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All Forum Posts by: Paul Choate

Paul Choate has started 64 posts and replied 346 times.

Post: Insurance - Don't have any & not worried. Convince me I'm crazy.

Paul Choate
Pro Member
Posted
  • Attorney
  • Shawnee, OK
  • Posts 350
  • Votes 230

https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/95/topics/235...

There you go- every step of the way you will have to fight for what you paid for. 

Post: Investing Newbie from Oklahoma City metro area

Paul Choate
Pro Member
Posted
  • Attorney
  • Shawnee, OK
  • Posts 350
  • Votes 230

Welcome! We have a BP Meet Up on the 4th Tuesday at Noon each month in OKC. Please set your keyword alerts up and watch for the announcement soon. Good luck on your journey.

Post: Insurance - Don't have any & not worried. Convince me I'm crazy.

Paul Choate
Pro Member
Posted
  • Attorney
  • Shawnee, OK
  • Posts 350
  • Votes 230

@JD Martin because it's easier to get a loan on a primary residence than a rental! Cash is king in the game I am playing. But to your larger point, yes, I fully intend to pay the house off asap and self insure there as well. 

Edited to add- Also, when I started out, the insurance quote was about $1400- which I was happy to pay. They kept changing it beyond the $150,000 protection I thought I was buying. 

Yes, I have professional Liability insurance. The difference is the cost to benefit ratio. I pay $600-$700 per year to cover a business that generates revenue on the level of my rentals. That is a good deal for which I gladly pay.

Post: Insurance - Don't have any & not worried. Convince me I'm crazy.

Paul Choate
Pro Member
Posted
  • Attorney
  • Shawnee, OK
  • Posts 350
  • Votes 230

@Jason Bott thanks for the info. I appreciate the clarification. 

@Steve Vaughan who is insured for the death of a child in your units that you caused? Is a $100,000 policy going to cover that? I doubt it. My $2700 a year homeowner's policy only pays $1000 in medical to guests. What about the apartment balcony that collapsed out in California? $2 mil? 5 mil? 10 mil? 

There are catastrophic events you can't plan for and insurance will not cover. You are not insured for every conceivable event. You are only insured for what you have personally deemed to be reasonable for your situation. There are always more products to buy.

The point of this thread is there is always risk. I am just finding the best way to deal with it. My argument is the amount of money I would pay out does not justify the amount of protection I need or is provided. I am not against the principal of insurance. I, like Jr T., find the products offered don't match my needs or risks. 

Post: Insurance - Don't have any & not worried. Convince me I'm crazy.

Paul Choate
Pro Member
Posted
  • Attorney
  • Shawnee, OK
  • Posts 350
  • Votes 230

@Wesley Pittman Jr T described what I hope to get out of it. My biggest concern is loss of a unit due to negligence by the tenant. My tenants are low income and extremely judgment proof. The protection I seek is someone to go after for cause. I am not unduly worried about acts of God or bad wiring. I maintain my properties myself -not licensed trade type work- and can control that issue somewhat. (That also adds another layer of liability to myself.) The other stuff is just a conscious decision to assume more risk to grow my portfolio with these cheap cash flowing properties.

I also happen to be a bankruptcy attorney so I do not recommend this strategy to just anyone. I have set things up in ways to limit my liabilities personally so the most I can lose is a few houses.  It sounds like Jr T. has similar business advantages. Let me stress- I am not suggesting a strategy for anyone else to follow. I am simply stating what I do and why I do it. You should always do what you know and feel right about. My wife and I are fully aware there is a possibility that bad things can happen. I am prepared to lose everything I have and start over if need be.

The numbers for me work like this. For a stated value policy of about $20,000 I am looking at $500 per unit (tornado alley!). For 18 units I own and co-own that is $9000 a year. I average a little over $15,000 per unit all in. I will be able to add another unit in a year and a half. That number has been accelerating over the past 8 years. 

As, Jr T said-ish, I can not justify paying someone money to fight me when it comes time for a claim. I also understand I may not collect. If I could find a policy that matched the risk I would be all over it. Most insurance policies have pretty low limits so all of the catastrophic scenarios would not be covered by a standard policy anyway without the umbrella policy. (i.e. $200,000 limit and $2 million claim- who pays that?) Also, @Jason Bott you have to be fully insured on the underlying properties for an umbrella policy to go into effect, right? I would love a stand alone policy which covered me as the the property manager independent of what properties I managed. Does that exist?

One last point- Insurance drives me crazy. I am currently paying $2700 a year for my primary residence which I bought last year as a foreclosure for $42,000. The reason? I have to insure it for replacement cost of $250,000. I don't want the same house if it was damaged. I want the current value and I will go find another good deal. I can't get it and until I pay off this mortgage I am stuck. I just don't understand insurance, I guess. The math doesn't work for me.

Post: Insurance - Don't have any & not worried. Convince me I'm crazy.

Paul Choate
Pro Member
Posted
  • Attorney
  • Shawnee, OK
  • Posts 350
  • Votes 230

@JR T.undefined

One strategy I have considered is requiring renters insurance which would give me protection from my biggest fear- tenants burning down the place. My average all in number is a little over $15,000. I have no intention of rebuilding these things. I just need $5000 to haul everything off and another $15,000 to get another. It is also really cheap for them. Have you looked into that? I have not pursued it yet. Just a thought. 

Post: Insurance - Don't have any & not worried. Convince me I'm crazy.

Paul Choate
Pro Member
Posted
  • Attorney
  • Shawnee, OK
  • Posts 350
  • Votes 230

I'm in the same boat. I would have to have a property burn to the ground every three years to justify the insurance premiums. My brother has an independent insurance agency and I can't get a good deal. I have not carried insurance for most of my investments. I am playing with house money now. 

Post: "No real owner financing in OK"

Paul Choate
Pro Member
Posted
  • Attorney
  • Shawnee, OK
  • Posts 350
  • Votes 230

I currently have two duplexes, a trailer park and a single family home all owner financed for me the buyer. I am financing another property to someone else. I don't usually get these deals through realtors;)!

Post: Wewoka Oklahoma

Paul Choate
Pro Member
Posted
  • Attorney
  • Shawnee, OK
  • Posts 350
  • Votes 230

I live 15 minutes from there. I have a lot I could say about it. If you have not already invested, please talk to me first. If you have, I can give you some tips. Please feel free to ask any questions.

Post: Attorney (?) Investing Out of State

Paul Choate
Pro Member
Posted
  • Attorney
  • Shawnee, OK
  • Posts 350
  • Votes 230

You will need an OK licensed attorney to handle all the Oklahoma legal matters.  If you organize any legal entities based in CA you will need an attorney licensed there.   Pm me if you need a name to start in OK.