NPN Market Pricing Feedback

NPN Market Pricing Feedback

Dion DePaoliPro Member
Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes

One of the most common questions when it comes to non-performing loans is rooted in pricing.  Due to the nature of loan sales it is sometimes difficult to get a feel for market pricing as sale prices are often not published.  However the GSE's and Ginnie Mae do publish their sale data so I figured I would share here for some reader insight.  

This sale data is from Fannie Mae on a pool of first lien NPNs published in Oct 2015 and set to close in December 2015.

The pool had about 7,000 loans totaling $1.24 billion in aggregate UPB, divided amongst three pools:

  • Pool #1: 1,963 loans with an aggregate UPB of $418,837,669; average loan size $213,366; weighted average note rate 5.21%; average delinquency 52 months; weighted average BPO LTV of 108%
  • Pool #1 winning bid was 72.36% of UPB at 64.74% BPO
  • Pool #2: 3,823 loans with an aggregate UPB of $588,367,863; average loan size $153,902; weighted average note rate 5.32%; average delinquency 34 months; weighted average BPO LTV of 70%
  • Pool #2 winning bid was 87.76% of UPB at 52.81% BPO
  • Pool #3: 1,224 loans with an aggregate UPB of $235,320,739; average loan size $192,256; weighted average note rate 4.90%; average delinquency 36 months; weighted average BPO LTV of 135%
  • Pool # 3 winning bid was 54.75% UPB at 68.80% BPO

The weighted average of the whole offering was $177,251 in UPB and 5.20% interest. The average delinquency of the loans was approximately 41 months with a weighted average BPO LTV of 95%. The aggregate trade value for the entire $1.24 billion in UPB was 76.47% of UPB at 80.23% BPO.

In general this pricing is tracking at the same level as what has traded through the year.  The pool with a dash of equity (pool 2 at 70% LTV) traded for a premium at 87.76% of UPB which came to 52.81% of BPO.  A good example to illustrate to folks that both the UPB and BPO levels matter in pricing talks and taking one or the other on their own sort of distorts the real market tolerance for risk in the asset class.  

Pools 1 and 3 which both traded in the mid to late sixty percentile (64.74% & 68.80% of BPO) has been the relative normal level in pricing over the last 12 months as last year's November sale also went off around an average price of 67% to 68% of BPO.  

I think it is valuable to share this information with up and coming note investors along with some of the more seasoned folks as this is a slice of the actual market.  I will also add that private loan investors or non-institutional loan investors are very much exposed to this pricing in the market and there is not two sets of pricing out there.  There is only one secondary market.  With thousands of loans in each of these pools the geographical footprint ranges across the board and includes judicial and non-judicial states.  In other words, these are not pools with high concentrations of loans in say Texas (non-judicial proceedings) which drives the pricing up due to shortened foreclosure timeline.  

Happy Investing.

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Real Estate Investor · Amherst, VA · Member since 2015 · 386 posts · 400 votes
10y

These numbers aren't representative of what people here should expect, on multiple levels.

1) Most product sold to retail investors is in the sub 125k range, which is much cheaper.

2) Those pools are for hundreds / thousands of loans while the retail investor will pay more for his 1-5 purchase.

So this data literally has zero impact if you're buying the note on a 60k condo in FL or a 40k house in Ohio. Keep that in mind. But please do bid 75%+ on my notes, that would be greatly appreciated :)

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  • Residential Real Estate Broker · East Orange, NJ · Member since 2014 · 297 posts · 26 votes
    10y

    Thank for the information. I am trying to find where these companies are so I can buy some of their loans.

    Gilbert Ross

  • Real Estate Investor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2014 · 316 posts · 165 votes
    10y

    @Dion DePaoli  Thanks for this!

  • Steve HodgdonPro Member
    Investor · Novato, CA · Member since 2015 · 432 posts · 321 votes
    10y

    thanks for the data. Is it readily available? I love to play with spreadsheets. It would be fun to break it down by state, by balance range, by vintage.

    There is a lot of imperfection iin this nichr. Also transparency is a problem.

    If you know in general terms what a $200k note in NY sold for in a giant pool maybe you can get a sense of retail value?

    Or do think too much?

  • Dion DePaoliPro Member
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Gilbert Ross Jr:

    Thank for the information. I am trying to find where these companies are so I can buy some of their loans.

    Gilbert Ross

     The trade has not concluded nor will you as a street level investor be able to purchase any of these loans once it does from the buyers.  You simply will not pass the counter-risk assessment.  Zero chance.

    The purchasing firms were subsidiaries of Goldman Sachs and Fortress.

  • Dion DePaoliPro Member
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Steve Hodgdon:

    thanks for the data. Is it readily available? I love to play with spreadsheets. It would be fun to break it down by state, by balance range, by vintage.

    There is a lot of imperfection iin this nichr. Also transparency is a problem.

    If you know in general terms what a $200k note in NY sold for in a giant pool maybe you can get a sense of retail value?

    Or do think too much?

     The bid data has already been circulated and is not available to street level investors.  General pricing can be gleaned from the metrics above.  Like I mentioned pricing over the last 12 months and even prior going back several years has been relatively the same with some upward pressure.

    Newer defaults in NY are trading in the mid 50%'s and older vintage which carries risk of collection limitations trades in the 40%'s depending.  If foreclosure is more seasoned you will see price climbs into the 60%'s.

  • Specialist · Orlando, FL · Member since 2015 · 117 posts · 89 votes
    10y
    Great post. I agree, these loans will not be available directly from the entities that purchased them from Freddie and Fannie, however they will funnel down through generations of the waterfall and land in the hands of the street level investor. The pricing will vary based on the asset price bands, with the deepest discount and inventory volume belonging to the assets under 125k in value.
  • Steve HodgdonPro Member
    Investor · Novato, CA · Member since 2015 · 432 posts · 321 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Dion DePaoli:
    Originally posted by @Steve Hodgdon:

    thanks for the data. Is it readily available? I love to play with spreadsheets. It would be fun to break it down by state, by balance range, by vintage.

    There is a lot of imperfection iin this nichr. Also transparency is a problem.

    If you know in general terms what a $200k note in NY sold for in a giant pool maybe you can get a sense of retail value?

    Or do think too much?

     The bid data has already been circulated and is not available to street level investors.  General pricing can be gleaned from the metrics above.  Like I mentioned pricing over the last 12 months and even prior going back several years has been relatively the same with some upward pressure.

    Newer defaults in NY are trading in the mid 50%'s and older vintage which carries risk of collection limitations trades in the 40%'s depending.  If foreclosure is more seasoned you will see price climbs into the 60%'s.

     Dion, thanks. Shouldn't we be taking the day off? Or at least fighting at Walmart over a crappy TV we don't need? Happy Thanksgiving.

  • Dion DePaoliPro Member
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Steve Hodgdon:

     Dion, thanks. Shouldn't we be taking the day off? Or at least fighting at Walmart over a crappy TV we don't need? Happy Thanksgiving.

     Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours Steve.  My biggest concern is eating the left overs fast enough to get back to a normal diet next week.  Cheers.

  • Orlando, FL · Member since 2015 · 18 posts · 2 votes
    10y

    Thanks @Dion DePaoli. Great info.

  • Real Estate Investor · Amherst, VA · Member since 2015 · 386 posts · 400 votes
    10y

    These numbers aren't representative of what people here should expect, on multiple levels.

    1) Most product sold to retail investors is in the sub 125k range, which is much cheaper.

    2) Those pools are for hundreds / thousands of loans while the retail investor will pay more for his 1-5 purchase.

    So this data literally has zero impact if you're buying the note on a 60k condo in FL or a 40k house in Ohio. Keep that in mind. But please do bid 75%+ on my notes, that would be greatly appreciated :)

  • Dion DePaoliPro Member
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    While it is true that lower valued property does indeed create downward pressure on pricing it is naive to suggest there is no relevance to the metrics of the trade.  The market is the market.

    Bids and purchase prices are a function of math, time, expenses and collect-ability not comparable sales.  This is not real property.  Which is why lower valued collateral loans trade for lower prices.  The cost to foreclose a $500k property is the same as a $50k.  We just have less property value to recover those costs from.  

    The volume of the trade affords no additional discount all loans are priced on a loan level basis with consideration to the aggregate dollars.  Proceeds still need to be allocated to satisfy the book value of each asset individually.  There is no CostCo in the mortgage secondary market.  

    It is also true that institutional investors generally have a lower return target than private investors allowing a higher bid/purchase price.  That said, the two parties still compete for the same inventory as the market inventory is the market inventory.  

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