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Updated about 3 years ago, 09/30/2021
COVID-19 vs. Basic Freedoms
Let me start by being crystal clear. I am very sympathetic to all of those who have been exposed to COVID-19 – those who have either struggled through severe (or even mild) symptoms and certainly those who have passed away or lost loved ones due to complications from this virus. The magnitude in which this virus has overtaken our entire world is unprecedented and we need to protect those who are most at risk… BUT, at a certain point, we need to ask ourselves, “Are we doing more harm than good by shutting down the entire country?”
This country was built on freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom to pretty much do whatever we want within the confines of the law. It’s our right as Americans to willfully make decisions that are in the best interest of ourselves and our families. Since when can a governing body tell us what we can and cannot lawfully do? I can’t go see my brother at his house (a private residence, by the way), under the pretense that we both agree to see each other, without the risk of being handcuffed, arrested and thrown into a police car?
Sure, we hear and read all about the death rate from COVID-19 and how the number of cases goes up by the thousands on a daily basis. Any death is a terrible death – no one wants to see anyone suffer or die because of an infectious disease. But we also need to take a look at the reality of these statistics. The people that are most at risk of developing complications from this virus are the elderly and those with pre-existing health conditions. The VAST majority of deaths related to this virus are those who fall into one or both of those categories.
For example, in New York, the epicenter of this virus in America, there have been 118,000+ confirmed cases and 10,000+ people have died from COVID-19. As of Monday 4/13, a total of 128 of these deaths were people who had no pre-existing health issues. On a percentage basis, that’s less than 0.11% death rate for those without pre-existing conditions. 0.11% - that’s the same death rate as Influenza.
If I want to take the risk and go outside, go to work, go to a sporting event, go to a concert, go to a bar, go to a restaurant, go to my brother’s house(!), then that it MY right to do that. If someone else wants to quarantine, stay home, not go to work, or not do anything social, that is THEIR right to do exactly that. We need to make decisions for ourselves, not be dictated to stay at home and wear a mask when I want to get into my car.
Yes, my real estate business has been put to a complete stop. Rents will be harder to obtain the longer this goes on and lender will be less likely to underwrite as things become more and more uncertain. That's not good news for any of us. But my frustrations go well beyond real estate. They expand to all aspects of human life and our civil liberties.
I can’t stand idly by and watch our country turn into a Totalitarianism state that I don’t even recognize anymore. It’s time to open up the country. It’s time to open up the economy. It’s time to get back to work and get back to our normal lives. If you agree (or even disagree), please respond back to this and let’s have a discussion about this.
Was locking down the economy the best idea?
Probably not.
Was there anything logically they could do with only about 4 weeks notice to try and wrangle 370 million people?
Probably not.
The best answer for what should have happened is probably between the two extremes of shutting down the country vs. herd immunity.
I agree that shutting down the economy was probably not the best thing for America.
Unfortunately, What other options did they have? No one knew how deadly the disease would be if everyone in America got it. Would you really want the government playing roulette with your parents and grandparents life because they didn't want people to lose money for a couple weeks?
Probably not.
***
Much like trying to move a huge cruise ship, they can't just cut a ribbon and open the country back up. It took a few weeks to shut down, it'll take a few weeks to open back up.
Originally posted by @Bryan Beal:
@Wendy Black never once did I say, or intend to say, anyone was expendable. Not you, not anyone.
I understand I may have overreached with the "Totalitarianism" comment in trying to get my point across but the point I'm trying to make is that there is way to keep the country and economy open and achieve a downward trend in COVID-19 infections. I also acknowledge that the way I wrote the original post made those to think my points were literal. At a certain point, as @Bill F. so poetically put it, the damage done by closing the economy outpaces the damage done by this disease. Personally, I think we're very close to that point. Obviously, there are many that disagree with this sentiment.
I knew this would be a hotly debated topic when I started this thread and as I said in the original post, I want to have open discussions about this and see how others feel.
We obviously disagree on much policy as I am not a fan of Mr. Garcetti but I'm glad you responded.
Me and 100% of my friends would all agree with what you said. Clearly the damage done with an extensive lockdown will outweigh the damage done by the virus itself. People have families to support, and when the pain of hunger outweighs people's desire to quarantine, the US will have no choice but to reopen everything again. Children will starve and get into very dangerous and messed up situations. Crime has already increased in many areas. On top of that, you STILL have the coronavirus to deal with.
The people who died from the coronavirus are for the most part 65+ year old people who likely would have died within the next few years from the flu or some other common disease. It is absolutely insane for the government to fine and arrest people for not wearing a mask or driving to go visit their friends. 99% of 80% of the population will survive and the number of deaths are dramatically overreported as any death from pneumonia or some other disease will be listed as a "COVID-19" death.
Actually, the government does have the right to shut down business in the case of an emergency. And the government is doing the right thing. By people not participating in the shutdown, they will not only infect themselves but other people. I don't think there is even a constitutional question here. Courts would not overturn what Governors are doing. We are not a totalitarian state and the Government would like nothing more than to allow the economy to return to normal.
We cannot open the country back up until the rate of infection drops.
I am sure you are well meaning, but your thought process is wrong. And thankfully you are in the far minority. I thank the millions of Americans who are sacrificing to address the largest health crisis of our lifetimes.
If it ever got to the point where basic freedoms and civil liberties were affected, there would be dozens of lawsuits, probably taken to the supreme court, which has unfortunately been infected with Trumps lapdog right wing judges who will do whatever he says.
#3 Investor Mindset Contributor
- Handyman
- Pittsburgh, PA
My uncle's unresponsive in Queens, NYC after being on a ventilator for two weeks. The coronavirus has cleared his system and my aunt never went down hard enough to go on a ventilator. He just won't wake up and now it's a race between waking up and kidney failure. I don't think you would like the phone calls we've been having on this death watch.
My wife works in a long-term care facility. They just confirmed their first case, everyone's getting tested, results in four days. My wife's self-isolating downstairs while I'm upstairs at our home.
You folks have your nice abstract argument about personal freedom and liberty, Murica's special privileges of liberty, social contracts and whatever else your little hearts desire. You can decide to open up the country and go cram yourself into an arena with 15K other screaming fans rooting for this or that team that you're not genetically-superior enough to have ever had a shot of joining. You just advocate and advocate away for what you want.
I don't leave the house without my respirator and face shield, I go nowhere I can avoid, and I curse the many, many idiots I see on my trips to Home Depot. I continue to keep working on my properties to make sure I'll be somewhere else for the next pandemic, preferably far, far, far the f**k away from wild-eyed crazies with no medical backgrounds who are suddenly virologists because they've watched an episode of House and know in their hearts they deserved better than the straight C's they got through high school.
Originally posted by @Damaso Bautista:
You said two things that make I agree with whole heartedly
" Drunk driving is both irresponsible and ILLEGAL"
"within the confines of the law"
You are in California so this applies to you.
California Government Code Chapter 7 California Emergency Services Act- Allows the government to make laws that we are seeing put into effect now during times of emergency IE: wearing face coverings outside, closing parks and beaches, restricting movements and crowded events.
Not following theses emergency laws is in violation of California Government Code 8665:
Any person who violates any of the provisions of this chapter or who refuses or willfully neglects to obey any lawful order or regulation promulgated or issued as provided in this chapter, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction thereof, shall be punishable by a fine of not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000) or by imprisonment for not to exceed six months or by both such fine and imprisonment.
So by you choosing to live in the state of California and being the law abiding citizen that you are
I would think you would agree that not complying with personal restriction at this time is both irresponsible and illegal
and that not complying will be outside the confines of the law.
You may not personally like it but its the law right now so you need to comply.
Damaso,
I agree with Bryan. No state can pass a law that is unconstitutional even though California constantly tries.
i think my wearing a mask is more to prevent me from infecting you than preventing you from infecting me.
so people that don't wear a mask, are putting me at risk. how rude!
liability car iinsurance is mandatory (collision & comprehensive is not). we all have to share the roads. Me having liability insurance is for your benefit not for mine.
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
If it ever got to the point where basic freedoms and civil liberties were affected, there would be dozens of lawsuits, probably taken to the supreme court, which has unfortunately been infected with Trumps lapdog right wing judges who will do whatever he says.
Sanjay,
Basic freedom have been taken away. Surely you heard about the pastor that was cited by police for having an outdoor service where people remained in their cars and he wore a face mask.
If your not familiar with our constitution, the bill of rights says something like congress shall pass no laws respecting the free exercise of religion. Also people's right to assemble. The superiority clause means states can't either.
Hopefully the Supreme Court continues to uphold the Constitution as written, regardless of who the Justices were appointed by. It's made us the greatest, most affluent nation on earth.
I agree that our system of government has a remedy for unconstitutional laws which is the court system. That has nothing to do with the passage of the laws. A law can be passed, voted in, signed in and enacted whether it is unconstitutional is something that is dealt with later in the court system.
A single person or a group of people can not themselves declare a law unconstitutional, that is reserved for the courts to decide.
If you know of another explanation of how laws are passed and enacted please educate me.
@Bryan Beal 100% agree... as Ben Franklin said, “Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.” If we give up some of our liberties now the government will know we are willing to give them up in the name of “safety”. Agreed it is morally wrong to not consider the safety of our American brothers and sisters and as Americans we should be careful and considerate, but when the government tells us we can’t go out and we let them, we are going down a dangerous path.
Originally posted by @Damaso Bautista:
I agree that our system of government has a remedy for unconstitutional laws which is the court system. That has nothing to do with the passage of the laws. A law can be passed, voted in, signed in and enacted whether it is unconstitutional is something that is dealt with later in the court system.
A single person or a group of people can not themselves declare a law unconstitutional, that is reserved for the courts to decide.
If you know of another explanation of how laws are passed and enacted please educate me.
Damaso,
A law does not have to be followed if it's unconstitutional on it's face. Just as a military order is invalid if it's unlawful or unconstitutional.
That is not to say you won't get arrested or face a court martial.
In the history of our country many sheriffs have disobeyed or didn't enforce laws they believed to be unconstitutional.
Alas though our union is imperfect and in the quest for power politicians do pass and enact laws they know or should know won't pass constitutional muster.
I heard a talk show host ask the Governor of New Jersey why he thought he had the power to make religious services unlawful. The Governor responded "that's above my pay grade". Pathetic.
I agree with you 100% and the arrest or court martial gets adjudicated in a court where it will be determined if a law is or is not unconstitutional.
Originally posted by @Damaso Bautista:
I agree with you 100% and the arrest or court martial gets adjudicated in a court where it will be determined if a law is or is not unconstitutional.
Damaso,
Sometimes by jury nullification as well
OK Great!
Originally posted by @Gary L Wallman:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
If it ever got to the point where basic freedoms and civil liberties were affected, there would be dozens of lawsuits, probably taken to the supreme court, which has unfortunately been infected with Trumps lapdog right wing judges who will do whatever he says.
Sanjay,
Basic freedom have been taken away. Surely you heard about the pastor that was cited by police for having an outdoor service where people remained in their cars and he wore a face mask.
If your not familiar with our constitution, the bill of rights says something like congress shall pass no laws respecting the free exercise of religion. Also people's right to assemble. The superiority clause means states can't either.
Hopefully the Supreme Court continues to uphold the Constitution as written, regardless of who the Justices were appointed by. It's made us the greatest, most affluent nation on earth.
No they havent been taken away, we are in a *temporary* quarantine due to a virus. Common sense dictates that getting rid of this virus is more important than you being able to go to church for a few months. What I was referring to is if this continues of for months/years on end. Then well have a constitutional crisis on our hands that will most probably involve lawsuits and the supreme court, who is SUPPOSED to keep the President in check.
Originally posted by @Jim K.:
My uncle's unresponsive in Queens, NYC after being on a ventilator for two weeks. The coronavirus has cleared his system and my aunt never went down hard enough to go on a ventilator. He just won't wake up and now it's a race between waking up and kidney failure. I don't think you would like the phone calls we've been having on this death watch.
My wife works in a long-term care facility. They just confirmed their first case, everyone's getting tested, results in four days. My wife's self-isolating downstairs while I'm upstairs at our home.
You folks have your nice abstract argument about personal freedom and liberty, Murica's special privileges of liberty, social contracts and whatever else your little hearts desire. You can decide to open up the country and go cram yourself into an arena with 15K other screaming fans rooting for this or that team that you're not genetically-superior enough to have ever had a shot of joining. You just advocate and advocate away for what you want.
I don't leave the house without my respirator and face shield, I go nowhere I can avoid, and I curse the many, many idiots I see on my trips to Home Depot. I continue to keep working on my properties to make sure I'll be somewhere else for the next pandemic, preferably far, far, far the f**k away from wild-eyed crazies with no medical backgrounds who are suddenly virologists because they've watched an episode of House and know in their hearts they deserved better than the straight C's they got through high school.
My sentiments exactly.
Originally posted by @Tanner Johnson:
@Bryan Beal 100% agree... as Ben Franklin said, “Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.” If we give up some of our liberties now the government will know we are willing to give them up in the name of “safety”. Agreed it is morally wrong to not consider the safety of our American brothers and sisters and as Americans we should be careful and considerate, but when the government tells us we can’t go out and we let them, we are going down a dangerous path.
Tanner,
It's amazing the number of people on this thread that are sheeple, willing to give up everything for the illusion of safety. Poverty, communism, fascism all kill way more people then any pandemic.
Not saying common sense precautions shouldn't be taken.
100 up votes to you if I could. Godspeed.
Gary
@Bryan Beal you go back to your normal life, I'm gonna keep social distancing thanks.
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Gary L Wallman:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
If it ever got to the point where basic freedoms and civil liberties were affected, there would be dozens of lawsuits, probably taken to the supreme court, which has unfortunately been infected with Trumps lapdog right wing judges who will do whatever he says.
Sanjay,
Basic freedom have been taken away. Surely you heard about the pastor that was cited by police for having an outdoor service where people remained in their cars and he wore a face mask.
If your not familiar with our constitution, the bill of rights says something like congress shall pass no laws respecting the free exercise of religion. Also people's right to assemble. The superiority clause means states can't either.
Hopefully the Supreme Court continues to uphold the Constitution as written, regardless of who the Justices were appointed by. It's made us the greatest, most affluent nation on earth.
No they havent been taken away, we are in a *temporary* quarantine due to a virus. Common sense dictates that getting rid of this virus is more important than you being able to go to church for a few months. What I was referring to is if this continues of for months/years on end. Then well have a constitutional crisis on our hands that will most probably involve lawsuits and the supreme court, who is SUPPOSED to keep the President in check.
Sanjay,
Of course they've been taken away my naive friend. If someone can occupy a rental home without paying the landlord, the LL property rights HAVE been taken away. If I can't go to church for Easter Sunday, my right to the "free exercise thereof" HAS been taken away. If a restaurant or other worker can't feed his family his right to earn a living HAS been taken away.
The fact that this is supposed to be temporary means nothing. The Constitution of The United States does NOT have an on off switch.
You can bet your bottom dollar our acquiescence on this attack on our freedom will cause the next attack to be far worse.
Gary
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
@Bryan Beal you go back to your normal life, I'm gonna keep social distancing thanks.
Danielle,
I don't think Bryan or anyone else is planning to go back to our normal life without common sense precautions.
I believe we are concerned with Governors who think that they have the right to issue unlimited "Executive Orders" that they think carry the force of law. They do not. A law must be promulgated in the legislative branch. Further, they MUST adhere to the US Constitution.
They fail spectacularly on both counts..
Stay well.
Gary
#3 Investor Mindset Contributor
- Handyman
- Pittsburgh, PA
You got a hurricane forming over the Atlantic, do you ask a taxi driver to ask you where it's going? Earthquake devastates a major city, do you find a juggler to tell you where the tsunami's about to hit? But when its a pandemic...oh, everybody knows all kinds of things and has all kinds of high-falutin' ideas. Me, I'm going to fix my houses and do what my doctor friends suggest.
@Gary L Wallman
"Common sense" is anything but common. Four weeks ago, when I started wearing my P100 respirator filters to go to the grocery store, people laughed at me. Ain't no one laughing now.
@Tanner Johnson
You obviously don't know that Ben Franklin died of lung disease, for Christ's sake. Ben Franklin would have been all about the social distancing right now. He would have been on that like flies on a pig in a sty latrine.
If you want even more loudly and proudly ignorant politicians leading us, turn out in force at the next election and vote them in. All of you came out of the woodwork to pull a lever for some of the current ones. Convince some more friends to come visit the ballot box in November. I'll do the same.
Originally posted by @Gary L Wallman:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Gary L Wallman:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
If it ever got to the point where basic freedoms and civil liberties were affected, there would be dozens of lawsuits, probably taken to the supreme court, which has unfortunately been infected with Trumps lapdog right wing judges who will do whatever he says.
Sanjay,
Basic freedom have been taken away. Surely you heard about the pastor that was cited by police for having an outdoor service where people remained in their cars and he wore a face mask.
If your not familiar with our constitution, the bill of rights says something like congress shall pass no laws respecting the free exercise of religion. Also people's right to assemble. The superiority clause means states can't either.
Hopefully the Supreme Court continues to uphold the Constitution as written, regardless of who the Justices were appointed by. It's made us the greatest, most affluent nation on earth.
No they havent been taken away, we are in a *temporary* quarantine due to a virus. Common sense dictates that getting rid of this virus is more important than you being able to go to church for a few months. What I was referring to is if this continues of for months/years on end. Then well have a constitutional crisis on our hands that will most probably involve lawsuits and the supreme court, who is SUPPOSED to keep the President in check.
Sanjay,
Of course they've been taken away my naive friend. If someone can occupy a rental home without paying the landlord, the LL property rights HAVE been taken away. If I can't go to church for Easter Sunday, my right to the "free exercise thereof" HAS been taken away. If a restaurant or other worker can't feed his family his right to earn a living HAS been taken away.
The fact that this is supposed to be temporary means nothing. The Constitution of The United States does NOT have an on off switch.
You can bet your bottom dollar our acquiescence on this attack on our freedom will cause the next attack to be far worse.
Gary
The Patriot Act after 9/11 was an assault on civil liberties.
Either way go to church. If it happens you have Covid and infect someone else, YOU are liable for all healthcare costs they incur. If they die, you are legally liable for that. If you're not liable then the church management is. Someone HAS to be. Otherwise you're proposing a situation with no personal responsibility or liability.
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Gary L Wallman:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Gary L Wallman:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
If it ever got to the point where basic freedoms and civil liberties were affected, there would be dozens of lawsuits, probably taken to the supreme court, which has unfortunately been infected with Trumps lapdog right wing judges who will do whatever he says.
Sanjay,
Basic freedom have been taken away. Surely you heard about the pastor that was cited by police for having an outdoor service where people remained in their cars and he wore a face mask.
If your not familiar with our constitution, the bill of rights says something like congress shall pass no laws respecting the free exercise of religion. Also people's right to assemble. The superiority clause means states can't either.
Hopefully the Supreme Court continues to uphold the Constitution as written, regardless of who the Justices were appointed by. It's made us the greatest, most affluent nation on earth.
No they havent been taken away, we are in a *temporary* quarantine due to a virus. Common sense dictates that getting rid of this virus is more important than you being able to go to church for a few months. What I was referring to is if this continues of for months/years on end. Then well have a constitutional crisis on our hands that will most probably involve lawsuits and the supreme court, who is SUPPOSED to keep the President in check.
Sanjay,
Of course they've been taken away my naive friend. If someone can occupy a rental home without paying the landlord, the LL property rights HAVE been taken away. If I can't go to church for Easter Sunday, my right to the "free exercise thereof" HAS been taken away. If a restaurant or other worker can't feed his family his right to earn a living HAS been taken away.
The fact that this is supposed to be temporary means nothing. The Constitution of The United States does NOT have an on off switch.
You can bet your bottom dollar our acquiescence on this attack on our freedom will cause the next attack to be far worse.
Gary
The Patriot Act after 9/11 was an assault on civil liberties.
Either way go to church. If it happens you have Covid and infect someone else, YOU are liable for all healthcare costs they incur. If they die, you are legally liable for that. If you're not liable then the church management is. Someone HAS to be. Otherwise you're proposing a situation with no personal responsibility or liability.
The patriot act was the most misnamed legislation ever. Anything but Patriotic and a full out assault on civil liberties. Yours and mine. Hasn't helped catch anyone. But has given way more power to our intelligence agencies. Shameful.
Originally posted by @Jim K.:
You got a hurricane forming over the Atlantic, do you ask a taxi driver to ask you where it's going? Earthquake devastates a major city, do you find a juggler to tell you where the tsunami's about to hit? But when its a pandemic...oh, everybody knows all kinds of things and has all kinds of high-falutin' ideas. Me, I'm going to fix my houses and do what my doctor friends suggest.
@Gary L Wallman
"Common sense" is anything but common. Four weeks ago, when I started wearing my P100 respirator filters to go to the grocery store, people laughed at me. Ain't no one laughing now.
@Tanner Johnson
You obviously don't know that Ben Franklin died of lung disease, for Christ's sake. Ben Franklin would have been all about the social distancing right now. He would have been on that like flies on a pig in a sty latrine.
If you want even more loudly and proudly ignorant politicians leading us, turn out in force at the next election and vote them in. All of you came out of the woodwork to pull a lever for some of the current ones. Convince some more friends to come visit the ballot box in November. I'll do the same.
Totally sensible to wear a mask if you wish. I assure you people are still laughing.
Originally posted by @Tchaka Owen:
That alone is reason to quarantine. My former teammate was asymptomatic and only tested because her employer required her to do so. They found out she'd infected 3 coworkers without even knowing it. I'm calling "Game Over" without even hitting on any other points. There's nothing else to discuss.
How do they know that she infected the others? If she is asymptomatic, then how do they know when she got it, and from whom? Perhaps one of the other 3 coworkers infected her and the others.