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All Forum Posts by: Justin Thind

Justin Thind has started 4 posts and replied 14 times.

Post: 1031 Exchange After Closing On New Property?

Justin ThindPosted
  • Investor
  • Metro Detroit
  • Posts 14
  • Votes 12

So I have a rental. It has appreciated a good amount and I am ready to sell it for a decent profit various reasons. We won’t go into them. 

However, I just reached the decision to sell it an hour before posting this (so that part of the process has barely started).

I have an eye on a specific property I really want, but it just went up today and already has 32 saves on Zillow. Simply put, it will not last for over a month.

Therefore, IF I want this property, I cannot wait for my current rental to sell, get the funds in the 1031 Exchange’s escrow, and THEN pursue this house, as it will certainly be gone. 

Therefore, what are my options?

Could I close on this new rental’s by using my own cash on the downpayment, and then retroactively use this property for that 1031 from the property I’ll be selling?

I’ve never done a 1031 before and every Google search along the lines of “retroactive 1031 exchange” is about reversing the sale of a house you just bought, via a 1031.

I’m talking about buying a house weeks before your old rental sells, and somehow having that whole transaction fit under one 1031 exchange.

Last thing I would want to do is pay pay the new property’s downpayment in cash, and then turn around and find out it doesn’t qualify for a 1031 since I bought it before selling the first house, and then also having to go buy another house with the 1031 funds, and never recoup my own cash I used on the new rental.

Hope that makes sense, I will be happy to clarify if it doesn’t. Thanks in advance for any help!

Post: Need to switch Property Managers…

Justin ThindPosted
  • Investor
  • Metro Detroit
  • Posts 14
  • Votes 12

My SFM closed on June 23rd. It’s now August 23rd, and ZERO work has started. I put 8 of those 60 days on inactivity on me because I’ve been sitting here weighing my options, but 52 days of no working being done on the interior, electrical, attic, foundation, roof, etc.

After it took weeks and weeks to get estimates on those things, I got very inflated estimates on everything except the interior flooring (which seemed fair). I got quoted $4k just to remove some concrete before doing $25k of work on the foundation, when the inspector told me pre-purchase that the overall project should be about $7k. I even got quoted $500 to throw dirt around the exterior of one corner of the house to cover exposed foundation (a bad of dirt is $2.97). Moreover, the communication is not good. As a first time investor, I was told by the owner that they’d be my advisors and mentors in this process. Instead, it’s me constantly having the nudge them to do any work, and then only getting 30% of the estimates back every time I list to them what is needed (even though it’s truly their job to identify what is needed. Thank god I’m not an out of town investor lol)

Anyway, long story short, I am going to try to get out of my PM agreement with them…

Before I make that call tmrw or Thursday, I was hoping to get some actual recommendations from you all.

The house is in Hazel Park, so someone that manages Metro Detroit, please. Everyone on Google seems to have either only reviews from renters (not property owners), or doesn’t have reviews at all.

Thanks in advance!

Post: Inner-City Investing: What am I missing?

Justin ThindPosted
  • Investor
  • Metro Detroit
  • Posts 14
  • Votes 12
Quote from @Zach Oehlman:

Congrats on your first deal @Justin Thind!

And here is my opinion based on my personal experience.

I invested in my first rental properties in the south Chicago suburbs with very similar economics / pricing / rental rates / etc. 

I bougtht a $30,000 house that had had rents in the $1,100 - $1,200 range and taxes of $3K.

Over the next year I bought 8 more properties in places like Posen, South Holland, Riverdale, Sauk Village, etc.

And I will never do it again based on my personal experience.

The numbers looked great on paper but here is what you can't see on paper and only experience can show you.

1). Properties managers will make or break you and most property managers race to the bottom in price to get people's business and can't afford to operate at scale. This creates a challenge for you because the asset performance is only as good as your manager. 

2). Repairs cost the same no matter what the price of the home costs. Just because the house is cheap doesn't mean the repairs will be cheap. 

3). You need to look at the social economic development in the area. There is a reason the houses are priced the way they are priced in any market - that is why they call it "the market". The lure of a cheap property looks like a deal but if it was they would be flying off the shelf. I don't know the economic area you are pertaining to but I do know the "lense" you are looking through as I thought the same thing when I first got started.

4). Charging $1,200 a month in rent and collecting $1,200 a month in rent is two different things. I had tenants that were amazing and I had tenants that lived in my homes for a year without paying rent becuase they "knew the system" and we literally couldn't do anything about it. This comes back to poor property management but also local and state laws play into account. Local and state officials don't always understand economics / finance and make laws that are counterintuitive to creating economic development in an area and what ultimatly happens is the money leaves because the system doesn't work. You need to look at the economics in the area and see is it on the upswing, stable, or down swing.

And....

With all of this being said I know people who crush it in areas like this but they have boots on the ground and operate at large scale. They have their own property management team, own contractors, own leasing team, etc. so they control the entire supply chain.

Take a step back and understand the bigger picture and ask your self where do you see yourself in 5 - 10 years and then get started in that direction. If that means owning a large portfolio of properties in this area then do it....if not start with something that aligns with where you want to ultimately be.


 Really good stuff, thanks Zach. From an economic standpoint, the area is pretty high value. It's 4 miles south of the GM's Warren HQ, as well as a new Amazon Warehouse, a Chrysler plant, and several other factories. I also do think there's one property manager that I would feel comfortable with, thanks to a few phone calls with them + testimonials from people I was connected with.

The positives seem to end there with this particular house, though. People in the thread above (especially Travis) did a good job pointing out just how mistaken I was about the "turnkey" status of this house. Even with the duct work up top, I just assumed "Oh I'll pay someone a couple grand to nicely tuck it away" and didn't think about the implications of why it's like that to begin with.

So it seems like the takeaways from this thread are that it's not a bad plan to invest in cheaper houses in selective Detroit neighborhoods, but you better have a good property manager and you better be comfortable with the house (or budget appropriately if you know its in bad shape).

Post: Inner-City Investing: What am I missing?

Justin ThindPosted
  • Investor
  • Metro Detroit
  • Posts 14
  • Votes 12
Quote from @Scott Mac:

I'm looking at the Realtor posting and the Google Drive by of 20300 Albany St, Detroit, MI. 

Turnkey yes, but it looks inside in some rooms like a poverty palace. Outside looks pretty nice.

So I will just put some random thoughts about it.

They burned every house to the ground across the street, but this side survived unscathed--like a time capsule. So it looks uniform as you drive down the road--I think this is good.

Neighborhood. I would have someone scrape the grass back off the sidewalk where it's overgrown, for the whole block across the street and on the lot. Probably less than $200 (guessing) for a couple of hours work, and if you don't do it, no one will, and the neighborhood will look like its sliding vs being cared about. Plus I think it may draw just a little better renter. 

Also I would pester the city to remove the trees across the street at the between the lot lines (claiming rape hideouts, etc....) to open the whole strip up as a grass park like area where kids could play (more safely than now).

Curb appeal, I would try to remove some of those orange/brown bricks from the rear of the house and cement them up front where they are missing. Scrap all grass back from the sidewalk to make a nice straight edge, and power wash the sidewalk and any grease spots from the driveway to get them as white as possible. I would paint the gas pipe in the front white where the background is white to blend it in. I would NOT paint the front door, blue, red, black or pink.

Interior.  No basement shots (???) is it full of water up to your neck (???) The electrical in those metal conduits looks like the USMC Parris Island boot camp, or an auto body shop not a (HOME). I would have an electrician inspect the entire place, including the shed out back. While it may be rentable as is, I would assume a better renter would look elsewhere due to these conduit lines being exposed, so I would get a bid on having the wiring put inside the walls and the walls repainted.

 Kitchen. Basic kitchen looks rentable, BUT is there a dedicated circuit for a Fridge and a dedicated circuit for a microwave, are there enough outlets to be (modern). Black, white or stainless stove, fridge and range hood, looks good with white cabinets, there are none present--will you have to provide them to be competitive in the area?

 Bath. Substandard Slum looking bathroom. Only 1 bath for a 3 bedroom house, 2 would be optimal, but one will work. I would pull out the old tub and install a shower pan and shower enclosure 36 inches wide by the length of the tub, wide because some people like to eat a lot and a bigger shower means the won't be up against the walls. Those with little ones and babies like bathtubs, you may lose some of those possible renters--so its a judgement call re this.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/reviews/STERLING-Ensemble-32-in-x-60-in-x-74-1-2-in-Shower-Kit-with-Left-Hand-Drain-in-White-72180110-0/205694582/1

I would also put in an elongated power flush toilet and provide a free plunger.

If the vanity is old, I would put in a new one, so the bathroom looks sanitary and nice, because right now it looks raggedy.

Furnace. It looks like it's in a bedroom area (???) Is this code complaint in Detroit (???). Why is it up on the 2nd floor instead of in the basement (???) Why is it sideways (???) 

All of those holes around the ducts should be sealed. Is the furnace located in bedroom number 3, making it into a 2 bedroom rental vs a 3br? 

Those exposed ducts on the floor should not be accessible to renters, their kids will use them for toys and crush them. If the upstairs duct work and furnace are behind a wall with a door separate from the living area I would be ok with that, if not I would look at how to remediate that problem.

If it were mine, (Optimumly) I would want the furnace in the basement and another (at least) half bath upstairs.

I would also have a home inspection down with a written report and have a sewer line scope run, and a roof inspection plus a chimney inspection for cap or flue damage.

Building permits...check to see if they puled these, especially that furnace (why is it sideways (???)

.....So it is turnkey, but seems to have some issues that might limit getting the best renters in there, I like it's looks and the neighborhood looks ok (during the day) drive it at night and see if its a giant block party every night with everyone in the street all night partying and dancing (which could be a plus to some renters).

In reality it might make more money as is than if its fixed up
....so consider that too...

A Chrysler Unionized Auto Worker (probably a good renter) could walk to work, and there's a McD's and an Autozone within walking distance too.

Just my 2 cents...

Really appreciate this detailed assessment. Some of the bigger issues like why they’re hiding the basement and the state of the electricity will be uncovered and dissected during the inspection period.


As for everything else, I would be more than fine putting another 10k and finishing the bathroom, supplying appliances, and touching up the rest of the house.

The way I look at it - I’m then still getting a 50k house that’s better than many of the $85k houses in Warren just one mile north, while the rent is only $100 or so less per month.

So even with the flaws and observations you keenly pointed out, it doesn’t dissuade me at all, barring major issues that I wouldn’t know about until inspection. 

 
Yet, I still keep coming back to the fact that tons of smarter real estate investors in the area haven’t gotten this house (and many similar houses in Detroit) in the month+ they’ve been on the market. Just puzzling as to why, even if that house isn’t as turnkey as I may have thought.

Post: Inner-City Investing: What am I missing?

Justin ThindPosted
  • Investor
  • Metro Detroit
  • Posts 14
  • Votes 12
Quote from @Nicholas L.:

@Justin Thind

OK - I think it's better to stay in better areas

How's that?

If someone could, they obviously would. Most of this renter base can’t, unfortunately.

I don’t get this reply at all, unless you’re implying I wouldn’t be able to find renters at all. 

Post: Inner-City Investing: What am I missing?

Justin ThindPosted
  • Investor
  • Metro Detroit
  • Posts 14
  • Votes 12
Quote from @Nicholas L.:

@Justin Thind

-I don't know anything about Detroit

-I don't trust anything that anyone says about anything - it's my responsibility to verify everything.  not the agent, not the contractor, not the seller, not anyone but me

-maybe this house is located in a challenging neighborhood

-maybe some of the mechanicals need to be updated

-the bathroom doesn't look to be what I would consider done

=it doesn't have appliances

-I can't tell from the photos if it has 3 legit bedrooms, or if the attic or living spaces that aren't actually bedrooms are being counted as bedrooms (that's a big thing here in Pittsburgh, my market)

AND...

-there is no possible way you're buying a house off the MLS and netting $700 a month - it just ain't happening in today's market

so... you're right to be skeptical

hope this helps

Those are all good points, but my question was less about that particular house and more about that method of real estate investing. There are lots and lots of houses that are similar (maybe 5k+ more) but still much more affordable than just 2 blocks north).

Post: Inner-City Investing: What am I missing?

Justin ThindPosted
  • Investor
  • Metro Detroit
  • Posts 14
  • Votes 12

Hey everyone! I am about to close on my first single-family rental property soon, just two months after first dipping my toe into real estate research. It's in a regular B-grade type of area, and projects to have decent appreciation & good cashflow. Pretty ordinary stuff, but I'm already looking for the next deal. This time, maybe something different...

So when I posted this thread a little bit ago, one of the posters in there questioned my stance on avoiding inner-city properties, despite my plans to use always a property manager. I listed some reasons of avoidance that other trusted real estate pros told me including a lack of appreciation, higher repair costs (rougher tenants), higher vacancy rates, and occasional difficulty collecting rent.

Still, with that said, my eye kept wandering towards properties in Detroit city limits, and that brings me to posing the ensuing case to you all.

Looking at a property such as 20300 Albany St, Detroit, MI, it is listed for 39,900 and is turnkey (and looks pretty nice). The estimated monthly payment would probably be around $300 at the very most. Being moderately conservative, the estimated rent is looking like $1,100 per the BP calculator. Take out $110 from there for property management fees. Not including repair costs & vacancy, you're looking at a net profit of around $700

Not only is that the highest CoC return I've found (relative to non-Detroit addresses & neighborhoods), but I would also be able to pay this house off much more quickly than the other options in traditional neighborhoods and net its full potential much sooner.

So, my question to you all is this: What am I missing with these types of deals in general?

Let's say I'm okay with this house not appreciating much, and that I understand that I'll probably have to pay for slightly more repairs than with a house in Warren or Roseville for example. However, with that bottom line, why would that still not be worth it? Especially since I'm hiring a property manager regardless of where my houses would be.

Really appreciate any insight in advance! I'm sure many of you on this board (and many investors in my area) could easily afford houses like that in cash right now, yet I don't see those houses flying off the market at all, contrary to houses 2 miles north. I've gotta be missing something lol

(Note: The house I linked above is one of *many* similar options. My question is not about that house itself, otherwise I would've posted in the deal analysis subforum. My question is about this type of market/rental philosophy in general. Doesn't even have to pertain to Detroit. Take Baltimore, Cleveland, etc the same way).

Post: Starting out, gravitating towards traditional methods (SFH LTR)

Justin ThindPosted
  • Investor
  • Metro Detroit
  • Posts 14
  • Votes 12

Update, if anyone cares lol: Put in an offer today on a house I found yesterday & immediately went to go see. Already got a promising counter that I’m thinking of jumping on. Enjoying the process for sure.

Post: Starting out, gravitating towards traditional methods (SFH LTR)

Justin ThindPosted
  • Investor
  • Metro Detroit
  • Posts 14
  • Votes 12

 Justin, I genuinely don't care where you invest. 

But let's understand what's going on here. 

The property managers you are talking DO NOT DO BUSINESS IN DETROIT.

It's that simple. They don't understand anything beyond the suburbs and they choose not to operate in the city. So, do you think they'd tell you to invest in Detroit proper over the suburbs and steer your business away?

Yeah... no.

My point is to take everything with a grain of salt. Do your own research. Again, I'll repeat... you are on the ground there. If you don't actually take the time to understand your own market, well the reality is you shouldn't be investing in real estate at all.

Everyone told me the same garbage when I was getting started in 2019. So many naysayers about the city of Detroit. It was so loud that it finally made me want to look at it even further. I figured the risk was low (given price points) and upside unlimited.

I'm thankful every day that I went against the grain and invested in the city. It's literally been the best financial decision I've ever made.

 I should clarify - the two property managers I talked to *do* indeed do business in Detroit (and the surrounding areas as well), and still were pushing me towards the suburbs due to appreciation, since I will be holding onto these houses well into my own retirement age. With a 30-year outlook, they said that appreciation should be a bigger focus of mine than immediate cashflow, but that they're good with it if I choose Detroit at the end of the day.

Then the one local investor/real estate broker that I am leaning on for advice has invested in Detroit himself but had a bad experience, as the amount of repair costs he would have to spend after each tenant moved out greatly ate into his cashflow profit from the year prior.

With that said, I obviously understand that is a very, very small sample size and for every person that has a negative experience, there is one that has a positive one like yourself. Also, it's not lost on me that property managers would be getting a bigger cut per month on 10% of a suburban rental, given a higher rent, so that may be their agenda.

Either way, I appreciate you nudging me to continue diving into Detroit and asking questions, instead of ruling it out so quickly.

Post: Starting out, gravitating towards traditional methods (SFH LTR)

Justin ThindPosted
  • Investor
  • Metro Detroit
  • Posts 14
  • Votes 12
Quote from @Blake Novotney:

As far as what you mentioned with your plans to purchase a primary residence, I think the 5% option makes the most sense. If you are going to be using cash on hand to quickly invest in one or two additional properties, I'd want that extra money there. Your primary will (hopefully) appreciate regardless of what your downpayment is.


 Thanks for weighing in. Was hoping someone did touch on that point of mine and either reinforced it or debunked it. Glad to hear you agree!