Where Philly Real Estate is Going

Where Philly Real Estate is Going

Realtor · Member since 2020 · 82 posts · 83 votes

Yesterday during the conversation with my investor, I was asked where I think the real estate market in Philly is going in this special time where people are afraid that the pandemic is going to kill their investment. 

This concern is legit, especially data and statistics of the economy and unemployment rate are not that great. However, my hypothesis is that COVID 19 WON'T END PHILLY'S REAL ESTATE BOOM. Our economy is still well-structured if anyone wants to compare this time to the Great Recession 2008. The acute pain may be still there but it will be temporary. I have three reasons going from big picture of the whole economy to smaller pieces of real estate investment:

1. The ECONOMY IS RECOVERING: I myself also invest in stocks and watch the movement every day. In a sense, stock market is like a thermometer of the economy. So, to say that the economy is recovering, I'm going to take the stats of the stock market to show you. If you look at the picture below, it was deep down in March and half part of April, which is also the time I sold one house in a good week (that's very rare to me). However, NASDAQ, SP500 and Down Jones are all gradually increasing their points. It's now almost the end of July and the stock market has been much better. You can see that NASDAQ even increased their points higher than the time before Covid in America boomed (Feb). I'm confident that the stock market is going to fluctuate like it has always been, but the overall trend is going up. The real estate market of course is different from the stock market but they are similar in the sense that they both highly depend on economy. If we can measure the health of the economy by stats in stocks, we can also rely on the stock market performance for predicting the real estate market and where it's going. Besides, as I said earlier, the pandemic is not the Great Recession 2008 where the economy was deeply and structurally impaired. It took years to recover because we had to fix every single thing. This time is temporary because the economy was well-structured, under control and had very good stats (stock market, unemployment rate...)

2. BRIGHT MLS REPORT for June 2020 showed POSITIVE sign of Philly real estate market. Buyers demand was strong. "June was the first month on record new pending home sales exceeded 10,000". The closing volume improved by a record of nearly 32% from last month, but it's still the slowest June in 9 years, which is understandable. The median sales price high on the strength of townhomes ($239.9K, 4.3% up). In a special case, Point Breeze townhomes closed at a median price of $383K, 25% up. The numbers show that buyers are coming back and ready to invest against Covid concerns.

3. WHY NOT INVESTING NOW? The rule of thumb in investing is that you shouldn't time the market and in reality, you almost can never time the market as investment sometimes is not about rationality; it could be a game where random variables appear all of a sudden. Tomorrow's dip may still be higher than today's pricing. I have a Mathematics & Economics degree and got 4.0 GPA at college, but I made terrible investment decisions before even when I programmed a deep learning algorithm using probability and statistics to predict the stock market. Sorry you investors, I have to tell you straight that as much I agree with you that we need to find the right time to invest, you can never know when is right. Instead, stick with your plan! Know what YOU WANT and buy low + sell high. That's it! A good investment decision includes a Good deal + Good time. You cannot control time but you can control the deal you choose. Be good at that and it's good enough. One thing to consider also is that SITTING ON THE MARKET ROBS YOU OF INCOME YIELD. If you're waiting for several months to invest, you could have finished a project and enjoyed a big fat profit from it. Warren Buffett, a legend investor said "Be fearful when others are greedy and greedy when others are fearful." 

I'm not writing this post to encourage you to invest without a thoughtful consideration. You brilliant investors are hungry for profit but also careful in every step you make. I respect that and encourage you to keep doing so. This post is share my personal thoughts on a common question I received from so many experienced and novice investors for the past few months.This is a very scary time but I think it's a momentary pause. I believe that the real estate market in general and in Philly will continue prospering. Good luck!

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Philadelphia · Member since 2017 · 38 posts · 32 votes
6y

Dear Victoria,

I do not share your optimism and do not believe that your assessment of the stock market is entirely relevant to the benefits of investing in Philadelphia real estate.

While you’ve gone out of your way to provide a number of compelling data points on the market, I think the balance sheets of most public traded companies tell a very different tale. If that isn’t compelling enough the number of Covid cases and it’s effect on our return to normal should be.

However, none of this seems to stop the unbridled optimism of an uneducated investor. I for one prefer to invest with logic over trends (albeit to my own detriment from time to time.)

Regarding the philly real estate market in the building class C/B market, investors have been buying properties and making deals for slightly above equity gains for the past number of years. If you weren’t heavy leveraging the assets of your business you were missing out. I know this because I’m one of them, and my conservative strategy and high requirement for returns made it difficult to close deals. 

Commercial and some residential properties will inevitably have high rates of evictions and landlords and investors at some point in time will have to divest. Few people have the stomach to have a business or property that costs them money. This in turn will could flood the market with properties, and perhaps depress the price points of rents as high quality tenants become harder do find.


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  • Investor · Montgomery County, PA · Member since 2020 · 255 posts · 238 votes
    6y

    Wow Victoria excellently put! While I've always considered myself a market optimist overall, I understand why many may see a future of economic downturn. Since coming in to the Philly market, I have come to understand why the city has grown and will continue to grow so much. Couldn't have put it better myself. One cannot ever time the market, rather invest gradually through the ups and the downs.

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2016 · 16 posts · 5 votes
    6y

    Great points, Victoria. I think it would help in your points 1 and 2 if they could be expanded by analysis of labor market and its trends which would lead into supply and demand analysis. 

    Wonder what the largest employers are doing - are they in a hiring freeze/laying off people? What are they doing with contractors, etc...

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2016 · 20 posts · 15 votes
    6y

    Thanks for sharing Victoria!

    The Philadelphia Fed has some interesting research on the Regional Economy that is worth a look:

    https://www.philadelphiafed.org/research-and-data/regional-economy

    https://www.philadelphiafed.org/-/media/research-and-data/regional-economy/beige-book/2020/200715-bb.pdf?la=en

  • Philadelphia · Member since 2017 · 38 posts · 32 votes
    6y

    Dear Victoria,

    I do not share your optimism and do not believe that your assessment of the stock market is entirely relevant to the benefits of investing in Philadelphia real estate.

    While you’ve gone out of your way to provide a number of compelling data points on the market, I think the balance sheets of most public traded companies tell a very different tale. If that isn’t compelling enough the number of Covid cases and it’s effect on our return to normal should be.

    However, none of this seems to stop the unbridled optimism of an uneducated investor. I for one prefer to invest with logic over trends (albeit to my own detriment from time to time.)

    Regarding the philly real estate market in the building class C/B market, investors have been buying properties and making deals for slightly above equity gains for the past number of years. If you weren’t heavy leveraging the assets of your business you were missing out. I know this because I’m one of them, and my conservative strategy and high requirement for returns made it difficult to close deals. 

    Commercial and some residential properties will inevitably have high rates of evictions and landlords and investors at some point in time will have to divest. Few people have the stomach to have a business or property that costs them money. This in turn will could flood the market with properties, and perhaps depress the price points of rents as high quality tenants become harder do find.


  • Wholesaler · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2016 · 124 posts · 81 votes
    6y

    No need to over complicate things. You can make a good deal in any market and any economic climate. Macro perspectives in real estate are good for identifying trends but for most investors on this site, they are participating on a micro and level, one deal at a time.  So even in a down trend, you can still make a good deal that works for your investment goals. 

  • Elise Bickel TauberBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Cranberry Twp · Member since 2017 · 384 posts · 198 votes
    6y

    Both markets I think are good investment markets now but expect to see one more solid stall in movement over the next few months between those holding off due to the election and COVID fluctuations with kids going back to school.  I think there absolutely is good deals to be had but we should see a better market come November/December and into 2021!!

  • Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2016 · 351 posts · 141 votes
    6y

    If you buy it right it's hard to lose. 

  • Investor · Philadelphia · Member since 2020 · 112 posts · 150 votes
    6y

    @Victoria Pham

    I love this! I especially liked what you had to say about predicting the market. In the stock market, they have the efficient market hypothesis which states that any changes in the value of a stock are immediately seen in its price. There is no lag.

    Taking this hypothesis to real estate is tricky because we do have so many investors and home-seekers who are unaware of all available information. However, if you look at the overall real estate market and ignore the random homes that were oversold or undersold, we should expect to see all the long-term effects of COVID in the current price of these homes.

    In short, if the real estate market is efficient, all the negative effects of COVID (as we currently understand them) have already been seen. Only as more unexpected information becomes available will we see a change in the markets direction.

    If you’re betting that the real estate market is going down, then you’re doing just that... your betting. It’s a gamble. We don’t know how long or how short COVID will last. But EVERYTHING we currently understand about COVID has already taken COMPLETE effect on the real estate market.

    If investors want to wait. Go ahead. But they have a 50/50 chance of being incorrect.

  • Kevin MoyerBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 269 posts · 301 votes
    6y

    Not saying @Victoria Pham isn't presenting valid data, and I appreciate the post- but just remember what 95% of posters and content creators on this website are all about- real estate deals. Almost EVERYONE in this community benefits from closing deals. Wholesalers, real estate agents, lenders, property managers, title companies- we all benefit from investors investing. Even if it's subconscious, the opinions and optimism posted on this site have a built-in selfish tendency to encourage people to buy real estate. Buyer beware.

    I do appreciate the thorough post and the dive into data

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  • Realtor · Member since 2020 · 82 posts · 83 votes
    6y

    @Kevin Moyer, I appreciate your time as well. But here is the thing. When you claim that my post has "a built-in selfish tendency to encourage people to buy real estate.", you should back it up with a good reason. If I'm "selfish" like you say, I will not spend 2 hours doing a thorough research and post my thought on Bigger Pocket where everyone is an expert in real estate investment. An expert will not make a investment decision based on a random post in a random forum. You can agree or disagree with me on what I write. I respect that and will take any arguments you'll make if any points I make in my post don't make sense to you. But as a professional, You shouldn't make an assumption of my good intention and personality. I don't like to take things personally and I know you don't mean to make it difficult but be careful and mindful with what you say even though we don't know each other. 



  • Member since 2020 · 437 posts · 675 votes
    6y

    @Victoria Pham

    Can you help connect the dots between the stock market gains and what you claim to be an improving economy.

    I am a stock market investor as well and have a top school MBA and a Wall Street background currently sitting on a 45% YTD return on a 7 figure equity portfolio.

    Even I don’t feel the economy is recovering. I know my stocks are doing well but they are all tech stocks and while they represent a chunk of the stock market, they do tell me squat about the average mom and pop store that closed down or the thousands of retail or restaurant workers who are out of a job or how close to 100k airline employees will lose jobs come September 30. Your compare between the progress of stocks and the economy on the ground may not hold. The stock market may be “looking forward” but the average RE investor has to cough up cash, deal with tenants, pay mortgage and collect rent now.

  • Realtor · Member since 2020 · 82 posts · 83 votes
    6y

    @Justin Thorpe, I agree with you that the stock market is not everything and it's not the single indicator of an economy, but more or less, it does say something about the health of the economy. There are stocks (tech stocks) are doing very well and there are stocks (Industrials - airlines...) are not performing great. But on average, the trend is looking forward, or businesses are getting better. When businesses are doing better, employment rate, or services indexes will be likely to go up. Therefore, mom and pop stores, employees in restaurants and many other minors, who are likely the tenants will benefit from it. 

    Talking about macro economics, there are many different schools of thoughts and I respect your point when you say you don't believe it's recovering. As an optimist, I think the recession is behind us and the economy is getting better. But how quick the economy recovers remains to be unseen. You can see what CBS expert says about the recovery: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/wall-street-recover-coronavirus/

    Regarding to housing market. Please read the report by National Association of Home Builders (Wells Fargo Housing Index). As an investor and a financial expert, you know that when a new house is built, dozens of small firms are involved, so this report is very important to gauge the housing market. In Jun 20, NAHB Chairman Dean Mon in a report said that “Inventory is tight, mortgage applications are increasing, interest rates are low and confidence is rising. And buyer traffic more than doubled in one month even as builders report growing online and phone inquiries stemming from the outbreak.”

    See the source here: 

    https://www.nahb.org/News-and-Economics/Industry-News/Press-Releases/2020/06/Builder-Confidence-Surges-in-June-as-Housing-Rebound-is-Underway

    Justin, I think you made a point and I agree with you that this time is challenging for a lot of people including investors. The future is not there to hold. I don't know what will happen and so do others. My prediction about the recovery could be wrong but it could also be true. We'll have to wait and see. Hope you enjoy reading the report and have more confidence in the housing market in particular and the economy in general


     

  • Rental Property Investor · Clementon. NJ · Member since 2019 · 116 posts · 25 votes
    6y

    @Victoria Pham

    I'm not so sure if you can rely on Nasdaq, SP500, and Dow Jones anymore on how the economy is faring. It used to be a bit more accurate but because of the wealth gap spread between the upper middle and lower class. You can say that those 3 stocks hold the biggest companies, but they're too big to fail so either way those stocks will never plummet and most likely wont reflect on the majority of how buissnesses are doing which is more reflective of how the economy is doing. I'm not certain but there was a stall on the number of people that applied for SBL from the federal government which caused a halt in the lending process. My interpretation is the complete opposite that the economy is not faring well. Especially since the government is keeping the job market on an only essential employee basis currently. If people dont have jobs, theres less spending, which leads to less movement in the economy. I believe that until jobs are all open, it's not safe to say that the economy is going to pick back up as quickly. One thing is for sure, however, after every recession, the government has injected money into the economy and because it's out of panic theres no way to know how much the economy actually needed, so it will always be more. This will lead to less valuation to the dollar. I would buy real estate right now only because you want to hold something more tangible than currency.

    This is 100% my own opinion. Might be wrong but who really knows.

  • Investor · Stafford, VA · Member since 2014 · 45 posts · 12 votes
    6y

    I am educated and intelligent enough to follow everything y'all are saying, but not enough to disagree with any counterpoints or anything fancy like that. But this is great stuff and really appreciate you all putting in the time and effort, especially in disagreements/debate. I'd really be interested in more discussions about the impact of COVID-19 to the many many submarkets in Philly, but that might be for another thread. For ex, the Student housing market around Temple U. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2020 · 37 posts · 21 votes
    6y

    @Victoria Pham it will get a little worse before it gets better but it would all be based on that Vaccine when the turn around will occur. Going into winter, people will stay home more, restaurants limited to outdoor dining will close for good as they are currently operating at a loss with outdoor dining only in some states. People will stop paying mortgage before they stop paying rent IMO. Rents will decrease across the board as LL need to fill vacancies. Tenants may downgrade to cheaper apartments they could afford or move into an area they couldn’t afford precovid.

    If I had to guess this ‘vaccine’ will be the telling point.

    I would assume it would be available earliest spring 2021 and hopefully see a full recovery by spring 2022. But of course I’m not expert, no one is!

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