Why I Prefer BRRRR Over Flips

Why I Prefer BRRRR Over Flips

San Francisco, CA · Member since 2015 · 786 posts · 717 votes

Seems to be a general concept that you have to start with wholesaling to get money to do flips. And then do flips to buy long term rentals. I agree that if you have no money that wholesaling is the way to start, but I cannot understand why you would do flips to find long term rentals.

1) BRRRR is a way better way to learn construction management than flips. I ran into a lot of construction problems this year when I tried scaling from 3 - 5 projects to 20-25 projects running at the same time.

I have done a lot of flips in over the last sixteen years but I think BRRRR is an easier way to learn construction.

On a flip, you have no room for error. If you use hard money like I often do (even though I have lots of capital in 3 hedge funds), the cost of construction delays is incredible. If it takes 6-months to sell a flip, the holding costs are 8% of ARV. It costs 8% of ARV every six months. So if it takes you 12-months to do your rehab, you are paying 16% of ARV plus 10% in selling closing costs. Even the smallest delays and you are not making any money on a flip.

BRRRR on the other hand is much more forgiving. If you are holding onto a rental for 7 to 12 years, a few construction delays will barely effect your IRR annualized.

2) Flips have less margin because you have to pay 10% in closing costs.

3) Flips are seasonal at least in areas with four seasons. Generally unless you are in a sunny area year round, August to February is a bad time to sell. BRRRR can be refinanced at any time.

4) Flips are much much more risky if the market crashes. At 8% of ARV per six months of project holding, during market crashes it can take 18-24 months to sell a property. Can anyone survive paying 32% of ARV plus 10% in selling costs. BRRRR is based on cash flow and you should be fine during a market crash.

5) BRRRR requires less rehab. You are renting it out and need to make it nicer than other rental comps versus flip comps.

6) BRRRR often has higher returns. I get 70% IRR consistently on BRRRR. I prefer BRRRR at 70% IRR than a 2% rental at 24% IRR. In this hot market, I see people flipping and happy to get a 10% IRR. If I am going to take the risks of flipping, I need to get 150% IRR.

7) With BRRRR, your tenant pays down your debt while the market increases your value through appreciation.

8) With flips, you can't compete with hedge funds because they can pay more for properties since they are getting their capital at less than 2%.

9) I see the smaller investors getting smashed everyday by their flip providers. Company charge $30,000 on assignment fees, take another $80,000 in hard money interest and make the listback mandatory with $30,000 in listing commissions. I see flip providers making $140,000 and the small investor making $15,000 or losing money and taking all of the risk.

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Businessmen · Boston, MA · Member since 2014 · 47 posts · 6 votes
10y

great points. So what your basically saying the small guy once again being destroyed by big corporations. 

 If real estates becoming so sophisticated for the average joe to comprehend. What do you think will be the next trend. 

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  • Businessmen · Boston, MA · Member since 2014 · 47 posts · 6 votes
    10y

    great points. So what your basically saying the small guy once again being destroyed by big corporations. 

     If real estates becoming so sophisticated for the average joe to comprehend. What do you think will be the next trend. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Orlando, FL · Member since 2016 · 463 posts · 220 votes
    10y

    Good points.... I agree that there is much better return on one's money, long-term, with BRRRR. I see long-term buy and hold as a wealth building tool (albeit slow), while flips provide a tidy sum (if successful) in a short time.

    But not everyone wants to be a landlord/lady, and some really do get the technique and systems down for successful flips and become wealthy doing it.

  • Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    @Ryland Taniguchi, you "see the smaller investors getting smashed everyday by their flip providers"? I suppose you mean: investors who got sucked in by their guru? Sad, really...

  • San Francisco, CA · Member since 2015 · 786 posts · 717 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Brent Coombs:

    @Ryland Taniguchi, you "see the smaller investors getting smashed everyday by their flip providers"? I suppose you mean: investors who got sucked in by their guru? Sad, really...

     Not just gurus but also groups that find deals, loan hard money and take the listbacks. I see people getting smashed every day when I talk to investors. 

  • Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    @Ryland Taniguchi I don't know your state but if it was here, you will be making $400/unit on a 700k 4plex property, yeah, appreciation is there, but what if market crashes or dips. You don't lose money until you sell though, might be a big negative if you have vacancies. On a flip, you can make at least 100k on an REO all said and done, maybe that's two properties in the whole state, but that's what I love about CA. Going from 3-5 to 20-25 at any given time is very challenging both in-house crew wise, extra more challenge if you hire out to subcontractor (I never believed you can have success if you're using them), even with an in-house crew, growing 3-5x a year should be a good pace to scale, this way you can test your abilities and how strong your group is. Developing is also another option, with a scale of doing 20-25 projects at a time, I think you can easily get a bank to give you a shot.

  • San Francisco, CA · Member since 2015 · 786 posts · 717 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Manolo D.:

    @Ryland Taniguchi I don't know your state but if it was here, you will be making $400/unit on a 700k 4plex property, yeah, appreciation is there, but what if market crashes or dips. You don't lose money until you sell though, might be a big negative if you have vacancies. On a flip, you can make at least 100k on an REO all said and done, maybe that's two properties in the whole state, but that's what I love about CA. Going from 3-5 to 20-25 at any given time is very challenging both in-house crew wise, extra more challenge if you hire out to subcontractor (I never believed you can have success if you're using them), even with an in-house crew, growing 3-5x a year should be a good pace to scale, this way you can test your abilities and how strong your group is. Developing is also another option, with a scale of doing 20-25 projects at a time, I think you can easily get a bank to give you a shot.

    Construction is not where I want to spend a lot of time and energy on. I run my hedge fund mostly focusing on 50% LTV non-recourse lending on cash flow properties. I don't like banks and don't need them. I do development to push the yield up.

  • Investor · Redmond, WA · Member since 2016 · 267 posts · 110 votes
    9y

    @Ryland Taniguchi - do you think brrrr out of state is feasible? If so, any state or city where still opportunities are there.

    I am doing Brrr  in Tacoma area but deals are drying up.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Montgomery, NY · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    Interesting read. I am the investor who has never entertained a rental. I have only focused on flips, and for my short term goals, will continue to only focus on flips. I own a property, fix, sell and use the profit to reinvest in another. I have been on all sides of construction, so that part is where I am most knowledgeable.

    The appeal of cash flowing from a rental is nice. The negative is dealing with being a landlord on a lot of properties, and needing to continue to fix house issues with the same property for years and years.

    I also get a kick out of making properties nice. Opening walls, nice cabinets, granite, trim work throughout. These things all help on a flip, but it seems most rentals get the bare minimum work/finishes to stay in line with the rent rate. I've put granite in an 800 SF house. If it was a rental, I imagine people would have said that is crazy. That house sold in a couple days, and appraised as high as it possibly could. That's the part of this I really like, making something people fall in love with and making money with it as well!

  • San Francisco, CA · Member since 2015 · 786 posts · 717 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Rudy Manna:

    @Ryland Taniguchi - do you think brrrr out of state is feasible? If so, any state or city where still opportunities are there.

    I am doing Brrr  in Tacoma area but deals are drying up.

    I have not found the next location yet but I am looking to do BRRRR next in florida, Kelsy/longview/Vancouver or wherever makes sense. We'll see how Tacoma does toward the end of this year but am tired of overregulation in Washington state on both the deal acquisition and construction sides. Also, permits are taking forever in Tacoma.

  • Specialist · USA · Member since 2016 · 226 posts · 51 votes
    9y

    @Ryland Taniguchi What is it about Florida that attracts you to its market?

  • Wholesaler · Tampa, FL · Member since 2016 · 53 posts · 27 votes
    9y

    Single-family homes here in Florida have increased in value by 11.3% from Sept 2015 to Sept 2016 compared to the nationwide increase of 5.6%. So homes in Florida I have increased in value over twice as much is the national average. 

  • Investor · Ocala, FL · Member since 2016 · 299 posts · 110 votes
    9y

    Don't forget Florida has no state income tax.

  • Investor · Warner Robins, GA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 490 votes
    9y

    I agree! Very nice points 

  • Specialist · USA · Member since 2016 · 226 posts · 51 votes
    9y

    @David Dec That is a valuable statistic David.  Do you work a lot with out of state investors?

  • Morristown, TN · Member since 2017 · 200 posts · 22 votes
    8y

    @Ryland Taniguch

    2) Flips have less margin because you have to pay 10% in closing costs.

    May I ask where you get this estimate from? Is it 6% Realtor fees, then 3-4% buying and closing costs?

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