Turnkey Nightmare with Morris Invest - Indianapolis

[Maria Dantas]

Hi there fellow investors!

We've done our first turnkey purchase with Morris Invest in Indianapolis about 6 month ago. A house in a C neighborhood near downtown, for about 50k. For this price the house was supposed  to be renovated and ready to rend. We had a hard time receiving photos of the process, and communication wasn't that good. Morris Invest gave the management part to Ocean Point, and things just got worse from there on, everyone is always too busy to come to the line, and calls are never returned. We got an email saying the property was still empty and they were having a hard time putting a tenant in place.

So we've decide to come by Indianapolis and find out what  was going on... as most of you can already imagine, things were much worse than we expected. When we drove by the house we noticed right away that it was the only house in the neighborhood that didn't have any work done in a looooooong time. It looked empty from the out side, so we try to get a better look inside, and that's when we noticed there is people living in the house, by what looks like they are probably squatting! I talked to a lady in her twenties, who said that they bought that house, then said they were actually leasing, and already living there for 8 months, then changed her story to "we are living here for 4 months". I was standing by her door and could feel the strong smell of weed coming from the house.

We called Ocean Point, but as usual everyone was too busy to come to the phone. I was outraged and wanted to visit their office in person, only to find out the address they have listed on their website its only for mailing, and they don't actually have an office for the public.

It's safe to say that we didn't do our due diligence enough with this one, and looking back we would've done things much different.

It's my first time going through something like this, and I'm not sure how to best handle this situation, what would be the best action in this case? If anyone has gone to something similar any tips or advises would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks in advance, 

Maria Dantas

[Alan Grobmeier]

I looked at a lot of turnkey ‘models’.  I have also listened to a lot of podcasts, MI and others.  The properties are generally in bad school districts.  That doesn’t bode well to get and keep long term tenants.

It’s a problem of greed on the part of the investor.  1-2% monthly income from afar (and by yourself) is almost impossible.  It’s like buying gold at $500 an ounce in today’s market.   Not going to happen.

And I think ‘baby boomers’ are the worst culprit here.  Many might have a 401k of 100k-500k.  They know that  won’t work for retirement.  They need an investment that throws off cash flow.  Clayton Morris and MI have ‘solved’ their problems.  Buy 10 houses at 50k each and you will have all the income you will ever need.  Not quite, but good try.

Real estate is location, location, location.  Buy houses/locations that will be first to rise in value and last to fall.  Get places w good school districts.  Most of my places are in good school districts.  My avg stay is 4 years, one tenant has been w me 9 years.

I am the PM for all my properties, despite a full-time job.  I have home warranties to fix any/all problems.  My tenants call the home warranty company first.

Final advice:  go for ‘singles’.  

[Todd Burton]

@Shadonna N.: In addition to those suggestions, reach out to a local TV station.  

For anyone interested in speaking to the local TV media, I've been contacted by a local TV investigative reporter and he has been working on an in-depth exposé on Oceanpointe and Morris for a couple months now. If you want to contact me I will provide his name and contact information. I'm sure they would be pleased to have your input and additional information. 

[Seth Hobbs]

@Maria Dantas Wow! It stinks that this happens to people far too much.  I invest just west of Indy on the border of Illinois and I've learned that you have to vet property management companies like crazy.  I'm talking months worth of investigating and communicating with them.  I've found that I won't work with someone that doesn't pick up their phones and or calls back very shortly after.  You both have to have the mindset that you are going in to business together, and if you don't get that vibe from them then you need to move on.  I would also make sure that part of their management portfolio consists of their own properties.  Make sure you get numbers from them on vacancy rates in their management portfolio and also vet how they advertise their properties.  Research how long their properties stay online for rent.  You are handing over your investment to these people so they need to be a trusted arm of your business.

On the turnkey side..... I hate turnkey.  For what happened to you alone.  Unless you have the time to fly out and look at the properties in person of FaceTime with the property managers at the property I wouldn't buy them until you can trust those companies.  Investing from a distance is not for the faint of heart and actually takes more time up front I've discovered.  Until you can build that machine and team around you make sure  you vet everything!  Good luck! 

Let me know if you need any help with anything- I've got some connections in Indy

[Joseph M.]

Sorry to hear about your experience with Morris Invest..
it’s companies like this that don’t help the reputation of the industry unfortunately .

I have heard of them for a while as they do a lot of marketing , but just started hearing negative things more recently .

I think you have gotten a lot of good advice . Hopefully you can get the property stabilized with a legit tenant if you chose to do so . On the plus side the general real estate market is strong now and hopefully values have gone up in the area .

Hopefully this experience doesn’t turn you off to real estate investing entirely and just makes you a better investor in the long run .

Please update us and let us know what you end doing .

[Brian Stratton]

Somebody posted a topic on bigger pockets last week "Why they buy properties, sight unseen."   I responded that I wouldn't do that, especially having never seen the neighborhood, the property, and never having met the company I would be partnering with.  I got a little flack, waste of money, waste of time etc.   

This thread is EXACTLY why I will be visiting my first purchase!

Sorry to hear about your situation Maria.  I hope it works out. Maybe you should go to the local media and have them shamed in public.  What happened to you is outrageous.

[Teresa Humphreys]

Just took a look at the Indy SOS and the new PM in place of Oceanpointe is called Blue Sky Property Management, LLC and the registered agents are indeed Natali and Clayton Morris. It looks like it was created this year after OP had their license revoked.

[Jeremy Z.]

Originally posted by @Ryan Evans:

It's shocking that people continue to use this company. Most people look up reviews when they go out to eat or buy some new toy on Amazon, yet don't simply search for reviews when using a new company to BUY A RENTAL PROPERTY! 

I mean, in the top 5 google results of "morris invest," there are a ton of case studies on exactly why you should not use them. 

It's sad to see so many people getting duped by these guys, but what do people expect when doing zero research on a purchase of tens of thousands of dollars? 

 When I google "morris invest" the top five results are not case studies of negative experiences.

On top of that, these types of gurus continually push the "just take action" and "don't listen to the negativity" message. Yes, these people could have saved themselves some major problems with more due diligence, but blaming the victims takes focus away from the real problem - businesses conducting fraud.

[Jeremy Z.]

Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:

It is easy to blame Morris, but if you buy a property sight unseen for $50K in today's market, it is pretty naive to believe everything will be fine. I can tell you without even vising that the place is a dump, probably in a D area. A plane ticket from CA to just about anywhere is maybe $400. The problem is inexperienced investors chasing rainbows. If it wasn't Morris that duped you, someone else would. You have to be smart and thorough when vetting any investment. If you had done a 5 minute Google search on Morris, this could have been avoided.

I know people want to shut Morris down, which it seems is inevitable, but I guarantee someone else will just take his place. Every investment requires due diligence. Not only before the sale, but afterwards. 

 I've only been on BP for a few months now, but I have come to recognize your name as someone who posts straight-forward, sound opinions. Which makes it even more baffling to me to see you putting all blame on the victims here. Clayton Morris and Ocean Pointe are committing fraud. It is irrelevant if someone will try to take there place. In the United States, if you commit fraud by misrepresenting what you are selling there are supposed to be consequences. These are contractual agreements to perform work that aren't being fulfilled. These are fake lease agreements. That's what we should be focusing on here, and do are part to help squash their ability to operate illegally. Not blaming the buyers, regardless of how foolish you think their decisions were.

[Joe Splitrock]

Originally posted by @Jeremy Z.:

Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:

It is easy to blame Morris, but if you buy a property sight unseen for $50K in today's market, it is pretty naive to believe everything will be fine. I can tell you without even vising that the place is a dump, probably in a D area. A plane ticket from CA to just about anywhere is maybe $400. The problem is inexperienced investors chasing rainbows. If it wasn't Morris that duped you, someone else would. You have to be smart and thorough when vetting any investment. If you had done a 5 minute Google search on Morris, this could have been avoided.

I know people want to shut Morris down, which it seems is inevitable, but I guarantee someone else will just take his place. Every investment requires due diligence. Not only before the sale, but afterwards. 

 I've only been on BP for a few months now, but I have come to recognize your name as someone who posts straight-forward, sound opinions. Which makes it even more baffling to me to see you putting all blame on the victims here. Clayton Morris and Ocean Pointe are committing fraud. It is irrelevant if someone will try to take there place. In the United States, if you commit fraud by misrepresenting what you are selling there are supposed to be consequences. These are contractual agreements to perform work that aren't being fulfilled. These are fake lease agreements. That's what we should be focusing on here, and do are part to help squash their ability to operate illegally. Not blaming the buyers, regardless of how foolish you think their decisions were.

I am not putting all the blame on victims, but in most cases the victims do NO due diligence. Not even a simple Google search, let alone fly out and actually look at the investment. If a thief breaks into your car and steals from you, do you have responsibility because you left your door unlocked? What if you left the door unlocked and a stack of hundred dollar bills sitting out in the open? Happens all the time in my city. Guns get stolen from cars and the media asks the police, what can people do to stop this. The police say, "don't leave guns in your car and don't leave cars unlocked."

Maybe you don't like the tone of my post, but hopefully it causes one person to think twice before blindly trusting anyone. 

[James Wise]

Originally posted by @Teresa Humphreys:

Just took a look at the Indy SOS and the new PM in place of Oceanpointe is called Blue Sky Property Management, LLC and the registered agents are indeed Natali and Clayton Morris. It looks like it was created this year after OP had their license revoked.

 Who is the actual broker though?

[Account Closed]

Wow! I am so sorry for what you are going through. I could not close mouth while reading this. I wish many people will be posting their experiences like this.

[Regen Place]

Sorry this happened to you.  Obviously Morris needs to be shut down and made well-known to the public how they operate.  I realize it can be labor intensive but I have to agree with other posts about physically visiting the property before a purchase is made.  I recently invested in the midwest and made two separate trips (9 hour drive one way) to research the area and meet my realtor/property management team etc. before buying a duplex.  It is possible to buy sight unseen but you need to have a fully proven team in place (realtor, contractor, property manager, lender, etc).  If you have the time and money I would legally remove the squatters and try to save the investment.  If you can find a reputable realtor or contact who might be willing to provide live video of the renovations as they progress you would at least have that as a piece of mind.  Tough deal no doubt.  Moving forward try to physically set foot in the investment before committing or have a reputable team do it for you if you cannot be there.  Good luck moving forward.

[Jay Hinrichs]

Originally posted by @James Wise:

Originally posted by @Teresa Humphreys:

Just took a look at the Indy SOS and the new PM in place of Oceanpointe is called Blue Sky Property Management, LLC and the registered agents are indeed Natali and Clayton Morris. It looks like it was created this year after OP had their license revoked.

 Who is the actual broker though?

Good question  

[Jeremy Z.]

Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:

Originally posted by @Jeremy Z.:

Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:

It is easy to blame Morris, but if you buy a property sight unseen for $50K in today's market, it is pretty naive to believe everything will be fine. I can tell you without even vising that the place is a dump, probably in a D area. A plane ticket from CA to just about anywhere is maybe $400. The problem is inexperienced investors chasing rainbows. If it wasn't Morris that duped you, someone else would. You have to be smart and thorough when vetting any investment. If you had done a 5 minute Google search on Morris, this could have been avoided.

I know people want to shut Morris down, which it seems is inevitable, but I guarantee someone else will just take his place. Every investment requires due diligence. Not only before the sale, but afterwards. 

 I've only been on BP for a few months now, but I have come to recognize your name as someone who posts straight-forward, sound opinions. Which makes it even more baffling to me to see you putting all blame on the victims here. Clayton Morris and Ocean Pointe are committing fraud. It is irrelevant if someone will try to take there place. In the United States, if you commit fraud by misrepresenting what you are selling there are supposed to be consequences. These are contractual agreements to perform work that aren't being fulfilled. These are fake lease agreements. That's what we should be focusing on here, and do are part to help squash their ability to operate illegally. Not blaming the buyers, regardless of how foolish you think their decisions were.

I am not putting all the blame on victims, but in most cases the victims do NO due diligence. Not even a simple Google search, let alone fly out and actually look at the investment. If a thief breaks into your car and steals from you, do you have responsibility because you left your door unlocked? What if you left the door unlocked and a stack of hundred dollar bills sitting out in the open? Happens all the time in my city. Guns get stolen from cars and the media asks the police, what can people do to stop this. The police say, "don't leave guns in your car and don't leave cars unlocked."

Maybe you don't like the tone of my post, but hopefully it causes one person to think twice before blindly trusting anyone. 

 Your post has more of chance of making victims feel embarrassed and less willing to share their experiences. You specifically said if Morris didn't dupe them, someone else would. You have no idea about that. Clayton Morris was a known television personality from a news program that at least some people feel is reputable. He is a slick salesman who pushes the idea that you need to stop listening to the doubters and just go for it!

Make no mistake, I agree that visiting a real estate investment in person, especially a first investment, should be a must. But some of the posters on this forum prove that even smart people can be taken, particularly if they are inexperienced. Our indignation should be directed at the perpetrators of these scams, not the people who fall for them.

[Ben Leybovich]

Originally posted by @Jeremy Z.:

Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:

Originally posted by @Jeremy Z.:

Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:

It is easy to blame Morris, but if you buy a property sight unseen for $50K in today's market, it is pretty naive to believe everything will be fine. I can tell you without even vising that the place is a dump, probably in a D area. A plane ticket from CA to just about anywhere is maybe $400. The problem is inexperienced investors chasing rainbows. If it wasn't Morris that duped you, someone else would. You have to be smart and thorough when vetting any investment. If you had done a 5 minute Google search on Morris, this could have been avoided.

I know people want to shut Morris down, which it seems is inevitable, but I guarantee someone else will just take his place. Every investment requires due diligence. Not only before the sale, but afterwards. 

 I've only been on BP for a few months now, but I have come to recognize your name as someone who posts straight-forward, sound opinions. Which makes it even more baffling to me to see you putting all blame on the victims here. Clayton Morris and Ocean Pointe are committing fraud. It is irrelevant if someone will try to take there place. In the United States, if you commit fraud by misrepresenting what you are selling there are supposed to be consequences. These are contractual agreements to perform work that aren't being fulfilled. These are fake lease agreements. That's what we should be focusing on here, and do are part to help squash their ability to operate illegally. Not blaming the buyers, regardless of how foolish you think their decisions were.

I am not putting all the blame on victims, but in most cases the victims do NO due diligence. Not even a simple Google search, let alone fly out and actually look at the investment. If a thief breaks into your car and steals from you, do you have responsibility because you left your door unlocked? What if you left the door unlocked and a stack of hundred dollar bills sitting out in the open? Happens all the time in my city. Guns get stolen from cars and the media asks the police, what can people do to stop this. The police say, "don't leave guns in your car and don't leave cars unlocked."

Maybe you don't like the tone of my post, but hopefully it causes one person to think twice before blindly trusting anyone. 

 Your post has more of chance of making victims feel embarrassed and less willing to share their experiences. You specifically said if Morris didn't dupe them, someone else would. You have no idea about that. Clayton Morris was a known television personality from a news program that at least some people feel is reputable. He is a slick salesman who pushes the idea that you need to stop listening to the doubters and just go for it!

Make no mistake, I agree that visiting a real estate investment in person, especially a first investment, should be a must. But some of the posters on this forum prove that even smart people can be taken, particularly if they are inexperienced. Our indignation should be directed at the perpetrators of these scams, not the people who fall for them.

 Why do you suppose it's Joe's job to help anyone feel better? What do feelings have to do with anything. He's simply stating the obvious - do DD before investing. Do you guys actually think that Morris is a stand-alone? I've been writing about this for ages. 

It's a sad state of affairs, but that's exactly why we use the phrase caveat emptor

[Jeremy Z.]

Originally posted by @Ben Leybovich:

Originally posted by @Jeremy Z.:

Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:

Originally posted by @Jeremy Z.:

Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:

It is easy to blame Morris, but if you buy a property sight unseen for $50K in today's market, it is pretty naive to believe everything will be fine. I can tell you without even vising that the place is a dump, probably in a D area. A plane ticket from CA to just about anywhere is maybe $400. The problem is inexperienced investors chasing rainbows. If it wasn't Morris that duped you, someone else would. You have to be smart and thorough when vetting any investment. If you had done a 5 minute Google search on Morris, this could have been avoided.

I know people want to shut Morris down, which it seems is inevitable, but I guarantee someone else will just take his place. Every investment requires due diligence. Not only before the sale, but afterwards. 

 I've only been on BP for a few months now, but I have come to recognize your name as someone who posts straight-forward, sound opinions. Which makes it even more baffling to me to see you putting all blame on the victims here. Clayton Morris and Ocean Pointe are committing fraud. It is irrelevant if someone will try to take there place. In the United States, if you commit fraud by misrepresenting what you are selling there are supposed to be consequences. These are contractual agreements to perform work that aren't being fulfilled. These are fake lease agreements. That's what we should be focusing on here, and do are part to help squash their ability to operate illegally. Not blaming the buyers, regardless of how foolish you think their decisions were.

I am not putting all the blame on victims, but in most cases the victims do NO due diligence. Not even a simple Google search, let alone fly out and actually look at the investment. If a thief breaks into your car and steals from you, do you have responsibility because you left your door unlocked? What if you left the door unlocked and a stack of hundred dollar bills sitting out in the open? Happens all the time in my city. Guns get stolen from cars and the media asks the police, what can people do to stop this. The police say, "don't leave guns in your car and don't leave cars unlocked."

Maybe you don't like the tone of my post, but hopefully it causes one person to think twice before blindly trusting anyone. 

 Your post has more of chance of making victims feel embarrassed and less willing to share their experiences. You specifically said if Morris didn't dupe them, someone else would. You have no idea about that. Clayton Morris was a known television personality from a news program that at least some people feel is reputable. He is a slick salesman who pushes the idea that you need to stop listening to the doubters and just go for it!

Make no mistake, I agree that visiting a real estate investment in person, especially a first investment, should be a must. But some of the posters on this forum prove that even smart people can be taken, particularly if they are inexperienced. Our indignation should be directed at the perpetrators of these scams, not the people who fall for them.

 Why do you suppose it's Joe's job to help anyone feel better? What do feelings have to do with anything. He's simply stating the obvious - do DD before investing. Do you guys actually think that Morris is a stand-alone? I've been writing about this for ages. 

It's a sad state of affairs, but that's exactly why we use the phrase caveat emptor

 I never stated it was his job to make any of them feel better. He took it a step further and said if they weren't duped by Morris they would have been duped by someone else. He absolutely doesn't know that.

I also never said Morris is a stand-alone, so please don't put words in my mouth. Of course there are other companies out there committing fraud.

We use the phrase caveat emptor. We also have laws that stipulate how businesses may conduct themselves. I'll never understand why some people just shrug their shoulders when businesses break those laws.

[Ben Leybovich]

Originally posted by @Jeremy Z.:

Originally posted by @Ben Leybovich:

Originally posted by @Jeremy Z.:

Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:

Originally posted by @Jeremy Z.:

Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:

It is easy to blame Morris, but if you buy a property sight unseen for $50K in today's market, it is pretty naive to believe everything will be fine. I can tell you without even vising that the place is a dump, probably in a D area. A plane ticket from CA to just about anywhere is maybe $400. The problem is inexperienced investors chasing rainbows. If it wasn't Morris that duped you, someone else would. You have to be smart and thorough when vetting any investment. If you had done a 5 minute Google search on Morris, this could have been avoided.

I know people want to shut Morris down, which it seems is inevitable, but I guarantee someone else will just take his place. Every investment requires due diligence. Not only before the sale, but afterwards. 

 I've only been on BP for a few months now, but I have come to recognize your name as someone who posts straight-forward, sound opinions. Which makes it even more baffling to me to see you putting all blame on the victims here. Clayton Morris and Ocean Pointe are committing fraud. It is irrelevant if someone will try to take there place. In the United States, if you commit fraud by misrepresenting what you are selling there are supposed to be consequences. These are contractual agreements to perform work that aren't being fulfilled. These are fake lease agreements. That's what we should be focusing on here, and do are part to help squash their ability to operate illegally. Not blaming the buyers, regardless of how foolish you think their decisions were.

I am not putting all the blame on victims, but in most cases the victims do NO due diligence. Not even a simple Google search, let alone fly out and actually look at the investment. If a thief breaks into your car and steals from you, do you have responsibility because you left your door unlocked? What if you left the door unlocked and a stack of hundred dollar bills sitting out in the open? Happens all the time in my city. Guns get stolen from cars and the media asks the police, what can people do to stop this. The police say, "don't leave guns in your car and don't leave cars unlocked."

Maybe you don't like the tone of my post, but hopefully it causes one person to think twice before blindly trusting anyone. 

 Your post has more of chance of making victims feel embarrassed and less willing to share their experiences. You specifically said if Morris didn't dupe them, someone else would. You have no idea about that. Clayton Morris was a known television personality from a news program that at least some people feel is reputable. He is a slick salesman who pushes the idea that you need to stop listening to the doubters and just go for it!

Make no mistake, I agree that visiting a real estate investment in person, especially a first investment, should be a must. But some of the posters on this forum prove that even smart people can be taken, particularly if they are inexperienced. Our indignation should be directed at the perpetrators of these scams, not the people who fall for them.

 Why do you suppose it's Joe's job to help anyone feel better? What do feelings have to do with anything. He's simply stating the obvious - do DD before investing. Do you guys actually think that Morris is a stand-alone? I've been writing about this for ages. 

It's a sad state of affairs, but that's exactly why we use the phrase caveat emptor

 I never stated it was his job to make any of them feel better. He took it a step further and said if they weren't duped by Morris they would have been duped by someone else. He absolutely doesn't know that.

I also never said Morris is a stand-alone, so please don't put words in my mouth. Of course there are other companies out there committing fraud.

We use the phrase caveat emptor. We also have laws that stipulate how businesses may conduct themselves. I'll never understand why some people just shrug their shoulders when businesses break those laws.

 OK, I'll bite. Question - do you want to trust yourself and your DD, or do you want to trust the laws? 

Look, there's just no way around this. Real estate is a dirty game full of scum. The reason for this situation is lack of understanding of the game and lack of DD. Of course it's not the OP's fault that Morris is a crook. But it is the OP's fault to think that they can play this game without sufficient education. It's a hard lesson, but that's all it is - a lesson. I get calls with regularity from CA investors who are learning this lesson. 

The sooner we get away from the notion that REI is sexy, pleasant, or easy, the sooner we stop hearing stories like this. Likely the only bad side-effect of BiggerPockets is that much of the content contributes to this aura of REI being something flowery. It is not :)

[David Wurzel]

@Ben Leybovich

Tough love, but absolutely on the money.  I haven't read a truer statement.

[Jeremy Z.]

Originally posted by @Ben Leybovich:

Originally posted by @Jeremy Z.:

Originally posted by @Ben Leybovich:

Originally posted by @Jeremy Z.:

Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:

Originally posted by @Jeremy Z.:

Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:

It is easy to blame Morris, but if you buy a property sight unseen for $50K in today's market, it is pretty naive to believe everything will be fine. I can tell you without even vising that the place is a dump, probably in a D area. A plane ticket from CA to just about anywhere is maybe $400. The problem is inexperienced investors chasing rainbows. If it wasn't Morris that duped you, someone else would. You have to be smart and thorough when vetting any investment. If you had done a 5 minute Google search on Morris, this could have been avoided.

I know people want to shut Morris down, which it seems is inevitable, but I guarantee someone else will just take his place. Every investment requires due diligence. Not only before the sale, but afterwards. 

 I've only been on BP for a few months now, but I have come to recognize your name as someone who posts straight-forward, sound opinions. Which makes it even more baffling to me to see you putting all blame on the victims here. Clayton Morris and Ocean Pointe are committing fraud. It is irrelevant if someone will try to take there place. In the United States, if you commit fraud by misrepresenting what you are selling there are supposed to be consequences. These are contractual agreements to perform work that aren't being fulfilled. These are fake lease agreements. That's what we should be focusing on here, and do are part to help squash their ability to operate illegally. Not blaming the buyers, regardless of how foolish you think their decisions were.

I am not putting all the blame on victims, but in most cases the victims do NO due diligence. Not even a simple Google search, let alone fly out and actually look at the investment. If a thief breaks into your car and steals from you, do you have responsibility because you left your door unlocked? What if you left the door unlocked and a stack of hundred dollar bills sitting out in the open? Happens all the time in my city. Guns get stolen from cars and the media asks the police, what can people do to stop this. The police say, "don't leave guns in your car and don't leave cars unlocked."

Maybe you don't like the tone of my post, but hopefully it causes one person to think twice before blindly trusting anyone. 

 Your post has more of chance of making victims feel embarrassed and less willing to share their experiences. You specifically said if Morris didn't dupe them, someone else would. You have no idea about that. Clayton Morris was a known television personality from a news program that at least some people feel is reputable. He is a slick salesman who pushes the idea that you need to stop listening to the doubters and just go for it!

Make no mistake, I agree that visiting a real estate investment in person, especially a first investment, should be a must. But some of the posters on this forum prove that even smart people can be taken, particularly if they are inexperienced. Our indignation should be directed at the perpetrators of these scams, not the people who fall for them.

 Why do you suppose it's Joe's job to help anyone feel better? What do feelings have to do with anything. He's simply stating the obvious - do DD before investing. Do you guys actually think that Morris is a stand-alone? I've been writing about this for ages. 

It's a sad state of affairs, but that's exactly why we use the phrase caveat emptor

 I never stated it was his job to make any of them feel better. He took it a step further and said if they weren't duped by Morris they would have been duped by someone else. He absolutely doesn't know that.

I also never said Morris is a stand-alone, so please don't put words in my mouth. Of course there are other companies out there committing fraud.

We use the phrase caveat emptor. We also have laws that stipulate how businesses may conduct themselves. I'll never understand why some people just shrug their shoulders when businesses break those laws.

 OK, I'll bite. Question - do you want to trust yourself and your DD, or do you want to trust the laws? 

Look, there's just no way around this. Real estate is a dirty game full of scum. The reason for this situation is lack of understanding of the game and lack of DD. Of course it's not the OP's fault that Morris is a crook. But it is the OP's fault to think that they can play this game without sufficient education. It's a hard lesson, but that's all it is - a lesson. I get calls with regularity from CA investors who are learning this lesson. 

The sooner we get away from the notion that REI is sexy, pleasant, or easy, the sooner we stop hearing stories like this. Likely the only bad side-effect of BiggerPockets is that much of the content contributes to this aura of REI being something flowery. It is not :)

 I trust myself and my due diligence, but I also want a market place that is healthy and functional.

So when people want to share their experiences and expose corrupt businesses, I'm not gonna tell them they "should have known better". That's a good way to silence them, which only prevents others from learning that real estate isn't all sunshine and lollipops. :)

I'm largely in agreement with you and Joe. People should visit properties in person and be thorough in their due diligence. I have advised others on this forum to do just that. Joe's original post just seemed to point fingers at the buyers and all but ignored the real problem, in my opinion. We don't have to accept the Morris Invests and Oceanpointes of this world. We can be vocal and make it more difficult for them to operate their scams.

[Terri Ring]

Wow Maria. That is terrible that this happened to you. Have you thought about contacting a cash buyer to take the property and flip it? Not sure if that is an option for you but you could review cash buyers for that area and see what they would offer you for the property. Good luck to you

[Josh Patel]

sorry to hear about your bad experience but i thank you for sharing . I was serious thinking to obtain a property from them . i guess i will not anymore.

[Ken Virzi]

So just for reference governments and banks and many other smart people got scammed by the horrible loans put together and sold which crashed in 2008. Bernie Madoff fooled the best of the best with his false papers, easy going personality, and past credentials. Sounds like Morris is taking a page right out of Bernie’s playbook.

BTW there are ways to do diligence without flying out there. Google street view is a great resource. Look at the cars parked and if there are bars on the windows. Scroll up and down the block. Then trulia has a crime map which isn’t perfect but gives you a general
idea. Redfin can show the actual comps and if everything is selling for $17k then you know $50k is too high. Also BP is a great place to get info on different neighbors and such. General google searches of cities, neighborhoods, etc might help. All in all there are lots of things from afar we can do.

Also I want to reiterate many others with tons of experience have been taken for much more.

[Ben Leybovich]

Guys, you're missing the damn point.

You cannot afford to do proper DD on a TK $50,000 house. It's not enough profit to warrant you time. Your time is better spent elsewhere.

If you are in a financial situation whereby you have $50,000 to spend on an investment, this tells me that you are successful! Whatever is your highest and best use that got you here - keep doing that. It's working!

Real estate investing is NOT buying a TK $50,000 house. That's not REI. REI is something you have to study just like you studied computer science and medicine. There are no shortcuts, at least not ones that are sustainable :)

[Alan Grobmeier]

@Ben Leybovich, I respectfully disagree.  Unless you can afford to lose the money, you have to do DD.  You would do DD on a 200k house.  

I do agree w you that a 50k TK is not real estate investing.  However, I would bet that many of these ‘investors’ are older and NEED the projected cash flow that MI and others are promising.

[Ben Leybovich]

Originally posted by @Alan Grobmeier:

@Ben Leybovich, I respectfully disagree.  Unless you can afford to lose the money, you have to do DD.  You would do DD on a 200k house.  

I do agree w you that a 50k TK is not real estate investing.  However, I would bet that many of these ‘investors’ are older and NEED the projected cash flow that MI and others are promising.

 Actually, most of these investors are Socal youngsters making $300k/year. And I think you may have misunderstood me - my point is this:

Major Premise: All investments require DD

Minor Premise: $50,000 TK doesn't pencil out to enough return so as to warrant proper DD/ time commitment/travel

Conclusion: $50,000 TK is not a viable investment.

Basic syllogysm, otherwise known as logic since the Greek times :)