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All Forum Posts by: Chris Rich

Chris Rich has started 0 posts and replied 102 times.

Post: Fork in the Road

Chris RichPosted
  • Property Manager
  • Orlando, FL
  • Posts 103
  • Votes 64

@Collin Jacobsen I'd echo what most of the others said-- if it's a good investment keep it for now.  Sounds like you have some PM knowledge yourself, so you could try self-managing from a far, and if that does not work then hire a PM company.  If you are in the industry, you would know what to look for in a PM company if you did need to manage yourself.

See if you cannot find some current college kids who may be below you to move in, so that you at least have a connection to one of the tenants who can help you as well.

Post: Statements That Potential Renter's say that make you nervous too?

Chris RichPosted
  • Property Manager
  • Orlando, FL
  • Posts 103
  • Votes 64
Quote from @Jenny Milu:

I'm new at this, so please be kind! 

This is my first MTR and only rental at this time, I had one set of traveling nurses who were awesome and I just got a call from a second potential renter, yay! The unit has been vacant for almost two weeks now and of course I'm getting nervous and feeling all sorts of inadequate with no leads in sight! On the phone, the renters wife made a comment like "It's not like we've had a history of not paying rent before so you don't need to be worried" and I wasn't worried... until that comment made me second guess. 

I have what I feel like all the proper precautions in place of background / credit /  employer and previous landlord checks in place... and I'm waiting to get the information from the potential tenant to start the verification process... Does anyone else struggle with similar feelings? Does it just take time? Any suggestions, comments, and encouragement is welcomed!

There is also the possibility that they are one of those people who values their credit score and paying bills on time, so the thought of not paying on time doesn't cross their mind.  If you are doing consistent vetting, I would not worry. 

Post: Overwhelmed First-Time Landlord Seeking Advice

Chris RichPosted
  • Property Manager
  • Orlando, FL
  • Posts 103
  • Votes 64
Quote from @MIke Brady:

Again, good advice. I just don't think I can swallow the costs.


What market are you in?  Based on our average rental rate across our portfolio, the 8% monthly fee comes out to less than $5 a day.  Sure, the leasing fee is a healthy chunk (50-75% of the first month), but overall I do not think $150 off the rent is that costly.  Like you said, the peace of mind / lack of stress is what you are searching for, it's tough to get rid of that if you are self-managing and it is something you are actively stressing about.

Post: Self-Manage Property I live in (Pros/Cons)

Chris RichPosted
  • Property Manager
  • Orlando, FL
  • Posts 103
  • Votes 64
Quote from @De-An Watkins:

Hello everyone! I bought a quad in my personal name as I am using my VA loan and will be living on site. I have a Property Management Business and would like to self manage to get the experience. Should I let the tenants know I'm the Property Manager or should I keep it anonymous since I'm on site? Should I not self manage since I'm on site? Pros and cons. Would love to hear your thoughts and experiences!

Thanks for your input 


Since you are living on site I would tell them who you are, I agree with Nathan, you do not want to lie to them.  You are also going to be able to better manage the properties yourself since you do live on site.  

With that said, set boundaries with the tenants.  Once they know you are the landlord and you are close, they may come to you for "emergencies" that are not emergencies.  Keep it professional and establish the expectations. 

Post: Alterations without consent

Chris RichPosted
  • Property Manager
  • Orlando, FL
  • Posts 103
  • Votes 64
Quote from @Matt Pine:

Thank you all.

I’m normally happy to make improvements and think they’ve become accustom to my willingness to invest.

The whole unit “turn” cost $7,000, and they provided no pictures or notice in advance of any work, and literally no description of the labor on my invoice. Aside from painting and a fixture repair, it could have been leased and put right onto the market. Very frustrating to have a $7,000 fee come through with no notice and include items I didn’t want.

I’m likely going to ask that they at least cover 1/3 of the cost.

I would definitely address that with them.  When we turn a property, we have the move-out inspection report with pictures (available to the owner) and the repair bids are provided to the owner before any work is initiated.  We do not complete any unit turn repairs / work without owner consent first.

Post: mange yourself or use a PM

Chris RichPosted
  • Property Manager
  • Orlando, FL
  • Posts 103
  • Votes 64
Quote from @Glen Wiley:

I see a lot of talk about the importance of hiring a property manager (PM) rather than self managing. For 20 years I have managed my own properties so I wanted to offer some thoughts on the advantages of self managing.

midnight maintenance calls for self managed are mostly a myth

Via a well written lease and open communication with my tenants I let them know that they are responsible for things like plugged toilets, leaks under sinks etc. I tell them up front that while I am happy to address non-structural maintenance, I will charge $120 plus $120 per hour if they need me to come fix anything. I handle the homes primary mechanical systems and structure, they handle the small stuff. This has resulted in me having exactly 1 after hours call in 20 years (the hot water heater burst).

tenant selection is way better as a self manager

No one cares more and no one has more to loose from who is in my properties than I do. I make a purposeful effort to carefully vet applicants and as a result we average close to 1% vacancy over the portfolio. Engage with people as a human being, apply what you know about humans to your vetting, use the great tools available for background checks etc and you will do at least as well as a PM.

personally rewarding

I love the connection to the people in my homes, I get to see how I am helping these families grow. I don't get all chummy, we aren't "friends" but I do get to know enough about them that I derive a lot of personal satisfaction from what I provide for them. One of the reasons that I love rental real estate is that I am doing genuine good for people and getting paid for it. I rent at market competitive rates and I am very firm on payment on time and upkeep of the property by my tenants.

I KNOW my properties

By taking responsibility for my properties, I know what's going on with them. I have a good feel for upcoming major maintenance items, ways to tweak things to make them better in the next turnover etc. This is an important aspect of maximizing cash flow long term.

What does a PM do for me exactly?

Over the years I have thought carefully about whether to hire a PM but it keeps coming back to the key question: What do I get for 10% of my rent? Is it worth that much money? And the answer for me is always "no." I am not saying they don't make things a little easier, I am sure they do, but is it worth $200/month on a $2000 rental? Not to me.

I spend so little time in a typical month on rental management that I just can't see it being worth the money.

I agree with what most of what you said, but it also sounds like you actually do a good job managing yourself-- a lot of people don't.  People are often surprised when I say "You may not necessarily need a PM" given that I do Outside Sales for a PM company.  I agree, many owners can self-manage, but there ARE some people who need a PM because they are not personally equipped to properly manage the property, and I'll give you a recent example I had. 

Back in July, I had an owner call me because he was living abroad, had a tenant move in, and not pay rent.  He was so eager to fill the property that he sent the tenant the lease before collecting any funds, which were "in the mail."  Long story short-- the money never came.  I put him in touch with our eviction attorney and had MANY calls to help walk him through the situation.  I gave him advice on what to do with the next tenant because he did 0 vetting on this tenant... who had an eviction 2 months prior, and multiple on his record.  He was then countersued when he finally filed the eviction, which was finalized in end of October.  When the tenant vacated he stole appliances and there was some damage.  The owner estimated $10,000 in damage.  So what did he do?  He moved the first person he could find into the property because he had 4 mortgage payments out of pocket, repairs to complete, and needed the money. 

Now, how would that have been different with a PM?  First, that tenant would have never qualified with our tenant criteria.  Second, that tenant would have never moved in because we did not receive certified funds.  Third, the eviction would have been finalized in probably half the time --  He waited almost a month to place the 3 day notice, we would have done so on day three.  Fourth, he had no vendors in his network, but I was able to put him in touch with someone to remove the trash and property left by the tenant, an appliance guy I know who fixes and sells appliances so he could replace the stolen ones, and a flooring guy to repair that damage.

In my experience, the owners that hire a PM after self-managing do so because of some incident that occurred, that led them to say "It's not worth the headache, I'd rather pay the ~$140 a month to not have to worry about it."  Most owners, after the situation I described above, who have changed how they operate - OR - hire a PM. However, this owner repeated the exact same mistake.  He is the exact type of person who should hire a manager. 

Post: Why do investors opt to rent instead of flip?

Chris RichPosted
  • Property Manager
  • Orlando, FL
  • Posts 103
  • Votes 64
Quote from @Account Closed:

Hi all,

I have watched countless videos on real estate investing. Some investors are all about buying “doors” to rent. Then there are the flippers and developers. Please help me understand why, besides getting monthly income and putting off taxes, people are so stuck on rentals. I understand producing cash flow to demonstrate I have an income to be able to borrow in the future….so I don’t mind starting with a few rentals to bring that in but then I want to transition to building single family homes. Personally I want to PUT people in homes they will OWN. To me it seems while I pay tax on the sale of a single family home, I get a bigger chunk of money to work after each. I just want to make sure I won’t get sidelined with taxes so high it renders the work/sale null and I get little profit. What is the average profit percentage on building a single family home? Any help is appreciated :) 

There are far too many variables to give an average profit percentage on a SFH. What market are you in? Is the property mortgaged or owned outright? Are you considering the appreciation, principle payments, and tax savings into your profit or are you looking solely at the cash flow. Are you utilizing a cost segregation to reduce your tax liability? Are you a "slumlord" who wants to spend the least amount of money possible or do you spent a little more money to do light rehabs and pay for routine maintenance plans?

You are not wrong you have more cash in hand doing flips, but what are you doing with the cash?  Owning rental properties gives you a way to take advantage of the tax code (there's a reason 90% of millionaires are wealthy because of real estate).  The two guys I know locally that do a lot of flips (or fund flips) both started retaining select properties because of the cash flow and appreciation.  They are still doing flips, but diversified and started holding specific properties based on areas / or converting to cash flowing Padsplits.  

Post: Headache Tenants (Warning: Long Post)

Chris RichPosted
  • Property Manager
  • Orlando, FL
  • Posts 103
  • Votes 64
Quote from @Jims B.:

Hi there,

Just wanting to see what everyone in the Fresno/Clovis, California area is doing regarding headache tenants. I am at my wits end and just need to vent this out to the forum as it has been frustrating and stressful on my end.

Here's a not-so-quick background to this headache. We just recently accepted tenants for a property that we have in Clovis, CA and they are already becoming a problem, and it's not even a month. On our original posting on Zillow, the property was scheduled to be completed with renovations on December 15,  but when these tenants came and saw the property, they wanted to give cash right away as initial deposit because they liked the property. We were skeptical at first that they wanted to give a deposit right away, but we were also in a time crunch as to we needed a tenant secured before the 15th. We disclosed to them early on that there was still work needed to be done and full completion will be on the 15th, primarily interior painting. Since moving in, they have already pinpointed many things needed to be worked on, which we addressed as quick as possible, but I suppose they are not happy with workers still being in the house and some work that still needed done. They started calling us slum land lords and started accusing us of various things such as discrimination and numerous code violations that the property has. 

We did not force them to sign the lease agreement. They seemed like honest people initially. They even pinpointed that the initial lease agreement sent to them stated that utilities were part of the rent, which is not, and we apologized for sending a lease agreement with that error. So, we sent them a new one stating utilities are not included with the rent, and verified with them if they still wanted to proceed with the lease. We even offered to give back all the money they have already given. They stated they still want to proceed, so they signed the updated lease agreement. 

Fast forward to today, there have been numerous instances where they would complain about the smallest details in the house. The painters that we have had in the house finishing the job even told us that they were verbally unbecoming and, per their term, "crazy". There was even a point that our painters were already worried about their safety in the property because the renters were becoming verbally abusive. Our painter even requested a day off because he could not stand them. Poor guy just wanted to finish his job, but he got more than what he asked for. Since then, we have established that our communication will only be via email and text, and text messages are only for urgent matters, such as if the painters are coming in or if any repair personnel is coming in to address some repairs that they voiced out. We want all these situations documented as much as possible. The good thing, I guess, is we have a paper trail of all these conversations and if push comes to shove, we have documentation to prove the headache in this ordeal. 


So finally, the million dollar question, how do we get rid of these tenants? They have not completed the whole month yet have already been like this to us. In one of our text messages with the tenants, he even stated, verbatim, "you two can have this house back. This has (house) looks like a crack house and your trying to rent out like it's this mansion of (a) house...You guys are slum land lords". 

We corresponded via email continuously until last night and stated that we will still return their full security deposit, granting they leave the house in the condition it was in prior to moving (we have photos of the house prior to their move in) and pro-rate the rent based on the number of days they have stayed in the home, which was from the beginning of the month, once we agree on a date for them to move out. The tenants also stated they were willing to break lease and move out within 24hours if the full rent and deposit was returned, which is $5400. Are we approaching this fairly and legally?


If you've read through this post, thank you for taking the time to do so. As a newbie landlord, this is frustrating, but I certainly appreciate any feedback from this community. Thanks guys!


 Hey Jims, that sounds like a tough situation.  At this point I say your best bet is to get them to leave voluntarily, and if it involves giving them money back to do so-- I would.  You don't want them to destroy the place on their way out.  Have them move out and return their funds afterwards.

And going forward, learn from this mistake.  Do the renovations before you try and move anyone in because of this very reason.  Also, be very cautious when tenants are that eager to pay and move in... it's usually for a reason and a red flag.  Out of curiosity, what kind of vetting did you do on the tenants?

Post: Turning Primary Residence Into MTR vs. LTR

Chris RichPosted
  • Property Manager
  • Orlando, FL
  • Posts 103
  • Votes 64
Quote from @Jacob Joye:

Hey everyone, 

My wife and I currently live in a beautiful 3 bed 3 bath 1800 sq feet recently renovated home in Troy, MI and are looking to move out and treat it as our first rental property. We are debating whether to make it a MTR vs LTR as I have seen in research that MTRs have possibility to be more profitable and we live 5 minutes away from a 600 bed level 2 hospital, 15 minutes from a level 3 hospital, and 22 minutes from a 1000 bed level 1 hospital.

Does anyone have general or specific recommendations? Anyone with experience here locally in Michigan with MTRs and the pros/cons versus finding a more traditional 2-3 year long term tenant?


Thanks,


Hey Jacob, I don't deal with MTRs, but I would advise against a 2 or 3 year lease.  If you go LTR, I would stay with a 12 month because it gives you the opportunity to separate from the tenants if they end up not being difficult or a headache for you.  A 12 month lease also gives you the opportunity to increase rent, if you chose. 

Post: Offer accepted on first property. Having serious second thoughts.

Chris RichPosted
  • Property Manager
  • Orlando, FL
  • Posts 103
  • Votes 64
Quote from @Amanda Black:

Hi all. I live in San Diego, CA where everything is expensive. I want to start investing in real estate, so I put an offer in on a 1/1 condo that I could afford (awesome location, good size, needs some aesthetic upgrades). I met with an investor today and he said I am on the slowest, worst road to owning more property quickly. He advised me to go find a multi-family home and explained all the reasons why. I can not afford anything like that in California, so I was looking in Ohio (where I have some family) instead where it is affordable. It looks like I could maybe break even or be a little under each month going this route. I don't want to buy something just to own my own home, I want to buy something to eventually make money and buy more properties. But buying in a state I don't want to be in also seems scary/risky. I would buy in Ohio and rent in San Diego. 

What are you thoughts? I know I didn't ask anything very specific, but I would like to hear your experiences especially if your first property was somewhere far away. 


I don't think "you're on the slowest" road is the right view. There are many strategies, but which one is right for you? What's the end goal? Do you want passive or active? Many successful investors started with one SFH... then two... then three... and then later consolidated into Multi-family.

There is nothing wrong with starting with one rental, getting your feet wet, learning, and then increasing the portfolio.

But like others have stated, find a property that makes sense both financially and that would be desirable for renters. Zillow's Consumer Housing Report (https://www.zillow.com/research/renters-consumer-housing-tre...) talks about renter trends. Only 7% of renters prefer a townhome/ condo compared to 30% wanting SFR, and 51% prefer an apartment. 78% of renter households make less than $100,000. 67% of renters are on a 12-month (or longer) lease.

So if you are looking for a long-term rental property, I would keep those variables in mind when deciding on a property. And if you do buy out of state, make sure you have a good team locally to help.