Insurance question

Insurance question

Rehabber · Toledo, OH · Member since 2010 · 26 posts · 0 votes

Hi. I recently got my first rehab home under contract and am wondering what type of insurance I need to get on it. I've read 5 or 6 threads on it already on BP, but I was wondering more so about my specific situation. The home needs new HVAC, new plumbing, new carpet, paint and garage door. It also has a minor foundation issue. Purchase price ended up being 28.5, ARV roughly 100k, needs roughly 20k in rehab. Being my first rehab and not being a man of means, I don't have a ton of cash reserves to take on a ton of liability myself.

The thing is, I'll be having people in the home working on it, and when they're done I plan on visiting the house for a couple of hours almost every day. I live roughly 15 miles from the home. I don't know if this means it should be considered vacant or not, being that I'm not actually living in it, per se. I plan on hiring 'handymen', not licensed contractors, so I don't know if that would change my insurance options much or not. I'd prefer to pay monthly, being that I am new to 'the game', and really am not sure how quickly the home will sell. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

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J ScottPro Member
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Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
15y

If nobody is residing in the property (using it as a residence), it is considered "vacant".

You can get a builder's risk policy on a vacant property, but compared to a Landlord's Policy (for a rented house), they are pretty expensive (I've paid about $600/year for my properties when I've used them), and they don't cover a lot of things that are potential issues.

As far as contractors go, it doesn't matter if they are licensed or not (unless licenses are required for their specific trade); what matters more is whether they carry insurance or not. Preferably, you want your contractors to have both liability and workman's comp insurance; this will protect both them and YOU in case they get hurt on your job or screw something up that causes someone else to get hurt.

Personally, I don't let anyone on my job site without insurance, but that's just me. I would certainly recommend ensuring that anyone doing high risk work (on a ladder, using electricity, using power tools, etc) be insured to protect yourself.

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  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    15y

    If nobody is residing in the property (using it as a residence), it is considered "vacant".

    You can get a builder's risk policy on a vacant property, but compared to a Landlord's Policy (for a rented house), they are pretty expensive (I've paid about $600/year for my properties when I've used them), and they don't cover a lot of things that are potential issues.

    As far as contractors go, it doesn't matter if they are licensed or not (unless licenses are required for their specific trade); what matters more is whether they carry insurance or not. Preferably, you want your contractors to have both liability and workman's comp insurance; this will protect both them and YOU in case they get hurt on your job or screw something up that causes someone else to get hurt.

    Personally, I don't let anyone on my job site without insurance, but that's just me. I would certainly recommend ensuring that anyone doing high risk work (on a ladder, using electricity, using power tools, etc) be insured to protect yourself.

  • Rehabber · Toledo, OH · Member since 2010 · 26 posts · 0 votes
    15y
    Originally posted by J Scott:
    If nobody is residing in the property (using it as a residence), it is considered "vacant".

    You can get a builder's risk policy on a vacant property, but compared to a Landlord's Policy (for a rented house), they are pretty expensive (I've paid about $600/year for my properties when I've used them), and they don't cover a lot of things that are potential issues.

    As far as contractors go, it doesn't matter if they are licensed or not (unless licenses are required for their specific trade); what matters more is whether they carry insurance or not. Preferably, you want your contractors to have both liability and workman's comp insurance; this will protect both them and YOU in case they get hurt on your job or screw something up that causes someone else to get hurt.

    Personally, I don't let anyone on my job site without insurance, but that's just me. I would certainly recommend ensuring that anyone doing high risk work (on a ladder, using electricity, using power tools, etc) be insured to protect yourself.

    Thanks very much for the response. I called our regular insurer, State Farm, and they said they wouldn't be able to insure it regularly, but are going to refer us to something called the Ohio Fair Plan(http://www.ohiofairplan.com/About.aspx)? I guess it's something that's available in many other states as well. Have you ever heard of it? If so, is it something good for a rehabber?

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    15y

    Did you read this next thread, and the links in there too?
    http://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/67/topics/47212-do-you-need-home-insurance-on-a-flip

    One of the companies given (Wrenn / Renovators / Affinity Group) offers a monthly premium for this type of coverage.

  • Rehabber · Toledo, OH · Member since 2010 · 26 posts · 0 votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Steve Babiak:
    Did you read this next thread, and the links in there too?
    http://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/67/topics/47212-do-you-need-home-insurance-on-a-flip

    Yes sir. I'm actually thinking of maybe going with a group you recommended in one of the threads, Affinity.

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    15y

    Wrenn / Renovators / Affinity - all are under one and the same operation. I've always made the checks payable to Affinity.

  • Residential Real Estate Agent · Mt. Pleasant, SC · Member since 2010 · 257 posts · 130 votes
    15y

    I have used Foremost Insurance for several vacant policies. They do a variety of non-traditional policies (vacant, renters, mobile home, etc.), which are generally pretty expensive, but they are easy to work with. When I purchase I insure the property for what I plan to have into it, and when the rehab is complete, I raise the coverage to the new value. I also carry $500,000 of liability and they pay $1000 of medical expenses no questions asked if there is a minor injury.

  • Real Estate Investor · Mission, KS · Member since 2008 · 67 posts · 15 votes
    15y

    Thanks for the love Steve!

    Tim - We are all part of the same family of companies. We've been able to develop programs specifically designed for RE investing.[SOLICITATION REMOVED]

  • Homeowner · CA · Member since 2011 · 71 posts · 2 votes
    15y

    Affinity Group Management (Affinitygm.com).

    Will they cover injury during rehab for the contractors?

  • Homeowner · CA · Member since 2011 · 71 posts · 2 votes
    15y

    I heard one of my friend hired a roofer, and the contractor fell off the roof. my friend has to pay $500k out of his pocket. that's horrible.

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    15y

    That's why you DON'T HIRE UNINSURED people to do repair and renovation work. Now, if you have employees, then you will have to get your own Workmen's Compensation Insurance coverage, so that your employees are covered in circumstances such as you described.

    Your friend probably was deemed to be an "employer" by what you described. To avoid that situation, hire ONLY independent contractors, and make sure they have both liability insurance coverage AND workmen's compensation insurance.

  • Specialist · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 852 votes
    15y

    Hi Tim, Yeah there are different policies out there, most vacant policies are quite a bit and do not cover a lot, J Scott is correct, but I think 600 per year on a vacant home is cheap! I pay a lot more than that. I would use his guy, but if he can not cover you in your state, I have a guy in Ohio that rocks! I would post his name, but do not wanna be flagged. Contact me if you want his info. Or If I get a BP Blessing I will put it on the post!

  • Rehabber · Toledo, OH · Member since 2010 · 26 posts · 0 votes
    15y

    Thanks for all of the suggestions, guys. I ended up getting the insurance lined up.

    Originally posted by Steve Babiak:
    That's why you DON'T HIRE UNINSURED people to do repair and renovation work. Now, if you have employees, then you will have to get your own Workmen's Compensation Insurance coverage, so that your employees are covered in circumstances such as you described.

    Your friend probably was deemed to be an "employer" by what you described. To avoid that situation, hire ONLY independent contractors, and make sure they have both liability insurance coverage AND workmen's compensation insurance.

    Steve, is there any kind of contract you could write up that, when signed, would free yourself of liability and allow you to hire handymen without insurance/workman's comp worries?

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    15y

    Check with your agent about insuring a vacant property as a second home, it's an HO policy with a little higher premium. I used a SHO policy on a property that was across the street from my primary as well as on 50+ miles away.

    They ask, is this a rental? It's not, it's empty and I go there to do whatever. It won't cover major renovation work or materials but it will for minor work being done. If you only do minor work over time, you should be fine. Depends on what has to be done.

    When it's ready to rent, call your agent, you need a LL policy.

    The contractors' policy will cover materials on site,so assess that risk.

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