FL MORTGAGE BROKER: Title Insurance, Costs & Fees
Lender · Tampa, FL · Member since 2014 · 543 posts · 168 votes
FL MORTGAGE BROKER: Title Insurance, Costs & Fees
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Tom GimerBusiness Member
DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votesWe cover 7 states so I have to speak in general terms because some fees are permitted in some jurisdictions and some are not. But title fees generally fall into 3 categories:
Settlement-related fees ... these fees are not just for the closing. They are for all the processing work that gets the deal to the table. Coordinating between parties/agents/lenders, researching and adjusting taxes, water, pre-paid and unpaid items, scheduling, getting payoffs, dealing with third party payees, preparing CDs/HUDs, etc. Then of course the "fun" -- the actual closing.
Search/exam fees... these fees are for the title search (often through a third party) as well as the attorney exam of searches and surveys to determine all the steps necessary to get to the table as well as in many cases resolving defects.
Doc prep fees ... these fees would be for preparing the deed and any other instruments required. Subordination, release, corrective deed, opinion letter, etc.
Anybody who is significantly undercutting another title company on fees is short-cutting every single one of these important functions and/or foregoing hard-earned revenue in order to try to get your business in the short term. It's an unsustainable model... just like your Donner Party Buyer Rebates!
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- Lender · Tampa, FL · Member since 2014 · 543 posts · 168 votes8y
Neil from S. FL emailed: can title people give a rebate too buyer?
Actually they can, in the form of Costs and Fees reduction.
If you get into a deal where the buyer/ borrower is short cash to close and you've tapped out Lender To Borrower Credit, have asked the buyer agent and listing agents for realtor rebate and are still coming up short, time to get the Title Company to pitch in.
Usually start with the Closing Fee, then move down the list. Per all the new Federal Laws (i.e. the DODD FRANK ACT), just like consumers are urged to shop lenders, they are urged do the same with Title Companies for the lowest costs and fees, same as you can shop realtors for the biggest Buyer Agent Realtor Rebate savings.
- Lender · Tampa, FL · Member since 2014 · 543 posts · 168 votes8y
Mark from N. FL emailed: doesn't the seller pay title insurance policies and fees?
In FL, generally seller pays the Owner's Title Policy in most counties except for Broward County and Sarasota County.
If you get into a deal where the buyer/borrower is short cash to close, you can shop the Owner's Policy and have the seller then do a seller-to-buyer credit towards closing costs for the amount you can save the seller in Title Insurance and fees elsewhere.
Remember, almost everything in Negotiable in a deal except some Lender Fees
- Lender · Tampa, FL · Member since 2014 · 543 posts · 168 votes8y
@Tom Gimer, we're still waiting on you, a Title Agent, to answer the questions about Title Fees & Costs from the other thread discussion this morning when you chimed in.
Again, on a 500k purchase with a 400k purchase loan involved, can you please give us an estimate breakdown of your title fees, costs and charges, same as you would if a lender were to contact you for a Prelim Draft CD (Closing Disclosure)?
- 8yTom GimerBusiness MemberDMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
We cover 7 states so I have to speak in general terms because some fees are permitted in some jurisdictions and some are not. But title fees generally fall into 3 categories:
Settlement-related fees ... these fees are not just for the closing. They are for all the processing work that gets the deal to the table. Coordinating between parties/agents/lenders, researching and adjusting taxes, water, pre-paid and unpaid items, scheduling, getting payoffs, dealing with third party payees, preparing CDs/HUDs, etc. Then of course the "fun" -- the actual closing.
Search/exam fees... these fees are for the title search (often through a third party) as well as the attorney exam of searches and surveys to determine all the steps necessary to get to the table as well as in many cases resolving defects.
Doc prep fees ... these fees would be for preparing the deed and any other instruments required. Subordination, release, corrective deed, opinion letter, etc.
Anybody who is significantly undercutting another title company on fees is short-cutting every single one of these important functions and/or foregoing hard-earned revenue in order to try to get your business in the short term. It's an unsustainable model... just like your Donner Party Buyer Rebates!
Gimer Law516 Reviews - Lender · Tampa, FL · Member since 2014 · 543 posts · 168 votes8y
@Tom Gimer, watching Scarface right now on IFC channel, so “Sa a’low tu’ma lil’fren”
Title companies are a dime a dozen, they're on every corner, same as Mattress Stores.
Exactly what is it that you do as a title agent that warrants consumers paying you $2,000 more ...for Title Insurance of all things?
- 8yTom GimerBusiness MemberDMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Pull your head out of the mountain of cocaine on your desk and explain the $2000 figure you are throwing around.
Title insurance premiums are set by the insurer and filed with each state's insurance department. If anybody wanted to sell Entitle's insurance, one would think they would be doing so.
But ... here's some recent data on the top insurers:
Company Name / Market Share
First American Title Insurance Company 23.7%
Old Republic National Title Insurance Company 14.73%
Attorney’s Title insurance Funds, Inc. 13.24%
Chicago Title insurance Company 10.59%
Fidelity National Title Insurance Company 9.18%
Stewart Title Guaranty Company 8.91%
Commonwealth Land Title Insurance Company 5.31%
Ticor Title Insurance Company of Florida 3.45%
Lawyers Title Insurance Corporation 3.09%
Westcor Land Title Company 3.07%
Ticor Title Insurance Company 1.93%
Title Resources Guaranty Company 1.26%
North American Title insurance Company 0.56%
K.E.L. Title Insurance Group, Inc. 0.49%
Commerce Title Insurance Company 0.30%
Hmm.
Gimer Law516 Reviews - Lender · Tampa, FL · Member since 2014 · 543 posts · 168 votes8y
I've never had a title company want to go toe to toe with me before as usually they stay neutral in these discussions as they don't want to bring attention to the horrendous costs consumers hand over in title costs and fees on every purchase and refi!
You may want to consider setting your rocks down gently, turning around and walking back into that Big Glass House from where you're throwing rocks from as Title Insurance is a HUGE target!Question: for the Billions collected in Title Ins. on purchases and refis, what percent is actually paid out in claims?
Again, please give us a Title Quote on a 500k purchase with a 400k purchase loan, same as if I sent you a request for a Draft Prelim CD (closing disclosure) listing all the title costs, charges and fees.
- Flipper/Rehabber · Montgomery, NY · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
@Tom Gimer it's probably best to "bow out" and let the OP ramble on for a handful more posts here before this thread goes stale. He will find another real estate business who charges fees that he can attack those in the business.
BTW I have never paid multiple thousands of dollars for title insurance... is that normal?
- Lender · Tampa, FL · Member since 2014 · 543 posts · 168 votes8y
Yes, I suggest bowing out as next to that absurd 6 points of the Tax Free Home Equity handed over like it's Monopoly money by "asleep at the wheel" consumers in so called "earned" real estate commissions, Title Insurance is something that consumers are waking up and realizing, they no longer have to lay down and except the costs anymore!
- 8yTom GimerBusiness MemberDMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
I've never had a title company want to go toe to toe with me before as usually they stay neutral in these discussions as they don't want to bring attention to the horrendous costs consumers hand over in title costs and fees on every purchase and refi!
You may want to consider setting your rocks down gently, turning around and walking back into that Big Glass House from where you're throwing rocks from as Title Insurance is a HUGE target!
Question: for the Billions collected in Title Ins. on purchases and refis, what percent is actually paid out in claims?
Again, please give us a Title Quote on a 500k purchase with a 400k purchase loan, same as if I sent you a request for a Draft Prelim CD (closing disclosure) listing all the title costs, charges and fees.
Why would I need to go "toe-to-toe" with someone who isn't even a competitor? Someone who doesn't even understand the difference between title companies and title insurers and the products vs. services they each provide.
You got the wrong idea about what this website is all about FL MORTGAGE BROKER. Go ahead, keep posting self-promoting posts in the Florida forum and bad advice in other threads. Most people understand signal vs. noise.
Gimer Law516 Reviews - Lender · Tampa, FL · Member since 2014 · 543 posts · 168 votes8y
@Tom Gimer, that's not what the emails from investors are saying.
What I'm sharing with Investors on BP is info on money saving strategies that they won't hear from the "Resident" posters who want them to continue believing that the world is flat and to not believe their lying eyes.
BTW- where is the Prelim Draft CD (closing disclosure) request listing your companies Title Costs, Charges and Fees on a 500k purchase with a 400k purchase loan?
- Lender · Tampa, FL · Member since 2014 · 543 posts · 168 votes8y
@Tom Gimer, I've gone back years and read posts and it seems that you and a few other "Resident" posters have a long history of controlling the topics with synchronized "Deflection and Obstructionist" tactics & responses by those who have had a good, long ride on O'l Betsy the CASH COW (i.e. 6 POINTS real estate commissions & out of control Title Insurance Costs, Charges and Fees)
I'm on BP to pull back the curtain, unlike anyone else has done, to expose the Cash Cow and to teach "REAL" money saving strategies to BP Investors so they can be liberated from the antiquated ways of the past.
If it ruffles the feathers of a few realtors (and title agents), I suggest they retreat to their "safe spaces," turn on MSNBC and not read or respond to my discussions or posts.
With that said, let's stop focusing on me and instead focus on helping the BP Investors whose best interests all too often seem to take a backseat to the compensation of realtors and title agents.
- Lender · Tampa, FL · Member since 2014 · 543 posts · 168 votes8y
@Tom Gimer wrote above...Why would I need to go "toe-to-toe" with someone who isn't even a competitor?
Well Tom Gimer, I don't know, why are you trying to do this with a Mortgage Broker?
Why is it, a Title Agent of all people, who both Mortgage Brokers and Realtors give a pass to and who usually stays neutral, feel the need to pile on when I'm having discussions with BP Investors about Realtor Rebates savings?
I suggest that if you don't want to make Title Insurance Costs, Charges & Fees a Target in the crosshairs (and a HUGE Target it is) in discussions, then please either offer constructive and positive comments or if not, when it comes to such posts on subject, you will find...
https://youtu.be/_KDR0ShFgGU?list=RD_KDR0ShFgGU&t=12 when it's so obvious someone is running interference in attempts to prevent BP Investors from learning about money saving strategies.
And as far as your Donner Party comments, what if a steam engine (i.e. Realtor Rebate train) had come along back then, loaded everyone up, including the horses and wagons, save them all from starvation and gave them a ride to their destination?
- 8yTom GimerBusiness MemberDMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
@Tom Gimer wrote above...Why would I need to go "toe-to-toe" with someone who isn't even a competitor?
Well Tom Gimer, I don't know, why are you trying to do this with a Mortgage Broker?
Why is it, a Title Agent of all people, who both Mortgage Brokers and Realtors give a pass to and who usually stays neutral, feel the need to pile on when I'm having discussions with BP Investors about Realtor Rebates savings?
I suggest that if you don't want to make Title Insurance Costs, Charges & Fees a Target in the crosshairs (and a HUGE Target it is) in discussions, then please either offer constructive and positive comments or if not, when it comes to such posts on subject, you will find...
https://youtu.be/_KDR0ShFgGU?list=RD_KDR0ShFgGU&t=12 when it's so obvious someone is running interference in attempts to prevent BP Investors from learning about money saving strategies.
And as far as your Donner Party comments, what if a steam engine (i.e. Realtor Rebate train) had come along back then, loaded everyone up, including the horses and wagons, save them all from starvation and gave them a ride to their destination?
I have no problem defending reasonable title fees or my hourly rate. Bring it.
You have a problem with title insurance rates? Go fight that battle with the insurers.
Gimer Law516 Reviews - Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes8y
Hey Steve. What fee amount for title work do you propose? I hate paying so much for title insurance but the title work is not very expensive in my market. Last residential closing...$225 title search + $150 for title examination. The attorney's closing fee was $425 for the buyer + $250 for the seller. Is there an alternative to reduce the insurance rates? Your lender is the party that requires it.
- Lender · Tampa, FL · Member since 2014 · 543 posts · 168 votes8y
Ask for a Preliminary Draft CD (closing disclosure) from the title agent you use on a 500k purchase with a 400k purchase loan amount and email to me and I'll show you.
- Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes8y
No draft required...I provided real numbers off a recent actual closing statement above. What fee amount for title work do you propose? Is there an alternative to reduce title insurance rates? PM or email me is not an appropriate solution for the forums or the membership...just tell us here. How can we cut the $375 that I paid for title work?
- Lender · Tampa, FL · Member since 2014 · 543 posts · 168 votes8y
The first that can generally be cut is the Simultaneous Issued Lender Policy costs from $350 to $650, down to under 100.00 and down the list of fees from there.
@Mike Dymski, you may already have a title agent partner that charges you bare minimum, but that isn't the case with what I see on a daily basis when requesting Draft Prelim CDs from seller's title agents all over Florida.
For all the other new investors on BP, they need to know that just like Real Estate Commission, they don't have to lay down an just accept high title closing costs either.
Here, I'll write the request below and just cut, paste and email to a few random Title companies (there are millions of them it seems) and obtain 2 Prelim CDs where they list all their title costs, charges and fees for the purchase:
Good morning,
Please send me a Draft Preliminary CD for a $523,100 home purchase with a purchase mortgage of $425,000
Once you have 2 title quotes, from 2 different title companies, (note: they can generate and send these within a few minutes), email them to me
- Accountant · Miami, FL · Member since 2017 · 144 posts · 54 votes8y
I've never heard of anyone paying more than 2k for title insurance/search?
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