All Forum Posts by: Mark H.

I just wanted to clarify - the manufacturers of these systems don't want you to price shop. They want your Hvac guy to be able to pull any number he likes out of a hat & you'll take that price or freeze (or bake, here in the desert!). I'm all for capitalism & making an honest profit, but I've yet to see a housing-related trade that charges so much & delivers so little on such a consistent basis.

The more you learn about the Hvac trade, the more you'll see problems. Cheesy installs are the norm, proper sizing is a lost art, and *good* advice about efficiency is buried in a sea of marketing horse-****.

Don't forget either, that this is an industry that just got off the 30% government tax-credit "gravy train". I mentioned this "corporate welfare" on one of the Hvac forums a while back & the thread was deleted. The tax-credit allowed the welfare mentality to fester amongst those in that industry- when "the government" is footing 30% of the bill, pricing gets inflated.

I absolutely agree with @Steve B that lots of people who can Ill-afford it will get raked over the coals on new furnaces, or patch old ones because of the rampant opportunism & greed in the trade. The Hvac trade will (and currently are) using the "new law" to set off another round of gouging.

Drilling a hole in a roof (or the side of a house) isn't a big deal, and PVC pipe is cheap & easy to work with. There's a way to mount a furnace in an attic, or in the center of a house, or any other situation that can be encountered, and any real *professional* should be able to figure it out without whining about how "hard" their job is or adding thousands of dollars to the bid.

Not to pick at the original poster too much, but I think he *almost* got sucked into a "plausible lie". An opportunistic Hvac guy was trying to secure a bonus in the early season by selling a bunch of outdated furnaces, under the premise of "the mean old government" increasing his costs. "buy now, or be priced out of the market forever"...

Anyone here heard that before?

I like this one -
http://www.aarp.org/money/investing/investment_property_calculator.html

Don't they have scanners & email in Europe?

I dunno- is there anyone on BP who ever "won" a bidding war & still thinks they got a "deal" after a year or two? I'd certainly overbid on a short-sale listed under the comps, but those deals still have to appraise because I use bank financing..

But generally "bidding war" = me stepping out of the way & making some popcorn.

Here's a 90% efficient furnace for $775.. including a horizontal install kit.

http://acunitsdirect.com/gks90703bx-70-000-btu-92-1-efficiency-single-stage-burner-multi-speed-blower-upflow-horizontal-application-goodman-gas-furnace.html

How much was your last 80% efficient furnace?

was it $850 less than $775 (-$75)? !!!

I mean, if you want to pay your HVAC guy an *extra* $2500 to install it, I'm sure he'll go along..

These are *appliances* not magic beans... don't overpay...

I can understand wanting to "smooth things out" & not allow them to hold your other deal hostage, but I'd have serious reservations about entering into any other deals with this broker.

If the fee truly wasn't mentioned in your contract with the broker, taking $350 from the deal in the hopes that you wouldn't notice is *theft*. Sure, the thief is wearing nice clothes & driving a bimmer, but $350 is $350.

If a homeless guy walks into a Wal-mart around here, loads $350 worth of merchandise into a cart & tries to walk out the door, he's going to jail.

As a felon.

And he's probably getting tasered if he raises a fuss.

Just because the attempted robbery was done over the phone by a white-collar criminal doesn't mitigate things.

If anything it's worse.

In my state, ( I know Florida is sometimes different), a RE Broker is a "fiduciary".. required *by law* to act in your best interests. Stealing from you isn't helping you.

I know these "fees" are becoming more common in the industry, and if it's in the contract, that's one thing. But if it isn't in the contract, that's another thing entirely.

Joel mentioned that there isn't much money in these deals, and I agree there isn't, but that doesn't justify theft.

Convenience-store clerks don't make much money either, but they don't get to raid the till to make up for it.

I'm telling ya- grandma's house is in Michigan - the 90% efficient furnace we put in her place was about $1k, we also put in central air (about $1k), and that included new copper lines for the a/c, the pvc for the vent and a new sheet metal plenum.

The cheapest I've ever seen any gas furnace was a close out 80% no-name unit on the web for about $600.. It isn't a huge difference in price.

If you want to get angry & write your congress-critter about something, make the letter about something *useful*. Every major Hvac company has contracts with their supply houses that prohibit advertising the *price* of the unit.

Do you think milk would be $1.99 a gallon if no grocery store was allowed to advertise the price they were charging? Those same Hvac manufacturers have explicitly "banned" Internet sales of their product. Goodman has a weasel-worded rant on their *website* claiming that we'll all die in fiery explosions if people are allowed to price-shop over the web, so,( handily,) they intend to "void" the warranty on web sales. Or phone orders, or any other deal that *doesnt* allow your local Goodman dealer to charge whatever *he* wants for your "magic heat box".

I can give you some web-links for dealers that come close to wholesale to the public if you want some idea of what the "magic heat boxes" really cost.

In this part of the country, we do attic-mounted split-systems all the time - the condensate from a furnace will go out the same $.99 PVC pipe we use for a/c condensate. It's easy enough that a trained monkey could do it, which is fortunate, because that's a large segment of the Hvac industry out here.

Seriously - worry about the anti-competitive / price fixing behavior & you'll be able to afford the *good* equipment without selling a kidney.

Awesome catch!

I'm not sure if it would work as a buyer, but ive heard or cases where sellers directed the title office to *not* cut a commission check after closing. The deal still goes through, just don't pay vendor "x". (now). I'd be tempted to hold up the buy-side commission for a while & let that broker call *you* & explain himself/herself.

The price won't be significantly higher, it isn't appreciably different now. PVC can go out the side of the house - it doesn't need to go through the roof. Hvac is one of the trades with the highest markups on equipment, usually marketing through fear and fluff. The materials & equipment are the cheap part. The last 90% efficient furnace with a/c that I installed in grandma's house cost about $2k, for everything, including a plenum & ul approved duct tape.

IMHO, we need *more* "government interference" in the Hvac trades, specifically some anti-trust & price fixing investigations. The Hvac manufacturers have been getting away with some snarky business that wouldn't fly in any other industry.

@Aaron C.
My understanding is that respa doesn't apply to cash purchases ..

I'm not saying the fee is justified, or reasonable .. Far from it..