What's the Deal with all these Deals?

What's the Deal with all these Deals?

Scott TrenchPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 6k+ votes

I was debating this the other day with a friend of mine - why is it that investors seem to really be focusing on finding as many deals as humanly possible? It seems like everywhere I turn folks have the strategy of "acquiring 10 deals over the next two years" or similar language that is gauged at acquiring many properties over rapid periods of time.

I am unable to understand the merits of this acquire-as-many-properties-as-possible approach when compared with the approach of purchasing just 1-2 properties per year (or even one property every couple years), but purchasing larger and nicer properties each time . 

For example, instead of acquiring 50 $100,000 SFRs, why not attempt to consolidate all your holdings into one $5M apartment building? Or, if you wanted a little diversity, maybe a small strip mall, a 10 unit apartment complex, and a mixed-use property, each at $1-2M in value?

To me, this approach seems like it will produce the same financial rewards, with the added benefit of being much less work and management!

Am I missing something here? Would love to hear thoughts - both from people who went the 50+ properties path, AND from those that sold their early small investments and bought bigger commercial properties. 

While I realize that it's possible to systematize the acquisition and management of small properties, it seems to me that the systematization of large commercial buildings is far less expensive and far simpler - fewer units, fewer tenants, more scalable projects, etc.

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James MasottiPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Washington Township, NJ · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 976 votes
10y

@Scott Trench - While I'm definitely not on the scale you are referring to, I can tell you my logic behind acquiring SFR, is in the ease that they will have at disposing them down the road. With larger commercial buildings you will always be dealing with investors, which means you may wait longer to sell, and unless you've been able to significantly improve the revenue stream or costs of the property, you're buying based on the cap rate and still again selling there. Where as with my SFR portfolio, I have more options...I could more quickly liquidate to another investor and recoup my investment, I could upgrade a bit and then sell off at retail, I could lease option to my tenant. And probably some more exits that I can think of. This is why I'm interested in acquiring a base of SFR rentals, before I even start looking at larger commercial deals...this will be my cash flow base that I leverage to start...a larger more consolidated approach like the one you discussed with commercial units.

At least that's my logic...I can't speak for other investors...but I do look forward to reading their responses.

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  • J. MartinPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    @Scott Trench,

    I think it partially has to do with establishing a track record, knowing you know what you are doing, and being able to invest piece by piece as you get capital, partners, and knowledge, with deals you can understand well. 

    If we all waited until we could sink all our funds into our "Ideal" $5MM deal, we may miss the RE train!!!

    I thought I would always keep all my properties, but now I'm pretty sure I'll 1031 exchange at least out of 1 or 2.. We'll see about the rest.

    Can be dangerous to go on an acquisition spree just to hit a target though!

    I'd rather have 1 or 2 GREAT deals a year than 5-10 marginal ones!!

  • James MasottiPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Washington Township, NJ · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 976 votes
    10y

    @Scott Trench - While I'm definitely not on the scale you are referring to, I can tell you my logic behind acquiring SFR, is in the ease that they will have at disposing them down the road. With larger commercial buildings you will always be dealing with investors, which means you may wait longer to sell, and unless you've been able to significantly improve the revenue stream or costs of the property, you're buying based on the cap rate and still again selling there. Where as with my SFR portfolio, I have more options...I could more quickly liquidate to another investor and recoup my investment, I could upgrade a bit and then sell off at retail, I could lease option to my tenant. And probably some more exits that I can think of. This is why I'm interested in acquiring a base of SFR rentals, before I even start looking at larger commercial deals...this will be my cash flow base that I leverage to start...a larger more consolidated approach like the one you discussed with commercial units.

    At least that's my logic...I can't speak for other investors...but I do look forward to reading their responses.

  • Investor · Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2008 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    @Scott Trench

    Hi Scott 

    if you talk about 20% down and dependent on bank financing maybe you have an argument.

    If you have all the tools in your toolbox to avoid bank financing I doubt it

  • Investor · Palm Desert, CA · Member since 2015 · 215 posts · 64 votes
    10y

    I would never advise a rookie investor to start with an expensive piece of real estate, even if they thought they could afford it. Newbies just don't have the investing experience, and often they also lack the practical experience. I've often said that even if you don't intend to do any of the reno work or upkeep on your properties, you must have at least the knowledge about what is required; at the very least, you will be able to deal with contractors and minimize your risk of being ripped off. Acquiring this knowledge does not happen quickly, so if a novice has jumped into buying one expensive property, those carrying costs could prove to be a deal-breaker while they are educating themselves. Doing multiple properties, whether they be SFR's, complexes, or commercial, is great when you've built up your knowledge base and most importantly, have a trusted group of people to do the work required; it's just a matter of personal choice as to which kind or how many at one time.

  • Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 531 posts · 266 votes
    10y

    The difference is financing. Much easier to get financing on a $100k property than it is on a $5M property. 

  • Alan FaitelPro Member
    Real Estate Coach · estero FL · Member since 2015 · 289 posts · 45 votes
    10y

    A person can't be good at all areas of the market, SFR are the easiest. The bigger the commercial deal, the bigger the shark that is selling it to you. Funding a commercial deal for cash is easy, finding a commercial deal that will meet your cash on cash return you need is 1000 times harder then you think. An experienced investor can figure out your SFR market in a day, but it may take a life time to know the Commercial.

  • Scott TrenchPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    10y

    @Alan Faitel Here's where I don't fully agree - I feel that yes, a SFR is simple and if you only have one property, then a SFR is the simplest.

    However, it seems to me that it would be harder and less efficient to manage a business with 10 SFRs than a single 10 unit apartment complex. Both could generate the same cash flow, and both could be in the same market (meaning that the homes and the apartment complex could both benefit from appreciation - the apartment seeing valuation at lower cap rates). Why on earth would I want the 10 SFRs in this case? I'd rather do my (admittedly tougher) due diligence fewer times. My market study once. Sure, all these things might be more difficult on a commercail building than a SFR, but is it twice as hard? 10 times as hard? Also - why do you feel that it takes a lifetime to know commercial? Know your market, do your homework, and do your due diligence on the properties, right? Why is it a lifetime, rather than a little bit more intensive than residential, to learn commercial?

    As for some of the other commenters here, the idea is this:

    Buy a small multifamily in year 1

    Buy a larger multifamily in year 2

    Buy a great, large, nice multifamily in year 3

    Buy a small commercial property in year 4

    Buy a larger commercial property in year 5

    This is to be done with conventional financing, using cash flows from previous investments, and is in contrast to the widely popular strategy of accumulating SFRs in the manner described below:

    Buy 1 SFR in year 1

    Buy 2 SFRs in year 2

    Buy 3 SFRs in year 3

    Buy 4 SFRs in year 4

    Buy 5 SFRs in year 5

    I know that real estate doesn't work out exactly like this, but please understand the argument that I'm trying to grasp are the economic advantages of purchasing a large number of SFRs, vs buying just 1 property or so per year, but buying larger and larger each time, snowballing NOT into a vast number of houses, but instead into an equivalently large dollar volume of real estate assets, but with fewer properties that offer economies of scale. I'm not jumping into huge deals, I'm just expecting my real estate snowball not to involve many properties, but larger properties with each compounding purchase.

    I don't intend to raise money - I intend to save up and put down the standard 20-25% of my own or maybe 1-2 partners' cash. 

    @James Masotti I think you bring some good points up. I'm curious - why do you think that it would be difficult to unload a commercial property, relative to many SFRs? It seems to me that while a single SFR might be easier to sell than a single commercial property, selling a commercial property probably isn't 10 times as hard as selling an SFR - therefore that logic would suggest that a portfolio of many SFRs is still harder to unload than a portfolio of a handful of commercial properties. Does that make sense? Plus, there are lot of investors out there, and a lot of funds looking to buy these assets.

  • James MasottiPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Washington Township, NJ · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 976 votes
    10y

    @Scott Trench - I would say that part of my thought on why SFR's would be easier to sell is in large part due to my own ignorance of the commercial real estate space. I know where I live here in South Jersey commercial space stays for sale for a long time...and while houses can too...there's always a reason why the houses is on the market too long. The right price will always allow a house to sell relative to the other properties on the market. I guess my thought is even if I needed to liquidate to other investors some day...there are many more cash buyers for $50k houses that could retail for $100k than for a $1.5MM apartment building that might have been worth $2MM. Plus even is you had a cash buyer for the commercial property, the due diligence will take much longer to complete (from what I've heard...again I have zero experience in this space to really know for sure)

    Of course many investors or investor groups would be interested in a commercial property with a much better cap rate than the other options in that market...so it probably ends up being six of one half a dozen of the other. 

    This is why they say no one real estate strategy is a fit for everyone?

  • Gino BarbaroPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · St Augustine, FL · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    @Scott Trench

    Hi Scott

    I think it comes down to limiting beliefs and what most investors are doing. Most people can relate to owning a home and are comfortable there. But once you start talking about a "complex", then fear and doubt set in. I totally agree with you that one 50 unit deal is probably as easy as buying a few SFH. The big properties are purchased on actual figures, not really comps, and this is where you can explode your wealth and create forced appreciation. Plus you can begin to assemble a good team quicker that can be supported by the property.

    I started with 25 units, thought that was daunting and I hit the jackpot.  We recently closed on 156 units, only 3 years lated because we realized the economies of scale and the fact that real estate is truly a business that should be purchased to generate a return and increase the value of a property.  I think most investors look short term to fix and flip and don't understand the power and worth of investing in real estate

    Gino

  • Shipping Container Sales, Infrequent Real Estate Investor · Van Buren, AR · Member since 2015 · 78 posts · 25 votes
    10y

    I think this thread offers up some great questions to ponder.  I am certainly not ready to play in this market, but it has certainly made me ask myself why. 

    I know each reason will be different for each investor and there is no "right" answer, but I wonder how much it has to do with deal availability and hedging your efforts. Seems to me there might just be more readily available SFR deals to look at and bid on than commercial. Also, I would like to know if it is worth the effort of going after 10 smaller deals versus 1 big one if the deal doesn't go through. If you spend 3 months working on 10 SFR and one or two don't make it to closing, then you still have something to show for your efforts. If you spend 3 months (probably longer) working on one big deal and it doesn't go to closing, then you are just out your time and money with zero part of the deal. Again, this is beyond my scope of knowledge and experience, but loved the thought provoking nature of the thread.

  • Wholesaler · Orlando, FL · Member since 2016 · 6 posts · 1 vote
    10y
    Originally posted by @Sarah Ziehr:

    The difference is financing. Much easier to get financing on a $100k property than it is on a $5M property. 

     Understatement of the year! But very accurate. :)

  • Real Estate Broker · Greer, SC · Member since 2013 · 548 posts · 271 votes
    10y

    When you don't make down payments, why what to buy more? 

  • Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 933 posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    Most folks have the wherewithal (mind set, financial means) to acquire a SFR. They get some PM experience, it works, repeat again. You come to some point where you may hesitate to continue to acquire as you start hitting natural barriers (i.e. your time / hassle factor so you outsource PM to become more passive; or banks not as excited that you are thinking of your 10th rental property, etc; or you want to leave your FT job but how will you get financing w/o a W2?).

    You love investing, read more, discover new niche like apts for instance, learn about 1031 exchanges, economies of scale, network at your local MF meetup, and low and behold a new world opens up. You learn about a new concept called forced appreciation, syndication, etc in this thing called apartments. You hear words like re-positioning, and how a $1 earned in NOI may increase the value of the property 8x to 10x. So, its not just scaling, its a whole new economic model that is far superior to owning the same # of units but in SFR form.

    If you become an expert in not just acquiring and re-positioning apartments but learn to use OPM and raise capital, you can syndicate which opens up another world of exponential opportunities.  If you want to cruise, become fully passive and invest in these experienced operator properties and go live your life.

  • Professional · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2014 · 876 posts · 301 votes
    10y

    I agree with all the advice you've been given in this thread. Regarding syndications, if you are an accredited investor, you can buy into $50-125M projects with as little as $100,000 and diversify for some added safety. Professionals with decades of experience and very impressive track records do all the heavy lifting for you. You get potential cash flow and appreciation. Loans are non-recourse. This is the world of Delaware Statutory Trusts. I wrote a book on this which was released in January called Cashing In Tax Free.

  • Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    People like to talk about deal counts because it feeds their ego.  It is the same thing as businesses talking about revenue instead of profits.  If you're trying to optimize for what sounds impressive instead of what actually is impressive this is a good approach.  

    Larger deals are harder because they generally require raising and organizing capital.  You could raise the money all on your own, but you generally will still run into problems getting the bank to finance things if you lack experience.  Thus people tend to work their way up to bigger projects.  

    Everyone's goals and needs are different.  For some a single family portfolio makes more sense than a single large asset.  For others the opposite is true.  Still others invest in notes, mobile home parks, or other asset types.  A lot has to do with your personal circumstances and your market.  

  • Investor · Jacksonville, FL · Member since 2016 · 97 posts · 90 votes
    10y

    @Scott Trench

    I agree 100% with @Gino Barbaro. I think it is just human nature to think small. Nothing against anyone who starts in SF or plans on staying in SF but I think it is 100% up to the individual. If you truly believe you can start in apartments straight our the gate, then go do it and don't listen to anyone who says you can't. If you don't believe you can do it, then you're right - you can't. I believe every person is endowed with the ability to go BIG but some of us just don't THINK we can do it. 

    Personally I have REALLY BIG goals and so unfortunately I don't have time to take the slow and steady path to reach them. That is why I am going straight into apartments with basically no REI experience. And I can tell you that two months ago when I started, that scared the crap out of me. But today I am more excited than I have ever been in my life (except for the birth of my two kids!) and I owe a lot of that to some great books I have read and some incredible people I have met (thanks to BP!).

    I'm no different than anyone else out there but I KNOW I can do this. I think if more people "knew" they could do it, they would be doing it too.

    THINK BIG...THINK BIGGER...THINK MASSIVELY!

  • Gino BarbaroPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · St Augustine, FL · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    @Hubert Washington

    You embody my mantra

    Thought=desire=massive action=result

    You have the first three nailed.  Only a matter of time before you nail number 4

    Your Bud

    Gino

  • Investor · Kitchener-Waterloo, Ontario · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    @Scott Trench Seeing as we are in the "Innovative Strategies" forum, I'd like to point out that not all of us that invest in SFRs fall into the "rent it" or "flip it" categories. Some of us finance them and make orders of magnitude greater cash flow per unit than our multi investor counterparts with virtually zero management.

  • Don KonipolBusiness Member
    Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    10y

    Commercial properties require a greater expertise than investing in sfr and also a different expertise. A SFR investor moving on to commercial properties not only needs to acquire new and additional knowledge, but is also taking on an increased risk while gaining the necessary experience with that particular property type.

    Investing in commercial real estate may also require the investor to move beyond his geographical area of knowledge, comfort and expertise. Most areas have SFR available as investments, many residential or rural areas do not contain many commercial opportunities.

    Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
  • Rental Property Investor · La Quinta, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 779 votes
    10y

         I too am confused about investors quoting the number of deals, properties, doors, etc. as a goal.  I am trying to keep the number of deals/properties/doors down, and attempt to maximize cashflow and cash-on-cash-returns (ideally without the complexity of a large number of deals).

         I think these investors think a certain number of properties is the method, in order to get to a desired cashflow or other financial metric, but they are doing themselves a disservice but not clearly articulating the desired financial metric first, and then later setting out the number of deals with minimum benchmarks as the potential method to get there.

  • Real Estate Agent · Jacksonville, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    I question the basic assumption that large projects are a profitable as small.  As the project gets bigger the cap rate falls.  If you look at an extreme example like a wall mart on a triple net lease, you would be lucky to be in the 5% annually range.  Granted it is not a like for like comparison, but it makes the point.  There are sfh that you can find cap rates in the 12-24 range.  They require more work, and exit strategy is better.  In a weak economy a sfh has the advantage of owner occupied or investor.  It can always be sold, the selling price may be low, but there is exit strategy.  A vacant commercial property in a weak economy may have no exit strategy since there are larger fixed costs and a limited market.  To plan for the long term one must also consider the down side risk and exit strategy.     

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Lesley Resnick:

    I question the basic assumption that large projects are a profitable as small.  As the project gets bigger the cap rate falls.  If you look at an extreme example like a wall mart on a triple net lease, you would be lucky to be in the 5% annually range.  Granted it is not a like for like comparison, but it makes the point.  There are sfh that you can find cap rates in the 12-24 range.  They require more work, and exit strategy is better.  In a weak economy a sfh has the advantage of owner occupied or investor.  It can always be sold, the selling price may be low, but there is exit strategy.  A vacant commercial property in a weak economy may have no exit strategy since there are larger fixed costs and a limited market.  To plan for the long term one must also consider the down side risk and exit strategy.     

     Lesley, your argument is flawed by thinking that cap rates measure profitability.  Do you really think the market pays MORE money for LESS profitable properties?  And LESS money for MORE profitable properties?  

  • Real Estate Agent · Jacksonville, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    The answer is it depends, risk is a big factor in pricing.  The wall mart is a low risk rental and they sign a 20 year lease, thus the pricing.  Buying in a war zone represents another level of risk and the market prices it accordingly.  It is almost impossible to compare 2 properties at any given moment.  However there are assumptions you can make about asset classes.  

  • Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Lesley Resnick:

    The answer is it depends, risk is a big factor in pricing.  The wall mart is a low risk rental and they sign a 20 year lease, thus the pricing.  Buying in a war zone represents another level of risk and the market prices it accordingly.  It is almost impossible to compare 2 properties at any given moment.  However there are assumptions you can make about asset classes.  

    EXACTLY!!!!!  Cap rates measure risk, not profitability.  That is my point.

  • Real Estate Investor · Abington, MA · Member since 2011 · 356 posts · 114 votes
    10y

    1. Ease of entry to real estate investing it is a good starting point for many

    2. Lower level of experience needed and a great place to learn real estate

    3. Easier to obtain financing and partnerships

    4. Stay with because they develop experience and systems around acquiring,  maintaining and liquidating SFRs.

    5. Easier to Liquidate a SFR than a 5M apartment building.

    The above are educated guesses on my part because I have yet to acquire 10 properties or a 5M apartment building but I felt like chiming in.  

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