All Forum Posts by: Harvey Levin

Quote from @James Wise:

Quote from @Richard Pallarino:

Hi y'all,

Any tips for places I should start looking into for properties to buy to then rent out to section 8 tenants? I've read about Cleveland, OH, Indianapolis, IN, Racine, WI, and Detroit, MI. Can anyone tell me if these areas are good places to do so based on experience? Any other places you can recommend are welcomed!

Thanks,

Rich

 People often try to compare Section 8 tenants vs regular tenants. You get a lot of people saying Section 8 tenants are tourble or Section 8 tenants are bad.

 When doing this people are missing the ball.

It's not Section 8 tenants vs regular tenants. It's having a rental in the ghetto vs not having a rental in the ghetto. If you buy a rental in the ghetto, you're going to get higher risk tenants. When dealing with a risky tenant pool, going with Section 8 reduces your rick because the tenants not paying the rent is the biggest risk you face when you've got a house in the ghetto.

In Indy most Section 8 rentals are not in the ghetto. They are in C or C+ areas.  We do not really have ghetto areas. yes, we have D-class war zones but Section 8 tenants do not move into those.  I prefer Section 8 in C Class (since 1985) because the tenancy typically is much longer than the market. Market tenants tend to move or buy houses as their  Income gets better. Most Section 8 tenants do not see incomes rise for very long.  They value having a nice place to live as they know there is not an abundance of landlords who will rent to them. I am only speaking for Indy as Section 8 as well as most aspects of Real Estate is different in each location. 

It is a very tough rental market with much longer vacancy time than usual. Rents have reached the point where many tenats are staying put because their current rents are lower. This is happening all across the country.  If the PM is doing proper marketing you might look at the location,  condition, upgrades and amenities to see if the price is justified. One other issue we have seen is that the old qualifier of rents x 3 = minimum income is becoming more and more difficult for many tenants especially in C class properties. 

@Richard Pallarino  Hi  I have been an Investor and PM in Indianapolis with a Section 8 focus since 1985. It has been very profitable for me.

I believe this will be much more localized than in other downturns due to a lack of supply. I feel that those who refinanced into historically low rates will not want to sell and buy and hold without refinancing to pull equity will be a more prevalent method. The CRASH of 2008 will not be repeated as the events are completely different. I see a stabilization of values for most markets and possibly a small decrease in value short term.  

@Shawn York  Thanks for your comments. The HAP contract has a provision for the Housing Authority to terminate in the event that program funding is not available but I do not this counts as the funding is there it just can't yet be released. It is in Part B section 4 b.4.  Section 7 3 states that after the 1st 2 months of the contract late fees can be charged to the HA. I have attempted to collect in the past  but IHA has no process for it and it has been rare that payments have been late enough to warrant the fees. The cost to continue to pursue this was more than the fees.  In this situation, it would not apply as  7 3 goes on to state that no late fee is owed if is due to factors beyond the HA's control. Clearly, this is beyond their control.  Disclaimer: I am NOT an attorney and this is only my personal opinion. 

Congratulations on having yours paid for. All of my low-income houses and doubles are also paid for.  I love all the free cash flow every month and am lucky enough to have reserves for both my portfolio and the company.  Covid was interesting because most of our Section 8 tenants lost income and became 100% government paid through 2020 and most of 2021.     I did speak with an IT consultant who has been involved in a couple of large company ransomware attacks and I was told realistically it could be at least  December before we would see the funds.  With Property tax due next month that is a concern for many of my clients and of course, the city is silent on any assistance in delaying that. 

This may turn into a great time to buy properties as those without reserves have no choice.  Personally, I hope not as I hate to see investors lose.

Here is the latest news clip but it doesn't really offer any new information.
 https://www.wishtv.com/news/lo...

I posted this in a different post yesterday when a  local PM advised asking tenants to pay the Section 8 rent portion  and if they did not pay to replace them with non-Section 8 tenants.   Unfortunately, the Media news is not providing accurate information.  

asking the tenant to pay the section 8 responsibility is a violation of the HAP contract See the Tenancy Addendum known as Part C of the HAP contract. Section 5 d. strictly prohibits this. It also has a provision in the same section that a tenant cannot be terminated for nonpayment by the Housing Authority.

I am an Investor since 1980 and have been utilizing the IHA Administered Section 8 program since 1985. This is the very 1st-time IHA has missed a payment schedule. Our PM company has been the only PM that has specialized in providing housing for Single Family Homes and Doubles since 2011. I fly to Washington DC once per year to cut through the BS and meet directly with the HUD Section 8 representative. I have also spoken on Landlord issues with the Section 8 program by invitation from HUD (not IHA). There is a lot of Mis Information out there. I would urge anyone who has Indianapolis Section 8 tenants to read all parts of the HAP contract and its addendums as well as read the most recent Administrative Plan to fully understand how the process works. The current situation is alarming but the FBI is working on assisting IHA in resolving the situation. This is a short-term issue and will be resolved.

If anyone wants to know more feel free to DM me.

@Shawn York   Hi Shawn, not sure why I didn't show up but I did see your post

@Kenny Hall   asking the tenant to pay the section 8 responsibility is a violation of the HAP contract See the Tenancy Addendum known as Part C of the HAP contract. Section 5 d. strictly prohibits this.  It also has a provision in the same section  that a tenant cannot be terminated for nonpayment by the Housing Authority. 

The FBI has been working with IHA since last week. They also have not had email as that was part of the hack so it is very hard to contact anyone. The city of Indianapolis is also involved in finding a solution as well as HUD. Dealing with government contracts has its pluses and minuses. This is the 1st time I have not received rent since I started with Section 8 in 1985. It has created a big problem for all owners, and tenants (they are not receiving the monthly utility allowance) as well as vendors of IHA. They are working on a temporary solution to provide payments and hopefully, that will be available soon.

Here is a news report from yesterday.     https://fox59.com/indiana-news...

I feel the pain. As an Owner, I have not received rent either on any of my over 40 Section 8 tenants and as  PM we are unable to receive fees on collected rents that we need to pay our staff and operating expenses.  Even with that, I am committed to utilizing the Section 8 program as it has been highly profitable in the past and I am sure it will remain so in the future. 

Lawerence and Warren Township are not Landlord friendly if you need to enforce the lease. The Mayor of Indy and City-County Council iare also not Landlord friendly.  More local landlords need to pay attention to those elections. 

Quote from @Aaron Porter:

I have heard through the grapevine... by no means direct from a source and you should definitely do your research on the matter.... But I have been told that if interest rates go up much more and if the real estate market drops banks are going to start calling HELOC's and if you have unused HELOC's the bank doesn't have to give you access to that money.

But I agree with William Harvey a HELOC would be much cheaper money.

HELOCS are a retail bank product with different rules than a regular mortgage. None of mine were called or reduced in the 2008 financial crisis but I do remember people saying to pull out as much as possible just in case. I was a commercial broker and saw a lot of commercial loans called. Usually, it was due to the Feds requiring the lender to balance the Asset to Liability ratios of the lender.  I do feel that if for a lot of the BRRR refi loans if the market drops by at least 20% AND any payments are missed foreclosure will happen much faster than back then. 

I started buying when investor bank rates were near20%  and inflation was high. Creative financing was the only way to buy.    I still own my 1st property. If you are a LONG TERM buy-and-hold investor and have ample reserves time is on your side.