Who is more unethical Realtors or used car salesmen?

[Adam Bartomeo]

I know this will ruffle a few feathers but it is a fair question.

I have met and had hundreds of interactions with realtors and I am never surprised at the new lows that some of them can reach. I was also a manager at CarMax (the largest seller of used vehicles in the world) so I understand used car sales people.

Before you get too upset, I agree that there are good realtors and good used sales people out there (I think that they are few and far between). But, based on my experience both are highly questionable in their interactions and practices.

Most recently I found out that a realtor that represented me told the other agent pertinent information about my situation when I expressly told them that they were not to share it with anyone. This caused me a loss of about $10,000.

I am a highly religious man that tries to operate honestly and fairly in all interaction (I am human and do make mistakes). But, I have been lied to, deceived and wronged by almost every realtor and car salesman that I have encountered.

Please share your story with me and see if you can change my jaded view of these so called "professions" or share a story that reinforces my point of view.

[Anthony Gayden]

@Adam Bartomeo

I would say that some of the least ethical people are tenants. I believe 90% of tenants are good, but that 10% are just awful people. The bad thing is that the bad ones can pretend just long enough to cost you thousands. 

They lie, steal, con, and blame others for their problems. They don't seem to realize that not paying the rent is literally the same as stealing money out of your pocket. They destroy your units, doing hundreds or even thousands of dollars in damage. 

I consider myself lucky and have only had a couple of bad tenants since I started, but those two cost me darn near 6 months of profits.

[James Brand]

Hey @Adam Bartomeo,

Not unlike many who have posted in this forum, I agree that the low barrier to entry is the underlying cause for poor performance. Additionally, I believe that many Realtors begin their career without a reserve and thus feel they need to do whatever they can to make ends meet and get deals done, which can foster bad practices. 

I became a Realtor because of the service my fiance' was given from a RE salesperson in Philadelphia, she had just left a terrible apartment and was determined to get her own place so that she did not have to rely on a landlord. Her agent listened to what she wanted, managed her expectations, and sought out properties in areas where he would "feel comfortable having his sister live". 

Watching this process from start to finish I became interested in Real Estate, as it seemed like a very rewarding career, working with people and helping them with one of the largest decisions in their life. I began my career part-time while working on that very Realtor's team. Many shy away from those who are in this industry part-time, but for me it was a fantastic way to begin as I felt no financial pressure. This allowed me to develop systems and practices that were focused on quality not commission. Additionally, the horror stories about the service people received from agents seemed like an exquisite opportunity.

All in all, there will always be bad agents, but just like anything when you choose a professional you need to vet them. Ensure that they have a track record for providing an exceptional service and you will find yourself working with a true professional.

-James

[Jeff Copeland]

@Adam Bartomeo,

I find myself wondering if your interactions with realtors have become a self-fulfilling prophecy? If you abandon the golden rule and treat your realtors like the scum of the Earth you seem to think they are, then I'm not surprised by your bad experiences.

I think the Pareto principle applies in real estate just like it does in any field, with 20% of the realtors causing 80% of the problems, and 20% of the realtors doing 80% of the business - and these statistics have been verified by NAR to some extent. The trick is to find someone in that top 20%.

And yes, the low barriers to entry (for realtors) don't help, nor do the high emotions and large sums of money involved with a home purchase - it can be a perfect storm.

That being said, to put a positive spin on your post...I think it is very important for those of us with real estate licenses to understand your perception, and realize that it is likely to be shared by a large subset of the population. 

How do we, as realtors, demonstrate our professionalism and ethics and alleviate your fears? And note that I'm particularly interested in how we do this early in the process during some of our initial interactions...I think it's easy to show your value after doing a few deals, but it sounds like you never make it that far. 

I'm sincerely interested in hearing your feedback on this in an effort to "raise the bar". Thanks!

[Jonna Weber]

I am sorry for your bad experiences.  I am this post was meant to attact attention, and it is doing it's job!  Yes, it is easy to get a license (too easy, in my opinion).  However, it is not easy to stay in the business and succeed.  Find one by referral and one that focuses on your niche.  Also, a good business relationship needs to be built on mutual respect.  

[Joel Owens]

The KEY is that the brokers/agents who are excellent at what they do PICK WHO they work with and not the other way around.

When you have a certain business model as a broker/agent you screen potential clients for a match.

People who suck away all of your time, do not follow direction, and do not respect the profession do not even get past the first phase of screening. Every client I work with on the commercial real estate side we highly respect each other. There are some people in this world when they get a small amount of success feel people should bow down before them or something.

I have individual high net worth clients my largest being worth about 70 million. They are very nice and normal everyday people. You probably wouldn't even be able to spot them in a crowd. Those with old money do not like people to know they have it. They usually blend in with everyone else. New money or beginning success stories tend to like flashing everything to show off status that they "made it" .

In residential you run into a lot of part time agents and part time investors. I have seen BOTH are after the quick buck lots of times.

I used to live across from an engineer that thought all agents were "blood sucking vampires". He still had to get an agent to sell his house! lol  There will still be people who think brokers and agents are not necessary, overpaid, blah, blah, blah.

It doesn't matter to me. I work with people who want service and my knowledge. So that people understand ETHICS and the LICENSE LAWS to protect the interest of the general public are 2 very different things. You do not need to be a Realtor to be licensed. Realtor is a third party affiliation by NAR just like an MLS. The state commissions care about license laws and protecting the interest of the general public. The Realtor code of ethics comes into play if you are a Realtor and join your local chapter etc. and agree to be sanctioned if a complaint is filed and you are found at fault after a hearing.

Just because someone is not a Realtor does not mean they do not have ethics or vice versa. It is just a public propaganda to get people to feel comfortable working with agents. When a broker/ agent and a potential client first meet they should both lay out expectations and decide if they want to work together or not. Sadly I hear this doesn't happen 90% of the time. I hear both pointing fingers and saying one didn't tell the other so how were they supposed to know. Timely communication is critical in this business and most fail at it. Sending a "no update to report" is better than not sending anything until there is news because the client will feel like you are keeping them out of the loop or not being professional.

There might be a few states who require a Realtor designation as part of licensing but I do not know of any. You can simply pay ongoing licensing dues to your state and fill ongoing education requirements as a broker and be fine with compliance.     

[David Kosiorek]

Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:

@Adam Bartomeo Well I am a Realtor.  My guess is that the percentage of the unethical, the dumb, and the good is probably the same proportion as it is in other professions.  If 99.9% of the ones you are having contact with that way are that bad, maybe it is time to adjust how you pick a Realtor?  I always suggest that people find Realtors by referral as opposed to some other method. If someone has done right by one or two of your friends or family, there is a good chance they will do right by you.

In my experience the unethical Realtors are from small brokerages that tend to service a lot of REO's. I dont know why that is, it is just something that seems to be the case in my market place.

I'd agree with this statement in our market. I've seen/had REO listing agents (undisclosed) provide me a list of upcoming REO's then tell me the price it will take before hitting the market to take it off the market with a small "fee" added for his/her part. Shady way to do business, I just got uncomfortable with the whole deal and didn't do it but I'm sure MANY people do it. All it takes is knowing people to make things happen.

[Jeff Copeland]

@Joel Owens - You bring up a great point about the distinction between a REALTOR© and a licensed real estate agent, and I think we, as a profession, sometimes do a poor job educating the public about the distinction. 

Those of us who choose (or are required by our brokerages) to affiliate with the national, state, and local associations of REALTORS© are bound by a code of ethics and standards of practice, and agree to be held accountable by our peers when we fail to abide by these.

Obviously, that does not mean agents who are not REALTORS© are dishonest or unethical (there are plenty of reasons, cost being one of them, not to pay for the REALTOR© designation) - but when having a discussion about ethics and standards of practice, I think it is important to point out that these do exist and are adhered to by thousands of professionals across the country.

Thanks for bringing that up!

[Jay Hinrichs]

@Adam Bartomeo as Joel states top agents ( like used to be) we pick our clients its not the other way around.. If I get any kind of bad vide or my client will not follow my direct recommendations they are no longer my client.. I would also tell them they are better off with some wet behind the ear agent who knows no better and will listen to your unreasonable expectations of what a realtor should do

Remember this is an investing site.. Most Realtors are not investment centric they are more in tuned with selling folks their personal resi. So its a different mentality and mind set.  Really great investment property realtors will give most newer investors about 3 seconds of their time and if they figure they are jsut starting or do not have the ability to really pull the trigger they blow them off just like I would... The top brokers who deal in these types of properties have their BUYERS LIST of proven buyers and clients who can buy 10 house's in a month with no issues etc..  I deal with these types every day when I am funding my deals in 12 states.. my guys all use basically the same brokers ..

who is worse in my mind  its not even close its the no nothing wanna bee learn Wholesaler is the worse in the industry in my mind ... tie up property with no clue how to sell it...screw around with sellers and buyers with all their  ( oh this is subject to my partners approval etc those are the bane of the industry). 

your comments on this thread are taken by me for what they are worth a not to experienced re investor who thinks agents should be like employees and at your beck and call..   And frankly I think agents hurt themselves by not sharing more information between buyer and seller and getting deals done... not trying to act like their clients attorney. 

[Dottie Bee]

It has been my personal experience that the car sales industry has more unethical practices happening than the Real Estate industry- but it's a fair comparison.

To answer your question as to why there are so many bad/unethical Real Estate agents (and car salesman): it's because it is a complicated, litigious industry with a very low bar of entry and high necessity to close transactions.  That is a bad combination in any industry.

The low bar of entry means that a large number of agents simply don't know what they are doing- but have to close transactions in order to eat.  I'm a (new) Real Estate agent.  I know that I (and a lot of the other agents I have talked to) strongly desire to be ethical and competent.  But it takes time, energy and money to achieve that outcome.  Meantime, there are bills to pay.  Also, the amount information out there for *generating* clients farrrr outweighs the information/training on what to do to protect those clients best interests. 

The easiest way to cut through the bad agents and find someone competent is to interview a few *brokers* that manage a team of agents.  From those that you interview, find someone that you appears to be knowledgeable and ethical.  Then explain to them your particular needs and to refer the agent on their team that is most competent in the niche you are interested in.  You will be surprised how much better that Realtor is than the previous ones you have worked with.

[Alex Craig]

Anyone in sales has the potential to be unethical.  Trust, but verify and re-verify.  In real estate, there is a lot of online information to help in the due diligence process.  I deal with a lot of Realtors and I get amazed just how many bad ones there actually are.  Then again, the process to become a Realtor is not that difficult, thus why you have some many who do not know so much.

[Lee S.]

Originally posted by @Adam Bartomeo:

@Lee S.I respect your opinion and your few interactions but my experience with hundreds of realtors is much worse. You are welcome to view my BP page to get a better understanding of my past but my profession is real estate investor. I am highly factual and that is why I believe in god but thank you for attacking my beleifs. I have done the research but this is not about me. It is about a profession that is highly unscrupulous.

Please feel free to read other post on BP that address the same topic as I am not alone.

 Hundreds of Realtors?   This goes along with something I always joke about which is "I don't take marital advice from divorced people".  It's like the person who's been married 5 times but claims it's always the spouse who had the issue, not them or their inability to spot an idiot before they marry them, over and over again.

If you see some of my former posts regarding becoming an agent, I've joked many times how low the bar is to become an agent, but "low IQ" and "unethical" are not  mutually exclusive, you can be either, both or neither.  I'm a licensed Doctor in the State of California so I have something to compare it to.

As far as your beliefs, go back and read your original post and tell me how you're not claiming to have "Moral Superiority" because you are "a highly religious person".  Don't throw that garbage out in public and expect other's to listen to it and then cry "victim" (A Christian Favorite) when it's thrown back at you.  I don't start my posts off with "I'm an Atheist, so my opinion takes precedence over yours (and I'm not gullible)."

I decided to get my License because I respect other peoples time.  When I decided to get into investing earlier this year I was working with a friend who was also my Realtor for my last couple of personal residence purchases.  I knew immediately I would have to get my license because I RESPECT OTHER PEOPLE AND THEIR TIME.  I could see that what I was asking of her was unreasonable and being new to the game I felt that she would not be compensated for it soon enough.  I'm still taking her to lunch occasionally just to say thank you and I only had her helping me for a couple of days!

I guess my experience as a doctor has helped me understand how peoples time is important.  I can't tell you how many people ask me to diagnose them on the spot in the grocery store (if they haven't already diagnosed themselves via webMD lol).

I'm sure everyone has heard the saying "Better to be thought an idiot then to open one's mouth and remove all doubt", well, when you make statements like you have in this post regarding 99.9% of Realtors being unethical you have removed all doubt.

I don't take offense to you insulting a Realtor specifically, I'm annoyed by the ignorance it takes to make a blanket statement as you have done, it sets off alarm bells in my logical mind.

Haven't you heard that 100% of all real estate investors are Scum Bags?  Oops, sucks to be you!

You can now return to your previously unintelligent scheduled programming.

I kid of course :)

[Douglas Procunier]

Throwing my hat in the ring here as one of the 0.01% of ethical realtors! For me honesty is always the best policy. Too many headaches arise when people are unethical.  

I suppose there can be some potential financial benefits to acting unethically and that can buy you a really nice pillow, but the best thing for a good night's rest is a clear conscience.

@Adam Bartomeo: I hope your future interactions with realtors are more positive!

[Adam Bartomeo]

@Douglas ProcunierPlease be that person.

[Adam Bartomeo]

@Lee S. or should I call you Doctor? Again, thank you for attacking my beliefs and now me personally. Peoples true personalities come out when they get emotional.

[Adam Bartomeo]

@Jay HinrichsI agree with some of what you said but believe that you let your emotions get the better of you.

You only tried to turn the tables instead of addressing the issue. There have been many great examples in this thread about good things realtors have done. And, they are inspiring to hear. There have also been a lot of individuals that believe there aren't any good realtors. Do you have any examples?

[Adam Bartomeo]

@David DachteraI have no clue why your talking about. I am solid in my faith.

[Adam Bartomeo]

@Joey DwyerGreat story and inspiring. That's what I want to hear!

[Adam Bartomeo]

@Ramsey KheshenMy intent was not to lane all car salesmen. If you haven't heard of Carmax then you will in the near future. In comparison to the used car sale market Carmax is highly ethical. They don't normally higher employees that have any cars selling experience. They look for good people who can be trained.

This is why I used used car saws as an example. Is there anyone out there like them as a brokerage?

[Ariel Oclarino]

you'll come to find out that your claims does not limit to just re agents.  its hard but with time and exposure you'll or we all get savvier to weed them out.  even then it is not a guarantee. 

[Lee S.]

Originally posted by @Adam Bartomeo:

@Lee S. or should I call you Doctor? Again, thank you for attacking my beliefs and now me personally. Peoples true personalities come out when they get emotional.

 There's that victim card again while you completely ignore the fact that you attacked everyone that is an Agent, Broker, Realtor on this site beginning with the thread title.  Keep talking, that hole is just getting deeper.  I think the issue here is pretty obvious to everyone and judging by the amount of votes and messages my two previous posts have received I have actual data, not something I pulled out of my backside because it makes me feel better about myself.  Step back and do some soul searching, there is a life lesson for you in this thread and also an opportunity to learn  not to say things that make you look ignorant at best.

I'm not attacking you personally because I don't know you.  I am however pointing out the ignorance of the words coming out of your mouth which is all I have to form an opinion.

My work is done here, my head is starting to hurt.  

[Renea Steward]

@Adam Bartomeo I'm not sure what you were expecting in this forum. I will say that a few realtor spoke with positive comments. 

I want to thank you presenting this post. It may not be what you intended, but it has some good.

As for religion we are asked to refrain from using it on Bigger Pockets. Which gives me a pause for thought. You may be drawing in some of what happening by not following rules. We may not agree with the rules at times, but that doesn't dismiss them.

I believe there are many of us who have a personal relationship with God; nevertheless that isn't use to support our statements on Bigger Pockets.

There have been a few unnerving comments in this thread, but the minority were positive and informative. There are many good realtors and a few great ones. Consider using your relationship with God to ask for guidance to lead to a great one for you.

                           Enjoy as you prosper.....

[Andrew Syrios]

My experience with Realtors is rarely that of them being unethical. The word I would use would be incompetent (not all of them of course). So used car salesmen FTW (if you call that a win I guess). 

[Aarin Esler]

It is really hard to compare a used car sales-person to RE agent.  Sure, they are both sales positions but a used car salesmen will put someone in beater and happily sign the customer up on financing that exceeds 20%.  All while making a few hundred dollars for a days work.

The bottom line is if you hire someone that is mediocre to help you buy anything that as expensive as a home, then most of the blame lies in your hands.  

[Account Closed]

I'm a Realtor and Investor. Let me tell you the other side of the coin, to all the new Realtors, when they head the word investor, is that you are going to visit 50 homes, and this is going to take you at least one week or more of all your afternoons, all this homes are worth 60K located probably 2 hours drive. Of course, it has to be in your brand new-car, and you have to pay the gas and probably get this investor to lunch, after this you may have to write 30 offers,  all way below asking price, and if you are lucky enough, you put one under contract, then you have to go with your buyer to inspections and very likely you have to open the door to 2 or 3 contractors so they can start doing an estimate. All this for $1,800 before the Broker's cut, probably you end with $450.00 after taxes.  Broker's advice? don't put any investors in your car. 

What you need to do is establish a good relationship with your Realtor, don't go with this one and next day with another, loyalty will pay off. I'm proud to have good investors as clients.

[Kim Knox]

I think it is fair to reveal that sometimes disloyal or unscrupulous Clients make it difficult for a Broker to have faith in humankind.  However, we must dust ourselves off and get back to work.  It is not healthy or smart for us to wallow in our disappointments.             

I have seen Brokers absolutely devastated by disloyal Clients.  I have seen their generosity, their time, and their wide-eyed optimism being stolen from them.  I have even seen them go bankrupt simply because they can't recognize when a supposed Client is all talk and no action.        

I choose my Clients, and I work for the best and the brightest.  Not only are they the best and brightest, they are nice too!  If I get the feeling they want to screw people over, I quickly excuse myself from the equation. I love the real estate business, in part, because I feel great about how I treat people. Not just my Clients, but customers as well.      

I am really proud to be a Real Estate Broker.  Your assertion that 99%+ of Agents are unethical is unfounded and a bit dramatic.  All I can do is hope that when you have a positive experience, you decide to  broadcast that to the world.