It's 2018... someone tell my why these are still thing

It's 2018... someone tell my why these are still thing

Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2014 · 232 posts · 165 votes

Can someone please explain to me how, in 2018, we haven't come up with a better process for:

1. The real estate title system

Between title searches and title insurance - the real estate title system is a $15 BILLION complete scam. How can we still not say who actually owns a property? When I buy or sell a car, there's a title transfer document and a bill of sale. End of story - no lawyers or title companies involved. I'm not saying buying real estate should be as simple as buying toothpaste, and I get the idea of title clouds, but there HAS to be a better system than the one we have in place. Is anyone getting close to improving this? For all of the hype around blockchain helping to fix this system, I haven't actually seen a functional project launched yet. Are places like Ubitquity making an impact?

2. Notaries

How are we still saying that "yea this document is super legit because this person who paid a $60 fee has a fancy stamp?" Shockingly, this is not the most secure system, and there are still cases of rampant fraud (like this one from a few years ago,  or this one). The notary system is so antiqued it's preposterous. I'll double down and say that the concept of a physical signature is just as ridiculous. 

3. The rest of my rant can be bucketed into just general technology enhancements, especially in the commercial lending industry. In my previous life, I was a consultant with a big accounting firm, and our projects were mostly around bringing these lenders from the stone age to at least 2010 with their tech. And that's not even the consumer facing stuff, it was the back end, loan accounting and reporting systems that were so mickey mouse it was terrifying. Bigger banks have the pockets to justify new system implementations, but many smaller banks and credit unions are running on decades old technology. My latest commercial loan was through a bank that can't even link an auto pay to my loan! Boston Sewer and Water doesn't accept auto pay either - when I asked, they said they are "working on implementing later this spring." I physically write checks every month. In 2018. 

So, that was a lot of whining without offering much in terms of solutions... sorry about that. 

Consumers are expecting more and more in terms of technology offerings from their lenders, brokers, property managers, the courts and other partners, and the real estate industry is letting us all down. These inefficiencies are costing us time, money, and creating massive barriers to entry for new investors and home owners. I fully realize there are some progressive companies out there, and CRE tech is starting to gain steam, but we are still 100 years behind other industries and it's up to us to drive institutional change and improvement.

Do you have anything to add to this list or anything I'm missing in my assessment? 

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Tom GimerBusiness Member
DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
8y

@James E. This movement needs a #hashtag.  Something whiny but cute.

Once we have that let's put the federal government in charge of the whole system so it is efficient and fund it with Bitcoin so it is stable..

Gimer Law516 Reviews
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  • Corby GoadeBusiness Member
    Investor · Boise, ID · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y

    I don't know about changes in closing and title, but the notary system is different in every state. I am in Idaho and the only time I've paid to have anything notarized was when I was in Louisiana and closing on a property in Idaho, had to pay a notary a few hundred bucks to notarize the closing docs. In Idaho, every bank has at least one notary and they provide the service for free. Whether the process is antiquated is a different conversation.

  • Wilmington, NC · Member since 2017 · 31 posts · 23 votes
    8y
    Hopefully in the near future blockchain technology will disrupt the title industry by not needing a 3rd party to search/verify titles. Records can’t be manipulated and all past transactions would be transparent.
  • China, ME · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y

    @James E.  Title transfers are normally pretty straightforward - but not always.

    We closed on a home for a buyer a few weeks ago that went under contract in October 2017.  It turned out that the seller didn't have clear title.

    In fact, our attorney had to complete 12 probates to get clear title.  

    As for notaries (and I am a MA Commissioned Notary Public), it's not perfect.  Like any other endeavor in life, there are bad apples.

    However, I'm a sworn officer of the Court.  Misbehavior on my part carries some stiff penalties.  When I complete an affidavit (sworn statement), lying on the part of the affiant constitutes perjury.

    The other two most common notarial acts in MA are: 

    1. Signature Witness, which is exactly what it sounds like - a signatory provides a current, valid state or federally issued ID and signs the document in my presence.

    2. Acknowledgement, meaning someone who is properly identified as above acknowledges that they are signing the document of their own free will.

    I no longer have much use for my notary office, but I can tell you that I take those obligations very seriously.

  • Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2014 · 232 posts · 165 votes
    8y

    @Corby Goade yea - I usually get stuff notarized at a bank for free, my point was more that it costs around $60 to get your notary license (at least in Mass). 

  • Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2014 · 232 posts · 165 votes
    8y

    @Charlie MacPherson here's a perfect example... your buyer now has clear title correct? Why is that not documented in some official, irritable capacity as of your closing date, and why is there no way transparently documenting any claims / liens against that title going forward, where we can establish ownership without involving attorneys and insurance companies?

    And totally understand your point on the notary - I'm coming at this from more of a systemic stance. Why do we need a notary - or even another human - to perform the two notarial acts you mentioned? 

  • Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2014 · 232 posts · 165 votes
    8y

    @Giora Sela exactly

  • Tom GimerBusiness Member
    DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y

    @James E. This movement needs a #hashtag.  Something whiny but cute.

    Once we have that let's put the federal government in charge of the whole system so it is efficient and fund it with Bitcoin so it is stable..

    Gimer Law516 Reviews
  • Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2014 · 232 posts · 165 votes
    8y

    @Tom Gimer I'm on it... or we could be really with the times and crowdsource it?

    Even better, let's also put the states in charge  of some stuff,  so that there's plenty of contradiction and we never get any consistency or efficiency. 

    Bitcoin would work well but I've also heard good things about Stanley Nickels and Schrute Bucks

  • Real Estate Agent · Houma, LA · Member since 2016 · 240 posts · 115 votes
    8y

    @Corby Goade, That's a steep price for a notary. Most notary work I have gotten done that was non-real estate related cost about $25. Plus, in addition to banks, most lawyers' offices have a notary on staff. 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y

    this is a great conversation..

    title and escrow though is quite regionalized..

    and your in an area of the country that is still in the 17th century.. a lot of areas are in this century and decade  let me describe a few.

    1. Oregon were I do some business..  title plants have been moved to Phillipines.. if you asked the average person or real estate agent or lender what a title abstractor is .. they would just look at you funny never heard of one of those.. someone has to physically go to the court house.. Heck have not done that in 30 years.

    2. In CA were I did some work.. the title plants were in the title companies main office they mirrored the court house.. but then about mid 80s they digitized it.. I still remember going into the title plant and having the title examiner do a quick title check for me and it was in the big book.. just like at a court house that has not digitized.  I like the big book frankly I like looking at the hand writing of those from the 1800s its cool.

    3. Many title and escrow companies now do every thing but the Deed or mortgage and note through docusign or hello sign.. My SC closing agent does that.. my closing agent in Birmingham does that.

    4. in recording deeds.. some states now have electronic recordings.. IE I don't have to fed ex the original deed back they can record with a scan.. I still have to notarize it of course.. but I just scan it back and they record digitially that's in Birmingham and maybe other areas.. but B ham that's how we have been doing it for a few years..

    5. Notary this is many times a title company requirement.. Like some title companies on mail away closings want to send a mobile notary.. I pitch a fit on those because those are expensive.. So I make them send them to one of my title companies in their family here in Oregon and run in for a courtesy singing at no cost.. and I just pop in someone will grab the docs and sign me off.

    Lastly we do have what I know of the world by far the simplest closing procedures try to do closings in other countries.. Notaries in those countries are lawyers.. or like lawyers and its a big production.. you just don't walk in and show ID.. they want to read your operating agreement the contracts etc etc this happened to me the first time I tried to notarize a US sale in Canada .. Not going to happen without a bunch of effort.. and the folks from out of country many times have to go to the US consulate to get a notary for US documents..

    The reason its not like auto titles is so much more affects real estate title than auto.. auto is ownership and lien..  Real estate there are literally a hundred things that can affect title.

    great thread.. love it.

  • Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2014 · 232 posts · 165 votes
    8y

    @Jay Hinrichs wow - what a response! Thank you. Yes, like most things real estate related the state / region you live in plays a big role in how efficiently you can navigate the sale process and I think your specific examples really hammer that home. I think systemically - even in more progressive states in terms of technology adoption - there's significant room for improvement and increased transparency. 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y

    believe me when I first came to the east coast to do business  ( attorney abstractor states) it was a business/culture shock.. what do you mean I cant get a title commitment in 24 hours.. LOL  what do you mean it takes 5 to 10 days to do a closing... why cant I do it in 48 hours or less..

    what do you mean I need and appointment and have to go to a closing table and have my money there on the spot..

    what do you mean the seller wants a check right on the spot before the deeds are recorded.

    these are all regional things..

    on the west coast we simply do not do it that.. way..  and in my mind title co take a huge risk giving checks out a the closing tables before deeds are recorded.. its why they have to issue gap insurance IE what happens if something goes onto title between that time and the time they actually record.. you think scammers are on the internet.. scammers have been scamming title companies for years.. running in and recording things before they record their sales docs and money is already transferred.

    the general public simply does not see a lot of the back end and how the title companies have to protect themselves.. its dog eat dog out there.. I won't get into it because I don't want to give scammers any ideas.. but I have just as a buyer / broker seen some wild stuff in my 40 years and a fair amount of notary fraud as well..

  • Investor · Grand Junction, CO · Member since 2017 · 207 posts · 201 votes
    8y

    I would add that your average realtor in an average transaction is overpaid as well.  Back in the days before the internet, sure, someone couldn't do most of the leg work of looking for a home.  Now days, most buyers do all of the searching online and are just using the realtor to get in and look at the one they want.  

  • Tom GimerBusiness Member
    DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @James E.:

    @Tom Gimer I'm on it... or we could be really with the times and crowdsource it?

    Even better, let's also put the states in charge  of some stuff,  so that there's plenty of contradiction and we never get any consistency or efficiency. 

    Bitcoin would work well but I've also heard good things about Stanley Nickels and Schrute Bucks

    Yep, may need to set up a Gofundme so Ubitquity can afford to pay someone to write new blog posts and keep that ship afloat.

    Gimer Law516 Reviews
  • Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2014 · 232 posts · 165 votes
    8y

    @Eric C. it's interesting you say that about agents as I've heard the same thing from a lot of friends - especially those who are getting ready to buy or sell their first house. I don't have a big problem with agent pricing because that's still a factor of supply and demand. If you can find an agent to sell your house for 1% or a flat fee - then great. No one is forcing you to pay a 4-5% commission, it's just want the market forces have decided the value is. You could argue collusion and that all agents are charging about the same price, but you're still free to do a FSBO or an MLS entry only listing. I think the general public also doesn't realize how much agents have to do to actually sell a home and how much time is involved. I have my agent's license and rarely do anything with it besides my own deals, because unless you're selling / buying a reasonably high priced property, the payoff isn't worth the time and headache for me

    My issue with the title system is that it's a regulatory burden that has seen minimal efficiency improvements (especially in my location) over hundreds of years. And at the root of it is the conflict of interest in the industry, where no one really has an incentive to fix the problem. The regulators, lawyers, and title insurance companies that have clout are raking in the big bucks from Mr. Home Buyer who has no idea what all of these charges on their HUD / CD actually mean.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y

    YOU would really love working in IL  its totally attorney driven.  but those that work it are used to it and its how they do things.. those of us that are from areas we do and can do a lot of this ourselves like prep deeds and such.. well like I said its just different..

  • Tom GimerBusiness Member
    DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @James E.:

    @Eric C. it's interesting you say that about agents as I've heard the same thing from a lot of friends - especially those who are getting ready to buy or sell their first house. I don't have a big problem with agent pricing because that's still a factor of supply and demand. If you can find an agent to sell your house for 1% or a flat fee - then great. No one is forcing you to pay a 4-5% commission, it's just want the market forces have decided the value is. You could argue collusion and that all agents are charging about the same price, but you're still free to do a FSBO or an MLS entry only listing. I think the general public also doesn't realize how much agents have to do to actually sell a home and how much time is involved. I have my agent's license and rarely do anything with it besides my own deals, because unless you're selling / buying a reasonably high priced property, the payoff isn't worth the time and headache for me

    My issue with the title system is that it's a regulatory burden that has seen minimal efficiency improvements (especially in my location) over hundreds of years. And at the root of it is the conflict of interest in the industry, where no one really has an incentive to fix the problem. The regulators, lawyers, and title insurance companies that have clout are raking in the big bucks from Mr. Home Buyer who has no idea what all of these charges on their HUD / CD actually mean.

    Title insurance and lawyers provide a safety net. You are free to jump without the net.

    Gimer Law516 Reviews
  • Investor · Grand Junction, CO · Member since 2017 · 207 posts · 201 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
    Originally posted by @James E.:

    @Eric C. it's interesting you say that about agents as I've heard the same thing from a lot of friends - especially those who are getting ready to buy or sell their first house. I don't have a big problem with agent pricing because that's still a factor of supply and demand. If you can find an agent to sell your house for 1% or a flat fee - then great. No one is forcing you to pay a 4-5% commission, it's just want the market forces have decided the value is. You could argue collusion and that all agents are charging about the same price, but you're still free to do a FSBO or an MLS entry only listing. I think the general public also doesn't realize how much agents have to do to actually sell a home and how much time is involved. I have my agent's license and rarely do anything with it besides my own deals, because unless you're selling / buying a reasonably high priced property, the payoff isn't worth the time and headache for me

    My issue with the title system is that it's a regulatory burden that has seen minimal efficiency improvements (especially in my location) over hundreds of years. And at the root of it is the conflict of interest in the industry, where no one really has an incentive to fix the problem. The regulators, lawyers, and title insurance companies that have clout are raking in the big bucks from Mr. Home Buyer who has no idea what all of these charges on their HUD / CD actually mean.

    Title insurance and lawyers provide a safety net. You are free to jump without the net.

     I have made that jump without the net.  I am just surprised the industry hasn't changed.

  • Tom GimerBusiness Member
    DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Eric C.:
    Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
    Originally posted by @James E.:

    @Eric C. it's interesting you say that about agents as I've heard the same thing from a lot of friends - especially those who are getting ready to buy or sell their first house. I don't have a big problem with agent pricing because that's still a factor of supply and demand. If you can find an agent to sell your house for 1% or a flat fee - then great. No one is forcing you to pay a 4-5% commission, it's just want the market forces have decided the value is. You could argue collusion and that all agents are charging about the same price, but you're still free to do a FSBO or an MLS entry only listing. I think the general public also doesn't realize how much agents have to do to actually sell a home and how much time is involved. I have my agent's license and rarely do anything with it besides my own deals, because unless you're selling / buying a reasonably high priced property, the payoff isn't worth the time and headache for me

    My issue with the title system is that it's a regulatory burden that has seen minimal efficiency improvements (especially in my location) over hundreds of years. And at the root of it is the conflict of interest in the industry, where no one really has an incentive to fix the problem. The regulators, lawyers, and title insurance companies that have clout are raking in the big bucks from Mr. Home Buyer who has no idea what all of these charges on their HUD / CD actually mean.

    Title insurance and lawyers provide a safety net. You are free to jump without the net.

     I have made that jump without the net.  I am just surprised the industry hasn't changed.

    Re changing the industry...

    Tell us how blockchain technology will improve the industry as opposed to just taking the money typically made on a transaction out of A's pocket and putting it in B's pocket. 

    I heard the other day that the average Uber driver earns less than minimum wage. The disruption of the taxicab industry is working out great.

    Gimer Law516 Reviews
  • Southwest, OH · Member since 2018 · 34 posts · 9 votes
    8y

    Title companies are optional, are they not?

    I have a good relationship with mine, and pay like $100. Before I had a good relationship and bought a house, it was like $300.

    is an occasional $100 or $300 a big enough market to disrupt?

    Plus, by the time you give kickbacks to banks and stuff for your new system to convince them to switch, it'll cost you the same amount!

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    8y

    I was nodding along with your rant about title insurance (don't forget another bogus one - lender's insurance) until you diluted it with notary's and municipality payments.  Gotta stay strong with the main message @James E.!

    Otherwise we get bogged down in $25 or $60 notary fees (like @Clint Galliano ) vs the $1700 title insurance and  the even worse, several hundred dollar to $1200 lender's insurance.  $2900 in fees are being overshadowed by saving $35. Squirrel!

    I've self-closed 4 buys and 2 private money  loans for this exact reason.  I still order deep O&E title searches from $85-$150, but avoid title insurance, escrow/closing fees and lender's insurance. A conservative savings of at least $3k each, but you have to know how to read the title report and do prorations properly.    Without death, divorce, partnerships, etc in the title history I have been fine.  If those things exist, title insurance will be worth it. Don't put a $200k investment at risk to save $1700.

    I have been able to self-close because we were at the bank we drew the cashier's checks from when we did it. The deed, the financing docs, notary stamp, boom. My sellers were all 70 and up.  No way they are relying on digital signatures or any of that.  The notary stamp and physical check put the umph on the transaction.  

    This may evolve as Xer's like me and boomers become more comfortable with seamless, paperless, signatureless transactions, but Millenials and I-gens don't yet have property to sell for the most part.  The rest of us that have something to sell did not grow up with a device in our hand. We are (sometimes slowly) evolving.  Most of my tired landlords don't even have computers, but their wives might. They carry little notebooks in their shirtpockets and bring yellow pads to meetings. Most don't even text. 

    @Tom Gimer - it's almost impossible to go without a net out there.  No title co would escrow my private loan payoffs without also writing a title insurance policy.  Thankfully the loans being paid off were with local banks and we sat in the branch and the branch manager assured my lenders the bank would re-convey, bumping them up to first position.   The title co's told me no way, we will not escrow or help a  long-time customer for $700 without also writing the $1700 insurance policy.  Bogus.  

    Good discussion! Keep 'em coming!

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y

    @Steve Vaughan  as you know I have done plenty of my own deals without the benefit of title and escrow.  foreclosure rescue if your going to be profitable demands it.

    BUT we are west coast based.. in many states ONLY attorneys are allowed to prep certain real estate docs..

    ergo why I mentioned its regional..

    One issue we have these days as title and escrow is getting tighter.. I had a guy on BP e mail me on PM..  he apparently did a closing on his own with some sort of trust  Maybe he drank the land trust cool aid.. now he is going to sell it and no one will insure it because they did not like the way he came into title.

    I said well just get the old seller to resign.. he said not possible.. I said well your fubared then.. no lender is going to close without lenders policy..

    so we do have to be careful and know the full extent of what we are doing.. WE had in my day a lot of juice with our title company and trusted us..  one off person they never heard of they are NOT going to stick their neck out.. not worth it.

  • Tom GimerBusiness Member
    DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y

    @Steve Vaughan You are the exception. You actually understand the concept of title insurances and the issues they respond to, as well as when it may be worth it to forego that expense on the owners side. The average purchaser doesn't have a clue, understandably. By way of example, many who raise the issue say things to us like "you are doing a title/lien search... and you say things look good, so why would I need to buy title insurance?" That's when I pull of the form the buyer must sign if they decline owners coverage. 

    Lenders are just protecting their interests. Hard to complain that a lender would pass that expense along to the person they are loaning hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars.

    Gimer Law516 Reviews
  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:

    @Steve Vaughan You are the exception. You actually understand the concept of title insurances and the issues they respond to, as well as when it may be worth it to forego that expense on the owners side. The average purchaser doesn't have a clue, understandably. By way of example, many who raise the issue say things to us like "you are doing a title/lien search... and you say things look good, so why would I need to buy title insurance?" That's when I pull of the form the buyer must sign if they decline owners coverage. 

    Lenders are just protecting their interests. Hard to complain that a lender would pass that expense along to the person they are loaning hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars.

     Thanks, Tom.  Definitely not a DIY project for 99% of folks.  Most don't even get an abstract or O&E report.

    My issue with lender's protections is this - if lender's insurance protects the bank's interest, why does the consumer pay? If an appraisal protects the banks' interest, why does the consumer pay? If PMI is also only to protect the bank, why do we pay that as well? Skyscrapers of marble have been borne on the backs of avg Joe consumers. The banks should share these costs. The protections are for them, not us.

    My last beef is with who pays the owner's title insurance (here in the west at least).  This is insurance protecting the buyer going forward.  Why is it customary for the seller pay for it?  I know it's because the seller is receiving money at the sale, but still not equitable. It should be split, IMO and I usually negotiate for that as a seller.   End rant ;)

  • China, ME · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y

    @James E. Now that the 12 probates are done, there is a clear title, documented at the Plymouth County Registry of Deeds.  

    I think you meant "irrefutable".  This is getting into the legal weeds, but I suppose with this kind of deed (Quitclaim), it's possible for another party who has an interest (or at least claims and interest) to appear and challenge the legitimacy of the deed.

    Quitclaim deeds, which are used almost exclusively in MA simply transfer the seller's interest in the property to the buyer.  No representations are made, nor protection given regarding prior claims, which are presumably unknown.

    There are two solutions to this.

    1. Buy OWNER'S title insurance.  It's pretty cheap and worthwhile insurance to protect you against this kind of thing.  If something happened like this, the title policy would pay off.  

    Lenders will always require a title policy to protect their interest in the property.  They won't make you buy an owner's policy, but you're nuts if you don't.

    2. Go to Land Court (at least here in MA).  A property that has gone through MA Land Court becomes "registered" land.  All prior claims are extinguished in perpetuity.

    Could it be simpler?  Sure.

    But then again, this system has worked here in MA since the Pilgrims landed here in Plymouth in 1620.  398 years of experience suggests not fixing what isn't broken.

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