Rodent droppings scattered all over the attic- Dealbreaker?

[Rob C.]

A house I'm considering purchasing has a pest problem, and there are a lot of rodent droppings in the garage and attic. If I go through with purchasing it, I'm planning to hire a pest control company to get rid of the pests. But what about the droppings they've already left behind? I imagine it would be rather costly to clean the droppings scattered about the insulation throughout the attic. Is this a health hazard? Do they make a house legally uninhabitable? And do average homeowners (i.e. not investors) consider this a dealbreaker when looking to buy a house?

Thanks, Rob

[Michelle Marty]

I remember reading mice droppings and urine have some virus in them that can make people really sick. I think its hentavirus... Im sure its searchable. I wouldn't personally buy a house that had them.

[J Scott]

Rob -

Personally, I think it's not a big deal. Unless you're willing to pay market value, you're rarely going to find properties that are in perfect condition (even rare at market value). So, you need to decide what is important and what is not.

Rodent problems aren't fun, but like everything else rehab related, it's just a money issue. Find a good pest control company (happy to recommend one in this area), have them take care of the infestation, and then either have them or another contractor clean up the mess.

Of course, if it's a HUGE problem, it may be expensive, but a few rats/mice shouldn't be a big deal.

That's just my take...

[Kyle J.]

ANY house - from the low end to the high end - can get mice in the attic. Just get rid of them and it won't be a problem. I've had mice in the attic of several of my houses, and seen evidence of them in quite a few houses I've looked at. Doesn't bother me. The droppings aren't going to make you sick unless you're up there handling the droppings for some reason.

You could hire a pest control company to get rid of them if you don't want to mess with them. However, they're pretty easy to get rid of if you do it right. Here's what has worked for me 100% of the time:

1) Visibly inspect the ENTIRE perimeter of the roof (near the eaves) around the house and try to find where they are getting into the attic at. Usually there will be a small hole/gap somewhere, and more often then not it seems to be where two roof lines intersect. It doesn't take a very big hole for mice to make their way inside the attic.

2) Fill any holes/gaps you find with some sort of wire mesh. I've also found that those round metal downspout leaf guards work well for this too.

3) Trim any trees/branches that are touching the house/roof. Mice use these to easily climb up to, and access, the roof.

4) Put poison bait traps (like the trays of little pellets) in the attic where you see heavy evidence of mice droppings.

Do all this, and pretty soon your rodent problem will be gone.

[Tod R.]

I agree with J and Kyle. It's not a deal killer if you treat, and repair, and prevent. If you don't get it properly cleaned and repair the damage, then yes, it will turn off prospective homeowners.

Get a professional though to reomove them. I wouldn't try this on my own.

[Rob C.]

Thanks for all the responses Michelle Marty, J Scott, Kyle J., and Tod R.. I get the impression from your answers that the droppings do need to be cleaned up. Given that they're scattered about on the insulation of the attic, is there any way to clean them up in a cost effective manner?

One pest control company suggested I could cover them up with more insulation to trap any airborne viruses, or remove the insulation to do a full clean and add back the insulation. Neither option sounds particularly cheap, and will probably push me over budget

Thanks again, Rob

[Joel Owens]

Rob,

This is really simple. Any investment you look at buying it's all about price.

Depending on your exit you set a price you will pay based on condition and problems with the property. After analysis there are some properties you will not take for free.

I would have a pest control company come out and assess the extent of the infestation and if it is active or not. I would get a written estimate for worst case scenario and add 10% on top of that.

You are saying you can't buy if the cost to fix is over a certain amount. You can purchase you just need to now get a lower price than anticipated. If you can't get that you walk and move onto the next property.

A marginal deal can be worth the risk is you get no money down and great debt service and a non-recourse loan. If you have to put money down, recourse, etc. then you need to stick to getting your price. There will always be another property.

[Mike M.]

Kyle J. has sound advice. We've used steel wool with good success because they can't/won't chew through it. When you find your roofline entry points, seal them up when your rodents are most likely to be out looking for food. Be prepared with plenty of traps to make sure you catch all the ones trapped in the attic before they die. It took our rat three days before he finally got hungry enough for the trap to put him out of his misery.

Unless it's an infestation worthy of a TV show, I wouldn't consider it a dealbreaker. I suspect many of the houses out there that are prime for making money have (or had) some rodents taking up residence at one time or another.

[Rob C.]

Thanks Joel Owens. Yes, I had a pest control company come out. It won't be very much to get rid of the pests. It's the present droppings that appear to be another story. The pest control company said they get rid of the pests, but don't clean up the droppings. They made a couple suggestions on how to address the droppings (as I listed above). If I can cover them up with insulation, and be done with it, then that might be a cheap enough fix. Can anyone speak to the effectiveness of this?

In regard to your comment about sticking to my price, I unfortunately am not sure what price I need to stick to because market value is so ambiguous (for more info see my other post: http://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/88/topics/78539). I've capped my rehab budget around $15k because the cash flow ROI will still work for me, but at the same time I don't want to be all-in at a price that's at market value (or even worse, above) if I'm putting in all the work. Thanks again!

[Rob C.]

Thanks Mike M. Appreciate the input

[Joel Owens]

"If I can cover them up with insulation, and be done with it, then that might be a cheap enough fix. Can anyone speak to the effectiveness of this"

I would fix it the right way and adjust the price for it. I wouldn't just cover something up like that. Some do not care but if you have to ask you generally know the answer.

When you rehab a property make it "inspection proof" for resale. Do not cut corners to try and make purchase numbers work as it might be a problem later on when selling.

Just my opinion and of course others will say do the cheapest possible, make the money, and get out to the next one.

[Scott W.]

i'm sure Rob K would have an awesome answer for this. He's very good.

[Rob C.]

Joel Owens I agree with you and want to rehab it to be "inspection proof." I'm just trying to get a sense of whether covering them up with insulation is legitimately satisfactory (i.e. inspection proof). Unfortunately as you suspected I'm hearing a fair amount of mixed opinions. But the ones who are saying just to cover it up don't appear to portray it as cutting corners, but rather as a satisfactory resolution to the problem. I'm still not sure what to believe myself. Thanks again for your input!

[Joel Owens]

At the end of the day it's about how you want to conduct your business and how well you will sleep at night.

I sleep very well knowing I stand behind everything I do.

My brother owns a car dealership he has had for 20 years. People flock to him because of his reputation. He buys cars at the private auction for dealers "no starts". He takes everything apart and warranties the vehicle and they buy it from him with cash.

He could just rig cars and sell them that way but long term that isn't the way to be. That's just my personal philosophy to do it right or not at all.

Other will disagree which is why it's all about how you want to handle your business and stand behind it.

[Vikki Waln]

If you're going to the expense of new insulation to cover the problem, wouldn't it be just as easy to remove the old insulation before putting the new down? You're going to buy the same linear footage of insulation to cover it up anyway, right? Just get a good respirator mask and bag the old insulation and seal it up before removing it from the house. Ventilate, then put the new insulation down. It's really not as big a deal as say, a meth house. It's not a hazmat level project. People clean their attics, basements and garages everyday. Just be reasonably cautious about keeping your mouth and nose covered until done and the place is ventilated.

[Rob K.]

Scott W. Thanks, but I don't have a ton of experience with rodents.

I would think you could vacuum up the droppings, unless there's a ton of them. Then, I would agree with the others that said remove the insulation, vacuum everything, and put down new insulation.

[Christian Morency]

My friend, who owns over 40 rentals had an issue with a tenant that got rabbies from being bit by a bat. This triggered the entire California State dept of Health and Safety and what-not.
To make a long story short, he was not allowed to do his own cleanup of the bat droppings in the attic of his own rental, so he called me. I'm just a friend who owns rentals too. I vaccumed them up and that was that. The inspection passed.
This is no big dealbreaker. Just hire a flunky for minimum wage and tell him that if you personally find one rat dropping after he is through, you will not pay him.
I spent less than 3 hours in the attic.
I used the droppings as fertilizer for my house plants.
This is not a deal breaker IMHO.

[Rob C.]

Thanks for all the replies everyone. I concluded this wasn't a dealbreaker for the property I have under contract, based largely on your insights and opinions. I talked to a couple pest control companies today, and got some further clarification.

An L3 decontamination is where they remove all insulation, spray disinfectant and remove virtually all the droppings (but they can't guarantee they will get them all), and then add the insulation back in.

An L2 decontamination is when they just spray the disinfectant (which is allegedly enough to eliminate any potential health hazard). They also attempt to remove as much as possible, but there will still be more droppings left in this scenario than L3. They then add extra insulation to cover it up.

So as far as the health hazard is concerned, an L2 is just as effective as L3. One guy I spoke to indicated that some people end up doing L3 simply because of the psychological factor - they don't like the idea of rat crap in their house anywhere.

As far as future inspections go, it should be virtually impossible to see any trace of a previous rat problem after either L2 or L3 treatment.

As far as ballpark pricing I was told L2 ranges from $1.25-1.65 per sq ft, and L3 is about $2.65 per sq ft. At least in Atlanta anyway.

Personally, I think I'm going to opt for a professional L2 decontamination. I'm going to contact one or two more pest control companies in the next couple days. I'll report back if I reach any different conclusions.

thanks again, Rob

[Mark H.]

The "decontamination" you're being pitched is a scam.

Rule #1 - you can't "sanitize" a dirty surface.. pouring bleach or disinfectant/sanitizer (of any kind) on poo doesn't make it sanitary. Ask for the name of the disinfectant/sanitizer they're planning to use, then google it & find the label & msds.

I'd bet a chicken dinner that the use instructions start out with "remove gross contamination".. step two will be something along the lines of "thoroughly wet the area to be treated & keep wet for xx period of time".. If they "thoroughly wet" your insulation, you'll need new insulation.. And if they're not using it according to the label instructions, they aren't doing anything but collecting a pile of cash to make you feel better.

Rule #2 - anyone who is exposing themselves to an insulated attic more than casually should be wearing a mask or a respirator anyway. I'd be a lot more worried about exposure to chopped fiberglass or vermiculite than mouse poo.

[Scott W.]

Maybe I'm off on something but what's the big difference between picking up my dog's crap when he has an accident in the house & a rat's in the attic?

[Joel Owens]

Not an expert but generally your dog has been vaccinated against certain diseases.

Bats create Guano and rats or mice carry plenty of diseases so in my mind that would be the difference.

These types of animals carry all kinds of illnesses that is dangerous to the public.

[Scott W.]

Who's gonna go hang out in the attic? i just don't see how it needs to be so involved; again, I must be wrong as it seems pretty serious.

[Joel Owens]

I see people throw caution to the wind all the time and take their chances.

I am not one of those people for the sake of a buck.

To each person it's their life and their property and they can do with it what they want.

[Chris K.]

Originally posted by Scott W.:

Maybe I'm off on something but what's the big difference between picking up my dog's crap when he has an accident in the house & a rat's in the attic?

I really need to know this too. I just got finished cleaning out my rental all last week and swept/vacuumed some mouse poop from the basement. Am I going to die??

[Mark H.]

Originally posted by Chris K.:

Originally posted by Scott W.:

Maybe I'm off on something but what's the big difference between picking up my dog's crap when he has an accident in the house & a rat's in the attic?

I really need to know this too. I just got finished cleaning out my rental all last week and swept/vacuumed some mouse poop from the basement. Am I going to die??

Yes.

You are going to die, but mouse poop isn't likely to be the cause.

I think the big fear with mouse poo is Hantavirus. It's incredibly rare, but it can be deadly.

That said, nobody's going "swimming" through your attic insulation. Unless the house is new, it could probably use at least a few more inches of insulation anyway. A 6-10" "topper" of blown in cellulose would likely cost less than $1k professionally installed.

A future home inspector might check the depth, but they aren't going to dig around in insulation looking for mouse poo. Disturbing the insulation lowers the R value.

The standard for an FHA appraisal is a "head and shoulders" peek into the attic scuttle, and shoot a couple pictures for the file. Some appraisers have cameras mounted on a stick, so they don't have to even put their head in the attic.

Disclose that there *was* a mouse infestation, get more insulation blown in, and provide the new buyer your receipt showing a licensed pro got the mice out. Done.

[Will Barnard]

Wow, some good advice and some bad in here. As for the pest control company stating that the disinfectant spray would neutralize any health issues, that is crap in a handbag.

As for dog vs. rodent droppings, there is a HUGE difference. Some already stated the health issues and the main virus issue, although rare. A more common issue is that rodent droppings can cause spinal meningitis in humans and can be deadly. If you don't die, you will certainly be in a world or hurt for some time and quarantined in a hospital. Ask me how I know. Better yet, don't ask.

As for the best remediation that is cost effective, go up with protective clothing, an EPA approved mask, and a vacuum with nozzle. Obviously it takes the proper angle of the nozzle to suck up the crap without sucking up the insulation. If it is blown in insulation and not in rolls, good luck! If in rolls, simply removing the droppings with a vacuum will do the trick. Snap traps to capture any current infestation is required and the comment regarding steel wool is correct, use of such in the entry points will eliminate the rodents ability to gain entry. Using some expanding foam will also aid in the sealant.

To answer the OG question, is this a deal killer? Absolutely NOT. This is one way to get a better deal and increase your margins, not hinder them!