"I'm not making money on my vacation rental...now what?"

"I'm not making money on my vacation rental...now what?"

Collin HaysBusiness Member
Property Manager · Gatlinburg, TN · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

I get calls to this affect from various people around the country about once a week now.  It is all a part of the downcycle of vacation rentals. 

I am strictly speaking from a macro perspective here - certainly there have been a number of good buys in the Smokies over the last two or three years.  But...aside from rare deals, most investors paid too much for their rentals in 2021 and 2022.  They bought them based on a multiple of 2021 or 2022 earnings.  Those were bubble years and were quite fun in some ways.

But as a more normal supply & demand returns to the Smokies, the returns on those bubble purchases aren't looking too good right now.  

What to do?  Two choices:  Grind it out or sell.  If you sell, there's a good chance that whoever buys your property will end up doing well, because they will be buying it at a more appropriate price.  In other words, you are probably going to sell your house at a big discount below what you paid.  You are going to lose money.  Whatever you've invested in the cabin is called "sunk cost."  You have spent the money and it's gone.  The fact that you paid too much is neither a reason to now sell, nor to hold on long term.  Sunk cost should never drive your investment decisions.  

In 2005, right before the financial crisis, I purchased my first cabin in the Smokies.  I paid $240K, and my neighbors thought I was nuts for giving that much.  I suppose that I was.  By 2010, the appraised value had dropped to $145K.  So on paper, I was down around 40 percent, and the monthly income was basically just paying the mortgage note.  Certainly no profit.

But I decided to hold it.  Why?  Because regardless of whether I paid too much, other people were going to be paying off the rest of the investment for me.  My cost was sunk, so why sell at a discount and permanently kiss that money goodbye?  Over the years, the income has steadily grown.  I started actually "making money" about 8 years in, and today, 2023, my guests have paid off the property, it grosses around $53K a year, and it's worth at least $500K.  

The moral of the story is, even a crappy investment can end up being quite a good one with some patience and a reality check.  

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Avery CarlBusiness Member
Real Estate Agent · USA · Member since 2016 · 909 posts · 1k+ votes
3y

Great advice. Too many people think STR is get rich quick. All real estate, even STR, is a long term play. Get rich slow.

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  • Avery CarlBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · USA · Member since 2016 · 909 posts · 1k+ votes
    3y

    Great advice. Too many people think STR is get rich quick. All real estate, even STR, is a long term play. Get rich slow.

  • Andrew SteffensBusiness Member
    Tampa, FL · Member since 2022 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    3y

    I think this is nationwide sentiment. People want to get into STR because they think they print money as they did in the previous few years. In reality STR's should be looked at as at best the returns of LTR with added flexibility to be used as a vacation property with the added value that these typically are better classed assets so will appreciate better.

  • Investor · Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 754 votes
    3y

    Patience is a virtue!

  • Michael BaumPro Member
    Olympia, WA · Member since 2016 · 8k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    3y

    Great post @Collin Hays. It's too bad that some got in at such a high price that they really couldn't afford the property unless it cash flowed well. Sometimes the only way to survive is to sell. Which is a bummer.

  • Rental Property Investor · Member since 2019 · 5 posts · 2 votes
    3y

    Great post, indeed! I stress that building wealth in real estate is a long-term strategy and you have to be prepared to rough it through the inevitable downturns. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Member since 2019 · 276 posts · 235 votes
    3y

    You need to post this on the many Facebook groups full of Smoky investors who are absolutely getting crushed. There’s almost a daily post in each group. They bought in 2021-2022 and are barely scraping by. March and April 2023 were break evens for them if they were lucky. It’s a real shame. 
    Also, most of the issues (probably 90% of them) come from people with 4+ bedroom cabins. Hope June, July, and October-December at least help them break even for the year. Many don’t think they’ll last that long. Guess we’ll see. 

  • SC · Member since 2020 · 66 posts · 42 votes
    3y

    @Collin H. Great advice! Real estate is a long term strategy for wealth building not a get rich quick scheme!

  • Realtor · Athens, GA · Member since 2023 · 201 posts · 104 votes
    3y

    Fast and easy money is a thing of the past for most investors. Back to the long game, where real wealth is built.

  • Member since 2023 · 4 posts · 11 votes
    3y

    On the way up i recall Gaitlin agents here kept saying buy buy buy.  Even when the numbers never penciled out.   It was just buy high sell higher mentality. YOLO....memes.

    Lesson dont put too much faith in Real Estate agents.  They have vested interests.

  • Real Estate Agent · Roswell, GA · Member since 2023 · 19 posts · 13 votes
    3y

    Yes, you are preaching!  Real estate investing is a long term play! Especially given all the uncertainty in today's market. Great post!

  • Cliff H.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Nashua, NH · Member since 2014 · 610 posts · 486 votes
    3y

    @Collin Hays thanks for sharing this. Part of the challenge of many STR investors who overpaid in the last couple years appears to have been driven by high profile STR dashboards and headlines showcasing unrealistic narratives and/or singularly focusing on gross over net income. In the STR space determining real vacancy or base pricing often ends up being a bit more complicated than pulling comps from area rentals in a traditional LTR rental market where tenants pay utilities and vacancy's often an assumed 10% of gross deduction.

    From the looks of your site, you've also controlled PM costs by building out your own PM practice and "renting" that service out to others, which is a great strategy. To flip this helpful thread around to present day, are there specific metrics or ground rules you would recommend to newer investors coming into the market today to avoid losing their shirts in this rapidly-moving market? 

    Appreciate your longer-term perspective and experience on the current downcycle, which feels like the elephant in the room that many in the media are either over or under estimating. 

  • Member since 2023 · 4 posts · 11 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Cliff H.:

    @Collin Hays thanks for sharing this. Part of the challenge of many STR investors who overpaid in the last couple years appears to have been driven by high profile STR dashboards and headlines showcasing unrealistic narratives and/or singularly focusing on gross over net income. In the STR space determining real vacancy or base pricing often ends up being a bit more complicated than pulling comps from area rentals in a traditional LTR rental market where tenants pay utilities and vacancy's often an assumed 10% of gross deduction.

    From the looks of your site, you've also controlled PM costs by building out your own PM practice and "renting" that service out to others, which is a great strategy. To flip this helpful thread around to present day, are there specific metrics or ground rules you would recommend to newer investors coming into the market today to avoid losing their shirts in this rapidly-moving market? 

    Appreciate your longer-term perspective and experience on the current downcycle, which feels like the elephant that many are either over or under estimating at present. 

     Buy at 50% of Peak values.   What? Major Cities like San Francisco are having fire sales on Huge Office Buildings.

    You say rapidly moving markets.  Where?  Moving down 2% is not moving rapidly.   If an investment house is a no go at $400,000 its probably still a no go at 2% less.

  • Collin HaysBusiness Member
    OP
    Property Manager · Gatlinburg, TN · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Cliff H.:

    @Collin Hays thanks for sharing this. Part of the challenge of many STR investors who overpaid in the last couple years appears to have been driven by high profile STR dashboards and headlines showcasing unrealistic narratives and/or singularly focusing on gross over net income. In the STR space determining real vacancy or base pricing often ends up being a bit more complicated than pulling comps from area rentals in a traditional LTR rental market where tenants pay utilities and vacancy's often an assumed 10% of gross deduction.

    From the looks of your site, you've also controlled PM costs by building out your own PM practice and "renting" that service out to others, which is a great strategy. To flip this helpful thread around to present day, are there specific metrics or ground rules you would recommend to newer investors coming into the market today to avoid losing their shirts in this rapidly-moving market? 

    Appreciate your longer-term perspective and experience on the current downcycle, which feels like the elephant in the room that many in the media are either over or under estimating. 

    Cliff, as the Smokies are the only area I've invested in over the last 18 years, my "ground rules" should probably be taken with a grain of salt except in that area. Furthermore, some of my rules might seem like an upside-down cake.  But here is what I've tried to stick with:

    1.  Buy something that offers a natural amenity that cannot be bought at Lowe's or the local game store.  An incredible mountain view, a location right near downtown Gatlinburg or Dollywood, a property on a fishable creek or river, or perhaps something that literally borders the National Park or Forest.  I call these "top shelf" finds.  They don't even have to be fancy.  

    2.  If you come across a top-shelf find - something in an area that is thinly traded - buy it, even if you have to give a premium.  You will be rewarded as the years go on.  I don't mind buying top shelf properties that initially might just rent enough to make the mortgage and utility payments.  Time is on my side with these.  Back in 2010, I gave 15X earnings for a dumpy cabin on the Roaring Fork in Gatlinburg, and immediately spent another $30K on it to get it right.  It burned in 2017 and I had to build another, but either the old property or current property would easily fetch $1 million or better today, and I probably wouldn't consider selling for under $1.5.  Its irreplaceable, and that's the type of property you are looking for.  

    3.  Don't buy if you need income from the property to make your car payment.  That won't end well.  Look at it as your crock pot fund of wealth.  You buy it, add to it, and let the years simmer the investment.  You will be quite happy in a decade.

  • Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    3y

    Paying too much and having low demand are two different problems.

    Travel and leisure and the economy in general is holding up fine at the moment; so, having low demand and cash flow problems already is really problematic as macro conditions can get much worse.

  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y

    At the end of the day, the price of real estate would just follow the money that's being printed by government, so *we are all good*.

    Rather than buying 100 Diet cokes in 2005, I agree , people should just buy *direct* real estate. Don't buy hotel though LOL.

  • Real Estate Agent · Smoky Mountains, TN · Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 984 votes
    3y

    I talk to investors with buyers remorse daily who are calling me to list their cabin. I usually uncover that they’re poorly self managing it. There’s value in having the property professionally managed. There’s also a huge disparity right now with those ‘top shelf’ properties getting the majority of the bookings. 

  • Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 153 posts · 104 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Leslie Anne Morris:

    I talk to investors with buyers remorse daily who are calling me to list their cabin. 

    Are they willing to take a loss on them or are they holding firm to the price they paid? 

  • Member since 2022 · 272 posts · 253 votes
    3y

    To me, this has less to do with timing, and much more due to false expectations. It was NEVER intended to be a get rich quick fix.


    I invest in stocks every year, not because I expect to make money every year, but because I know with almost certainty I’ll be better off for it in 10 years

  • Alexandra D.Pro Member
    New to Real Estate · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 29 posts · 8 votes
    3y
    As someone who is just getting started, this is great advice!! Thank you for sharing!
  • Property Manager · Raleigh/Durham NC · Member since 2015 · 210 posts · 293 votes
    3y

    For Comparison: 

    Assuming the OP put down 20% + closing costs totaling $50K here is what would have happened if he put that money in VTSAX instead.

    Assuming that you invested $50,000 in VTSAX on January 1, 2005, and did not make any additional contributions or withdrawals, your investment would be worth approximately $244,000 as of May 2, 2023. This calculation is based on historical performance data from Yahoo Finance, assuming that all dividends were reinvested. (ChatGPT).

  • Real Estate Agent · Smoky Mountains, TN · Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 984 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Nathan W.:
    Quote from @Leslie Anne Morris:

    I talk to investors with buyers remorse daily who are calling me to list their cabin. 

    Are they willing to take a loss on them or are they holding firm to the price they paid? 

    I’m coaching them not to sell. 
  • Leander TX · Member since 2020 · 179 posts · 150 votes
    3y

    I believe the buyer's remorse problem will get worse in the Smokies because new construction hasn't stopped.  Travel demand seems fine, but increased competition from all the new construction can only drive ADRs down.

    I'm with @Collin Hays though.  If your property has a great view or anything that can stand out from the competition, it will help.

  • Rental Property Investor · Franklin, TN · Member since 2019 · 160 posts · 125 votes
    3y

    Excellent analysis Collin. Good decision making. I would add, sometimes it's OK to sell at a (reasonable?) loss, esp if you've got other gains to off-set. CPA's are much smarter on those aspects. Best to check-in w/ them before choosing. 

  • Realtor · Gatlinburg · Member since 2020 · 1k+ posts · 957 votes
    3y

    I think the biggest thing for many is during Covid it was pushed so heavily by many on here that STR were a get rich quick model. Buy as many as you can with as little money invested for massive COC returns. Now some of those same people are saying it's a long term thing. @Collin Hays has always preached the same thing from the beginning even when the bubble was inflating, he’s been around through other business cycles to see what happens in the smokies when the music stops. Go through some historical posts from 2020 and 2021 and see all the pumpers talking about STR as a printing press with 10 percent vacation mortgages. I think I even made a post 2 years ago telling the pumpers to stop because this day was coming and people could get desperate and try to sue

    100 percent agree though if someone bought into a bubble and are barely getting by, I’d definitely not sell and take a loss. You will also be paying 8-9 percent in closing costs to sell as well, horrible decision. 

    I do believe that self managers will start to turn in the keys to competent local property managers as the paltry gains from doing self management will be better off with just breaking even to pay a PM to do it. I can’t imagine someone doing self management to make a few thousand a month unless they have a large portfolio of properties. 

  • Real Estate Broker · Tampa, FL · Member since 2020 · 103 posts · 74 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Leslie Anne Morris:

    I talk to investors with buyers remorse daily who are calling me to list their cabin. I usually uncover that they’re poorly self managing it. There’s value in having the property professionally managed. There’s also a huge disparity right now with those ‘top shelf’ properties getting the majority of the bookings. 


    YES! Investors can no longer put the bare minimum in properties for the STR space and management is key. The "top shelf" properties are still performing and I try to tell everyone that will listen to me to decorate and stage the property so it "pops" against the competition. The inventory is high in Tampa in the STR space and investors need to "bring it" to cash flow!

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