that she's part owner of the fence now. Just fence within your property line.

@Adam A. Haha! there is no such thing as a $50 permit in CA, the least you'll pay is 400 when you go out the door.

[JD Martin]

My experience: working with other people on things like this is virtually impossible long-term. Eventually the dog will damage the fence, or your branch will fall on it, and then you will be on the hook for all repairs because "you took down my perfectly good fence". 

I would lose the 4 inches if that's the case. I would also have a good survey done to see if she isn't already encroached on to your property, or, worse, that you end up building the fence on something you don't realize is her property. 

[Adam A.]

@Manolo D.  You're kidding me.. Even for a fence permit!! I just paid $25 in Rossford, OH.

[Bill Gulley]

Yes, check with the city. She may need to apply for the permit as she is replacing an existing fence, you can do it for her and pay for it, but the permit is granted to the owner. 

A survey will be a waste of money, state laws generally set fence lines as a boundary line and you'll have issues attempting to claim or guard against the partition of property due to an existing fence and that fence looks like its been there a long time. 

What you need is a fence agreement, much like a road or common wall agreement that is filed in the public records for both properties. This sets out the cost, insurance or loss issues, costs and maintenance of the common fence. These agreements run with title so future owners assume the agreement. You can pay for the whole thing if you want to and have all responsibilities of ownership even if it is off your property as well as easement necessary on your side and theirs to perform  work. Actually, a good way to go.  It's a fence easement. 

Dogs, that's a lab mix, usually big bark and no bite, but not always, it does have teeth. Get some dog treats, speak softly to the dog, don't tell it no right off the bat, talk and treat the dog when it stops barking. Make friends and carry treats with you. 

When tenants come the dog will bark, okay, approach the dog by yourself and hand over the treat, ask your applicants to walk on in the house. Then you can tell the applicant what a great dog it is, a great watch dog but you simply make friends with the pooch as you just demonstrated. Small kids might be an issue.

Then, OTH, as mentioned above, you have the vicious dog stuff you could report, I'd do that after the fence deal if it was still necessary. Good luck property owner! :)

[Manolo D.]

Adam A. Well, that's not CA. :)

[Carrie Giordano]

@Adam A.

I have spoken to the city regarding the property line and I would have to have it survied to determine the line. I have called several surveyors and the least expensive was $500 to just do the fence line.

From my own measurements I do believe her fence is right on her property line which would be too close according to current standards. However, when I asked the city how she's even allowed to have this awful and was told that this fence is more than likely grandfathered in so I'm not sure if they would make her move it. Also, I would like my fence as close to the edge of my property line as possible so I would worry that if I argue about her placement that I would be forced to put my own fence further than the property line than I would prefer. 

@Jim Adrian thanks! The only issue with uniformity in continuing the fence is that the new fence must have a 25% opening and the current fence has 0% opening. The wood should match and for a rental I would like to avoid the expense of ripping down what is currently there. When the day comes that I decide to sell the property I could see replacing the part of the fence that does not match.

@Manolo D. I think that you are probably right and it would save me the hassle of having to catch up with her to get her to sign anything!

@JD Martin thanks for the feedback. I actually hadn't even thought about the future of the fence and her dog or anything else damaging it. That really gives me something to think about.

[Carrie Giordano]

@Bill Gulley Thanks for the info, I will definitely go the fence easement route if I decide to take her fence down. However, after all of the comments I must say that I am leaning towards not touching her fence. I do agree about the dog and that in time he would also be fine with the tenants if they are nice to him. Unfortunately, not all people like dogs and I have a property manager who handles all of the showings and tenants.