Pulling permits in Philadelphia? Need Advice - First-Time BRRRR

[Sharma Parth]

Hi guys - we are about to close on a property soon in Philly and are planning to do the following work - 

-Add HVAC, Add a full bathroom and add a half bathroom, Fix kitchen (keep same layout)

My contractor is saying that (Approach - 1 ) - we don't need to pull permits. We can finish the work in 8 weeks. After that, I can request a CO from the town and then make it easy for me to rent or sell it. (Approach - 2) - He says that if he is asked to pull permits, he is not responsible for any additional work that the inspector may throw (basically more money out of my pocket on the rehab costs). In his experience, for this job he says we don't need a permit and it will only cause more delays. 

We are torn between both approaches here.

Cam someone suggest what approach is better? If we don't get a permit then does the inspector for the CO ask for it when he/she comes for inspection? or they just care about the house being "liveable"? 

Thank you in advance!

[Alan F.]

Quote from @Sharma Parth:

Hi guys - we are about to close on a property soon in Philly and are planning to do the following work - 

-Add HVAC, Add a full bathroom and add a half bathroom, Fix kitchen (keep same layout)

My contractor is saying that (Approach - 1 ) - we don't need to pull permits. We can finish the work in 8 weeks. After that, I can request a CO from the town and then make it easy for me to rent or sell it. (Approach - 2) - He says that if he is asked to pull permits, he is not responsible for any additional work that the inspector may throw (basically more money out of my pocket on the rehab costs). In his experience, for this job he says we don't need a permit and it will only cause more delays. 

We are torn between both approaches here.

Cam someone suggest what approach is better? If we don't get a permit then does the inspector for the CO ask for it when he/she comes for inspection? or they just care about the house being "liveable"? 

Thank you in advance!

 I would double check with the city, remember, trust but verify.

Here's a link 

https://www.phila.gov/services/permits-violations-licenses/a....

I'm doubtful that this scope of work doesn't require a permit.

I do my jobs with permits because I'm risk adverse.

Its easier to ask for permission than beg for forgiveness.Best of luck 

[Eric Greenberg]

Where is the project specifically located in Philly? Its a gamble to go the permit route or not in Philly and absolutely matters the neighborhood/your neighbors as they are usually the folks that will call L&I on you OR if your property is near other construction sites where inspectors would be traveling to/from.

Its usually best to go the permit route when adding bathrooms ect but comes at a cost time/expense wise.

[Peter Mckernan]

Quote from @Sharma Parth:

Hi guys - we are about to close on a property soon in Philly and are planning to do the following work - 

-Add HVAC, Add a full bathroom and add a half bathroom, Fix kitchen (keep same layout)

My contractor is saying that (Approach - 1 ) - we don't need to pull permits. We can finish the work in 8 weeks. After that, I can request a CO from the town and then make it easy for me to rent or sell it. (Approach - 2) - He says that if he is asked to pull permits, he is not responsible for any additional work that the inspector may throw (basically more money out of my pocket on the rehab costs). In his experience, for this job he says we don't need a permit and it will only cause more delays. 

We are torn between both approaches here.

Cam someone suggest what approach is better? If we don't get a permit then does the inspector for the CO ask for it when he/she comes for inspection? or they just care about the house being "liveable"? 

Thank you in advance!

 The 5 things you need permits for on a property:

1. HVAC

2. Electrical panel/updating wiring throughout house

3. Roof

4. New/updated plumbing/sewer/septic

5. Anything structural (adding/taking away walls or square footage)

6. Bonus*** windows *** 

[Sharma Parth]

Thank you all

[Stuart Udis]

@Sharma Parth It doesn’t sound like the scope of work you described would require a CO. In Philadelphia a CO is issued for new construction, additions, alterations that impact exits or fire ratings and renovations that change the use. I’m still a proponent for obtaining necessary permits as it costs more if caught, are issued a stop work order and have to then apply.  Have you verified with your builders risk carrier that you will have coverage if there’s a claim and the renovation is completed without proper permits? Also that your contractors carrier will pick up coverage if they are working without permits? Your seller disclosure also looks better when you can check the boxes stating the work was completed with permits when it’s time for resale.  

Ultimately it’s personal preference but if you choose to proceed without permits you should at least use trades who have the ability to obtain permits in Philadelphia. As frustrating as getting hit with a stop work order can be it’s worse if the work that is partially completed was done by non licensed contractors. Now you have to find contractors to apply for permits and assume the work that was completed. They will charge a premium and rarely warrant any of the work. At least if the workers who complete the work are licensed you can avoid this headache if caught because they can obtain the permits and complete the work they started.

[Bruce Woodruff]

Quote from @Stuart Udis:

Your seller disclosure also looks better when you can check the boxes stating the work was completed with permits when it’s time for resale.  

At least if the workers who complete the work are licensed you can avoid this headache if caught because they can obtain the permits and complete the work they started.

 This ^^^^^^ Well said!

[Sharma Parth]

Quote from @Stuart Udis:

@Sharma Parth It doesn’t sound like the scope of work you described would require a CO. In Philadelphia a CO is issued for new construction, additions, alterations that impact exits or fire ratings and renovations that change the use. I’m still a proponent for obtaining necessary permits as it costs more if caught, are issued a stop work order and have to then apply.  Have you verified with your builders risk carrier that you will have coverage if there’s a claim and the renovation is completed without proper permits? Also that your contractors carrier will pick up coverage if they are working without permits? Your seller disclosure also looks better when you can check the boxes stating the work was completed with permits when it’s time for resale.  

Ultimately it’s personal preference but if you choose to proceed without permits you should at least use trades who have the ability to obtain permits in Philadelphia. As frustrating as getting hit with a stop work order can be it’s worse if the work that is partially completed was done by non licensed contractors. Now you have to find contractors to apply for permits and assume the work that was completed. They will charge a premium and rarely warrant any of the work. At least if the workers who complete the work are licensed you can avoid this headache if caught because they can obtain the permits and complete the work they started.

 Thank you

[Steven Goldman]

Quote from @Sharma Parth:

Hi guys - we are about to close on a property soon in Philly and are planning to do the following work - 

-Add HVAC, Add a full bathroom and add a half bathroom, Fix kitchen (keep same layout)

My contractor is saying that (Approach - 1 ) - we don't need to pull permits. We can finish the work in 8 weeks. After that, I can request a CO from the town and then make it easy for me to rent or sell it. (Approach - 2) - He says that if he is asked to pull permits, he is not responsible for any additional work that the inspector may throw (basically more money out of my pocket on the rehab costs). In his experience, for this job he says we don't need a permit and it will only cause more delays. 

We are torn between both approaches here.

Cam someone suggest what approach is better? If we don't get a permit then does the inspector for the CO ask for it when he/she comes for inspection? or they just care about the house being "liveable"? 

Thank you in advance!

Hi Sharma: I am stunned that anyone would suggest that you start a rehab in Philadelphia without permits. If you do so and get caught you will have a tremendous problem. I know the Director of the construction division of License and Inspection and if you are doing anything other than cosmetic painting and maintenance you will screw yourself if you do not obtain permits.

It is a good suggestion to use contractors properly licensed in Philadelphia. To obtain a permit you will need a scope of work and sketch plan. Permits are all pulled by your contractor through a website called Eclipse. Generally speaking, contractors who are not licensed or, do not want to follow the Boca code, will suggest that you do not need permits. I would avoid those contractors. Good luck.

[Alan Asriants]

Up to you completely. Technically you HAVE to, but 90% of rehabs in philly are done without them... With that level of rehab its possible to get away with it. Make sure your contractor is licensed and insured and most importantly - qualified for the job. 

I've seen non permitted work that is much better than permitted work. Half of the new construction in Phila (that had to be permitted) is falling apart due to negligence of contractor and inspectors. 

The permit process will not guarantee a higher level of work, the contractor will 

[Armstrong Maignan]

Quote from @Sharma Parth:

Hi guys - we are about to close on a property soon in Philly and are planning to do the following work - 

-Add HVAC, Add a full bathroom and add a half bathroom, Fix kitchen (keep same layout)

My contractor is saying that (Approach - 1 ) - we don't need to pull permits. We can finish the work in 8 weeks. After that, I can request a CO from the town and then make it easy for me to rent or sell it. (Approach - 2) - He says that if he is asked to pull permits, he is not responsible for any additional work that the inspector may throw (basically more money out of my pocket on the rehab costs). In his experience, for this job he says we don't need a permit and it will only cause more delays. 

We are torn between both approaches here.

Cam someone suggest what approach is better? If we don't get a permit then does the inspector for the CO ask for it when he/she comes for inspection? or they just care about the house being "liveable"? 

Thank you in advance!

 I'm in touch with a permit expeditor. Shoot me a message for her phone number!

[Valerie H.]

I work for a general contractor and my advice is get permits. Period. End of story. Otherwise you will end up with a huge orange sign on your front door with a stop work order. 

[Jeff Henderson]

As a GC myself I would be extremely leery of working with someone who suggested those approaches to you. You need a mechanical permit for the HVAC, and you need a residential construction permit or EZ permit open in order to pull the mechanical permit. For his second approach I can confidently tell you it will cost you much more money, and cause several delays. I would insist on him puling the permits. I would also have every possible scenario moving forward specified in the contract. If he isn't open to that, you need to find another contractor.

[Bruce Woodruff]

Quote from @Jeff Henderson:

As a GC myself I would be extremely leery of working with someone who suggested those approaches to you. You need a mechanical permit for the HVAC, and you need a residential construction permit or EZ permit open in order to pull the mechanical permit. For his second approach I can confidently tell you it will cost you much more money, and cause several delays. I would insist on him puling the permits. I would also have every possible scenario moving forward specified in the contract. If he isn't open to that, you need to find another contractor.

I agree. It's a matter of fact I would just ditch this guy right now and find somebody else. Any contractor that starts off a project with this attitude is just going to be trouble in my experience.

[Jeff Henderson]

Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

Quote from @Jeff Henderson:

As a GC myself I would be extremely leery of working with someone who suggested those approaches to you. You need a mechanical permit for the HVAC, and you need a residential construction permit or EZ permit open in order to pull the mechanical permit. For his second approach I can confidently tell you it will cost you much more money, and cause several delays. I would insist on him puling the permits. I would also have every possible scenario moving forward specified in the contract. If he isn't open to that, you need to find another contractor.

I agree. It's a matter of fact I would just ditch this guy right now and find somebody else. Any contractor that starts off a project with this attitude is just going to be trouble in my experience.

 Yes, exactly. Well said

[Jonathan Klemm]

What's up @Sharma Parth!  Congrats on your upcoming closing brother!

Option 1.  I am not familiar with the building department in Philly, but here in Chicago there is no way that would be "proper" way of going about a renovation of that extent.  Using this option would be short term thinking, which can in fact cost more in the long run.  How does it work to call for a CO (Certificate Occupancy?) after work has been done with no permit?

Option 2.  Of course he shouldn't be responsible for additional work required by inspection that is NOT INCLUDED IN THE ORGINAL SCOPE.  Why is he thinking additional work will pop up not in scope?  He should be doing all the work to code, right?  Is he using a licensed plumber?

I'd network some more and find some other contractors as well...attend some local meetups.

[Sharma Parth]

Quote from @Jeff Henderson:

As a GC myself I would be extremely leery of working with someone who suggested those approaches to you. You need a mechanical permit for the HVAC, and you need a residential construction permit or EZ permit open in order to pull the mechanical permit. For his second approach I can confidently tell you it will cost you much more money, and cause several delays. I would insist on him puling the permits. I would also have every possible scenario moving forward specified in the contract. If he isn't open to that, you need to find another contractor.

Thanks Jeff so here is what I understood - 

EZ or construction permit - Step 1

Mechanical permit - Step 2 for the HVAC

Plumbing permit - Step 3 for the new bathroom to add

How long does it take for the town to send someone for the inspection for these 3 permits? E.g. - if it's Day 1 today then will they come on Day 30?

[Jeff Henderson]

Quote from @Sharma Parth:

Quote from @Jeff Henderson:

As a GC myself I would be extremely leery of working with someone who suggested those approaches to you. You need a mechanical permit for the HVAC, and you need a residential construction permit or EZ permit open in order to pull the mechanical permit. For his second approach I can confidently tell you it will cost you much more money, and cause several delays. I would insist on him puling the permits. I would also have every possible scenario moving forward specified in the contract. If he isn't open to that, you need to find another contractor.

Thanks Jeff so here is what I understood - 

EZ or construction permit - Step 1

Mechanical permit - Step 2 for the HVAC

Plumbing permit - Step 3 for the new bathroom to add

How long does it take for the town to send someone for the inspection for these 3 permits? E.g. - if it's Day 1 today then will they come on Day 30?

It depends on the area and the inspector but they normally schedule about a week out in Philadelphia.