What's with Contractors that will not answer their phone or return calls?

[Account Closed]

So I am looking for a new general contractor and/or subs to make sure I have a back-up and a back-up to the back-up if need be for my projects that need rehab.

I vet the ones that seem like a good fit from as many resources as I can find before I give them a call. I even look up the ones that have a Corp or LLC at the Secretary of State to see if they are legit, in good standing and how long they have been in existence (amazing that some are not in good standing but still doing business as usual but that is neither here no there).

Next, I give them a call. Some are small operations, others are moderately big. Some have been in business for decades with second generation owners, some are newer with only a few years in the business.

Without fail, the vast majority of my calls (70% plus) go straight to a voice message/voice mail system. I go ahead and leave a clear detailed message with my phone number, twice, in most cases and request a call back. I explain in my message that I have current projects and that I am looking for somebody to build a long term relationship with as a contractor for my future acquisitions.

Without fail, NONE of the ones that I leave messages for return the call......for over two weeks.

From the beginning of my search, I started a spreadsheet and a log to track who I called, when I called and what the result was.

Giving them the benefit of the doubt, I called the first batch again (the 70% non responders that did not return my first call) over two weeks later with a new project that I need bids on. This time, only 40% of actually picked up their phone on my second try.....over two weeks later. Again the vast majority of my calls go straight to a voice message/voice mail system where I leave another detailed message with my phone number and request a call back. Again, without fail, NONE of the ones that I leave messages for return the call......for over 6 days and counting.

I also called some new ones the same day I called back the first batch and I am now tracking those but.......the trend is the same for the new ones as well.

Of course, this exercise helps me eliminate those that I would never work with. I will not keep trying to contact them. 

It made me wonder though, is this kind of response/ non response typical with Contractors (small, medium or large operations) in other areas or am I alone in my experience?

[Cecil Russell]

I have had to have work done on my house and the best place to find RELIABLE contractors nationwide is at http://www.homeadvisor.com/ This is a nationwide service. Hope that helps.

Cecil Russell

[Account Closed]

@Mark Whittlesey @Dawn Anastasi @Annette Hibbler @Karen Margrave @Cecil Russell 

Thank you all for your contributions to the thread and your insights.

It appears that many from Coast to Coast have experienced the same issues and frustrations with contractors that I have so this is not isolated to my market.

[Matthew Paul]

I am a contractor , I call everyone back .   It is true , a lot of contractors are good at their trade , but not business . Someone rehabbing a house cant afford the contractors that are both good in their trade AND good business people . Why ?   The guy that looks at the job is the salesman , he is paid on commission , as high as 15% depending on the job.  Then there are the workers , most likely they are subs  the contractor marks them up .  Then there are materials , the mark up , good businessmen mark up their materials . Then there is the contract , it favors the contractor 150% , weasel clauses galore .  Most of the good businessman contractors havent picked up a tool in years .

[James Wise]

Originally posted by @Mark Gallagher:

@Account Closed yeah basically what I'm saying is these guys will never admit they're bad at managing a business. But if you can keep them busy, they'll be invaluable to you. They won't have to pick up a phone, worry about where their next pay is coming from. Most of them already have all the tools. They thought they could do it on their own but they don't understand how much work you have to do besides the actual "work"! 

They probably don't have the money to actually go and purchase supplies (goes hand in hand with poor business skills). So I would go and purchase the materials with them. You have to be careful the materials don't go missing. So hopefully you can get at least a reference or two, check the tax records to see where they live (if they own a home) etc. As long as you dangle the pay in front of them and don't give it to them, your materials should stay put unless they're a total loser. You want to find the guy/girl who's in the middle. Not a drunk/druggie, just good at contracting but bad at running a business. Make sure they're not stealing/over buying supplies, and pay them at the end of the week and you'll likely be saving 50% for a little extra legwork on your part.

If you call the guy with the biggest ads in the yellow pages, you're going to pay 3x as much. But you'll have to do no leg work and no babysitting. 

Mark, I think your spending to much time on craigslist. 

[Account Closed]

@James Wise 

@Mark Gallagher 

I got a good chuckle from the comment by James.

However, you can get good deals on Craigslist.....including contractors if you can find them and work it out.

It may be worth the time and work invested in the long run once you weed them out and find good ones that will stick with you.

[Account Closed]

I think you will get a call back if you say I will pay you to give me an estimate. Most GC been burnt by investors getting an estimate and never hire them to do the work. I notice here in Dallas a GC will come out and give a verbal estimate, but if you want a written report, they charge you because you will use that report to get a better deal with another GC.

Joe Gore

[Account Closed]

@Matthew Paul 

Thanks for the inside look into the mark-ups.

Knowing this, is it plausible that a good business man and contractor all in one would sacrifice some of the mark-ups in exchange for volume over time?

As a contractor how would you want this structured if you would consider it?

[Account Closed]

Yes, these people are the type that you need to hang a carrot in front of their face to get anything. Return phone calls are rare unless they are owed something, want something from you...ive found

[Jody Young]

@Account Closed Can you imagine if it's this difficult to sign up to give your money to one of the contractors for their service, how difficult would a call back be if there was an issue that they should come back and correct?

[Jody Young]

Originally posted by @Account Closed:

I think you will get a call back if you say I will pay you to give me an estimate. Most GC been burnt by investors getting an estimate and never hire them to do the work. 

Joe, 

What's a reasonable cost for a written estimate? 

[Account Closed]

Here in Dallas normal $100.

Joe Gore

[Terri Lewis]

Well @Account Closed  you haven't called us yet! lol I have to admit an email is a lot easier when were busy. I generally where my blue tooth so I can answer easily. I have to aggree with many of the coments. It's hard to go give bids when we are not feeling like it is going to go forward. We do how ever many times bid jobs that the property owner, has several people bid. When that is done it feels like they are just going to go with the low ball hungry one and not be concerned with the timing and quality.  We like to make the use of our crews, and that we become your number one call. Might be a little high on some bids and a little low on other ones. All works out in the end for everyone.

We bid, I think 3 or 4 jobs in South Bend this week. All low end housing so not much work to them or time. 

[Timothy Riley]

@Account Closed 

[Timothy Riley]

@Account Closed 

Tim

[Ashton Astillero]

@Account Closed 

This reminds me of principles from the E-Myth. Some GCs may be great at what they do, but as Michael Gerber put it, the GCs like and are good at their trade but not the business aspect. 

You'll probably have better experience communicating with an established construction company that has a team that deals with all the paperwork, but those guys come with a certain price tag. I've never worked with one, but from what I hear, they're not usually within the typical range that investors(at least that I personally know of) wouldn't want to pay. 

That being said, it's up to you to decide whether to work with the little guys and maybe even form a working relationship with them while dealing with the quality(or lack thereof) in their work and business ethics; or, find an established construction company that would maybe give you deals if you give them volume work or put up the money that they charge. 

Can't have it all right? It'd be too easy. Cheers

[Mark Gallagher]

@James Wise 

@Account Closed 

James, I've never hired a contractor from craigslist. I've hired from referrals only. Bottom line is I know how much something should cost to me to be done, at a fair wage to the contractor. Case in point I had 2 referrals give me pricing on rough electrical. This is a 2 day job. First guy quotes $1300 plus $500 in materials. I say no way. 2nd guy comes through, quotes me $1800 and I tell him no thanks. 2nd guy says well what are you going to pay. I said well this is a straightforward 16 hour job. I'll buy the materials, you handle the work. $300/day for electrical work is more than fair. I said I'll pay you $600 for the job and I'll buy the materials. He agreed. I spent $180 on materials (which I have some left overs to return). So I got a "$1800" job done for $780. Over half off. The guy didn't have to write estimates, buy materials. He showed up, did the work (and didn't even work a full 2 days) I saved $1020. Bottom line, know how much something should cost you. 

[Matthew Paul]

Originally posted by @Account Closed:

@Matthew Paul 

Thanks for the inside look into the mark-ups.

Knowing this, is it plausible that a good business man and contractor all in one would sacrifice some of the mark-ups in exchange for volume over time?

As a contractor how would you want this structured if you would consider it?

No , not ever , my cost dont change , prices are always on the rise . I am in business ,there is no reason to leave money on the table .I dont need practice . I can make 10K profit in a week , why should I spend 3 weeks to make the same 10K profit.  I work straight for homeowners , we are generally backed up 2 to 3 months steady with projects in addition to the little 4K to 5K jobs that I fit in during the projects .  Rehabbing for investors just doesnt pay in my area . 

I dont want my time monopolized by 1 customer , it is foolish to put all your eggs in one basket .  I have heard many times from customers  " I have 6 to 7 projects coming up , If you give me a great price you will probably get them all "  That works on the new contractors in business.  My reply to this is that I will give you my regular fair price on the first 6 , and I will discount the last one .

[Account Closed]

@Account Closed @Account Closed 

Thank you all for your contributions to the discussion. 

This is what makes BP such a great community.

[James Wise]

@Mark Gallagher 

it's rather surprising you are not using craigslist & hire only off referrals considering that you hire guys "who probably don't have the money to buy supplies"

You get what you pay for folks.

[Terri Lewis]

I agree with @James Wise you get what you pay for. I was also thinking yesterday, the statement of the profit from hiring a GC that oversees the work vs. being the GC. When we do bids we basically charge as though we personally are doing the work. Then we have several crews that don't want the admin side and just love to go and make a difference at the property. They are very happy with what they get paid and can just go home at the end of the job. 

So @Account Closed  It all depends on what you are wanting out of a contractor. If you have the time and patients to weed through crews until you find the good ones and know what they are capable of, then you will save some money but will be spending time getting to the point that you can send who, to do what you need, and know that it will be done right. We are in an area of a lot of people that have a lot of knowledge of building. We are also in an area that a lot them say they know but either don't or they don't have the ethics to do the right quality of work. I could almost right a book about the bad workers we've gone through to get the good ones. The extra money we have spent on bad work I could at least bought a few properties with. 

We spend money to go out look at the property, take measurements, find the right materials, and give the bids. Then we have to take time to go and check on the work during and after they complete it. Not to mention the insurance, and the money set aside for gas or materials. A place to keep everything. Need to keep things continuously rolling with new bids and GC the work. Sometimes fronting funds for the guys to get back and forth. All costs have to come from somewhere. 

We also feel the need to do the first jobs for new clients, to make sure they are what they say, and will follow through with payments. We have run into some in that way too. They say they are financially sound and can handle paying. Then when the final payment time comes we have to wait. That's even after checking on them prior to giving bids.

One bad instance on a sub:

We were at a full rehab helping finish because the guy and his crew were to close to the dead line and there was too much left to do. We were not going to let it go past due date. The day I was there the whole day, he had left for lunch for about 4 hours with the girlfriend "who was on his team" then that night left with the wife for 3 hours for dinner. When they returned, I knew he was drunk. He stated he had worked 18 hours that day. I let him have it and told him he was done.  I explained that during those 18 hours he was gone 7. Figured out though why he was running behind. I also saw tools that were from his previous job "marked with their name". I watched him at that job off and on, and really thought he would make a good worker for us. 2 years of of watching didn't help me make a good choice.  Until he was working for us, I had no idea he had a drinking or relationship problem. The wife was upset a few days before this, thinking he was running around on her. At that point I just thought she was upset and not understanding the hours he was working. That's why he started having her come and help after she got off her day job and probably why his other guy walked a few days prior to all this. That's just speculation on that though. We had 2 other crews at this site doing other work that were grumbling about this guy, but had to go and see for ourselves anyhow, and because some subs say things to get others in trouble. Another issue that just happens with some of these guys. Bad mouth one to try to get them out and get more of the work.

lol these guys can create so much drama if you let them, that interfere with what your main objective is, and what theirs should be. Getting the job done. We have learned to check things out but laugh at some of their statements. Can't let all that get to us. 

[Terri Lewis]

@Account Closed states when you know your costs both material and labor. Purchase the materials, then you can contract a sub for the right price and not have the mark up on materials. Saves quite a bit of money for the overall project. 

Still a lot depends on the size of the job and if you have the time to general it. 

[Mark Gallagher]

@James Wise "most" guys don't have the money for the material if you're running in the low to mid scale contractor level. If someone's in the phone book, all over the internet, lettered trucks, etc - they're going to have the funds to purchase materials. 

I don't need to pay for that overhead because I know how repairs should work and how they should look. I'm not completing $1M rehabs. These are homes in the $100-$200K range. They don't need to be pieces of art when finished. So I can't afford to pay someone 3-4x as much on these types of jobs. 

Case in point, my first rehab - called the guy who had the fancy trucks, internet ads, etc. His bid to wire a house - $22,000. A referral $5,000. All permits were pulled and work done 100% correctly. The contractor was also insured. $22,000 was my entire budget for the whole project. I was 100% satisfied with the work. A couple extra phone calls to make sure work was progressing, and I stopped in a few times, but that's certainly worth $17,000. 

"To each their own" would be seem to fit in more here, rather than "you get what you pay for" - just my opinion. 

[Terri Lewis]

@Mark Gallagher $22k is quite high. I have subs that will do a 2 story 1800 sq ft. all new for $6k and they supply the materials. Highway robbery that would have been for you. It's still back to knowing your costs, and having the crews or subs lined up. Depends on how many rehabs you have to keep them busy and happy. I think we get by because of a lot of work. They don't mind a few days off here and there, but they work cheap for a variety of reasons. Both volume and the no administrative responsibilities. Also the time and expense we have already put in to find the good ones. I look back and am very happy we are through the weeding out. I'm sure as we grow though we will add more and have to do some more weeding, just that from the experience we know to keep checking in on them. Good point Mark, stopping in and seeing what is going on, helps keep them on their toes and lets them know you are staying on top of the project.

[Andrew Bolt]

Your best bet is to network through social media or put an ad on craigslist, my other recommendation is not to leave a detailed message. "Hi, this is (your name) I have a project I'd like an estimate on please call me back at (your number) at your earliest convenience, Thank you" now if they don't call back than that's on them you keep calling till you get someone. Another thing to keep in mind is when you do finally get someone on Board make sure they do quality work and have verifiable reference as well as a portfolio and make sure you're comfortable with them. There's so much more i could detail but the rest is just common sense, hope this helped.

[Matthew Paul]

In maryland you have to have a home improvement license ( MHIC )  . Maryland law allows the contractor to get 33% as a deposit when a contract is signed.  Another 33% when the job starts , and the balance upon completion.  When we do work , my company can easily buy materials , but why , I want the customer to have skin in the game , we dont give interest free loans , we dont risk our funds on someone elses project .  If a customer doesnt want to give a deposit , we move on , these are generally tire kickers . 

We structure our payment schedule , 1/3 at contract signing , 1/3 when we are approx two thirds thru the job , 2 weeks before we call for final inspections we require payment of 90% of the balance due including all 'extras"  the remaining balance 7 days after work has been completed . 

IMHO any contractor that doesnt  have a signed contract detailing the full scope of work to be performed , and earnest money from the customer , is setting themselves up fpr failure . I have heard too many times from other contractors where the customer has money problems just as the job is near completion .