Another Amateur Landlord Loses Big

Nathan Gesner · 2021-10-31T05:53:43-07:00

https://mynorthwest.com/320840...This is another terrible situation, but it could have been avoided. Near the end of the article, a Landlord-Tenant Coordinator states this situation could qualify for an eviction if the Landlord would just find a qualified attorney. That shouldn't be hard to do in a city of this size.Some obvious mistakes I see from this Landlord:1. She doesn't know her state laws;2. She allowed the problem to fester for five years. I can guarantee that mess is not just from the last six months or even 12 months. This tenant has probably been trashing the property since the first 12 months but the Landlord kept accepting rent and hoping the problem would go away on its own;3. It's a common mistake for novices to wait until a problem exists before learning how to deal with it. Can you imagine a cop spending five years on the beat, confronting an armed criminal, and then deciding he needs to learn how to respond to armed criminals?Investing in real estate is a business. You will eventually fail - or at least lose some serious profit - if you fail to treat it as such. Don't wait for your tenant to stop paying before learning how to deal with an eviction. Don't wait until you need a property manager or attorney before you start looking for one. Prepare now! If I were in this Landlord's shoes, the Tenant would have likely been removed the first year and I wouldn't have dealt with four more years of headache or lost another year of rent income.Read some books. Study your law. Make a list of common problems, then work on developing your plan for dealing with them, to include step-by-step instructions, forms, etc.

Joe VilleneuvePro Member

Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes

4y

Here's one recommendation I always have for new (and experienced) Landlord (want-to-be's): BEFORE you have to evict someone, go to eviction court and watch what happens. Notice how little the landlord says, and needs to say, and should say. In other words, don't say anything but answer the judges questions...and the questions are always the same:

1 - Why?
2 - How long?
3 - How much?
4 - Do you have your paperwork?

Don't ramble, it irritates the judge to no end. Let the tenant do the rambling, and watch how the judge reacts to it.

Notice the difference between the landlords where this is their first eviction, to the veterans. Notice what mistakes the new landlord makes both in court and leading up this court date, and how each dresses. Notice what paperwork the experienced landlord brings, and how they answer each question, as opposed to how the new landlord does.

As Nathan says above. Be prepared BEFORE you need to evict.

27 Reply

Sean McKee

Rental Property Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 268 posts · 189 votes

4y

Good post. I think a lot of landlords, including myself, have been guilty of this to some extent at some point in our careers. Obviously this was an extreme case of letting stuff getting way out of hand. I think it's the fear of not wanting stir the pot. Some tenants cause problems, but not enough where you want to go through the headache of either finding a new one or take on the cost of an eviction.

It's not that you don't know what to do. You just don't want to deal with the costs associated of those actions and take the path of least resistance. At least you thought it was the easiest way forward until something else happens. By then it's too late and the tenant caused more damage than if you had acted earlier. It's not until then you learn the error of your ways and that you cost yourself more money, time, and stress.

I think COVID taught a lot of us the importance of tenant screening and not letting issues fester.

3 Reply

Marcus Auerbach

Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes

4y

Or hire a professional eviction service! They prepare the paperwork, schedule and attend court date and - maybe most importantly - it keeps you emotionally seperated!

I never had to evict anyone in more than a decade (and we operate a good size portfolio in Milwaukee). I have come close a few times, but we always worked it out with cash for keys.

I attribute this to two main resons: we buy in good areas and rent above the median, which attracts a different demographic segement less prone to evictions.

And second, we put a lot of time and effort into interviews and make decisions very carefully - our inhouse PM does initial showings and weeds out based on our criteria, but I do the second interview and background check. I believe that tenenats are the real assets, after all houses don't write checks. That's why selecting a tenant is as important to me as selecting a property to buy.

However, to Joe's point, I have never invested the time to learn evictions and I won't do it, but I am happy to pay for the service if I ever have to and get it done professionally.

PS: a great book is Mike Butler's Landlording on Autopilot - he's an ex-cop, very street smart.

7 Reply

Nathan GesnerBusiness Member

Moderator

OP

Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes

4y

On the rare occasion that a tenant actually shows up to defend themselves, they tend to dig their own hole. I typically present the lease agreement, the payment ledger, invoices of additional charges, and explain the entire situation in just a few minutes. The tenant usually rambles way too long, personally insults me, and makes excuses that are not justified or backed up by any evidence. It's a pretty simple process if you are prepared.

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7 Reply

Joe VilleneuvePro Member

Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes

4y

Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:

On the rare occasion that a tenant actually shows up to defend themselves, they tend to dig their own hole. I typically present the lease agreement, the payment ledger, invoices of additional charges, and explain the entire situation in just a few minutes. The tenant usually rambles way too long, personally insults me, and makes excuses that are not justified or backed up by any evidence. It's a pretty simple process if you are prepared.

Yep. I wasn't prepared the first time I had to evict someone. I got lucky, and showed up early, my name was called late, so I accidently got the benefit of what I described above. It was the best accident I ever had. I immediately recognized the new landlord (me) doing the "landlord two step", trying to convince the judge he wasn't a "typical landlord (I think he actually used those words)", and said he felt sorry for the tenant, and did some political posturing (that made the crowd laugh), and made the bailiff and judge look at eachother with these astonished looks. Then the judge looked at the landlord (in mid novel) and said, "the answer is a simple yes or no". The landlord said "yes, then started to explain. The judge just about castrated him at that point...and I crossed my legs, and made a mental note.

Best accident I ever had. I think I mentioned that already, but is was worth repeating.

7 Reply

Joe VilleneuvePro Member

Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes

4y

Originally posted by @Marcus Auerbach:

Or hire a professional eviction service! They prepare the paperwork, schedule and attend court date and - maybe most importantly - it keeps you emotionally seperated!

I never had to evict anyone in more than a decade (and we operate a good size portfolio in Milwaukee). I have come close a few times, but we always worked it out with cash for keys.

I attribute this to two main resons: we buy in good areas and rent above the median, which attracts a different demographic segement less prone to evictions.

And second, we put a lot of time and effort into interviews and make decisions very carefully - our inhouse PM does initial showings and weeds out based on our criteria, but I do the second interview and background check. I believe that tenenats are the real assets, after all houses don't write checks. That's why selecting a tenant is as important to me as selecting a property to buy.

However, to Joe's point, I have never invested the time to learn evictions and I won't do it, but I am happy to pay for the service if I ever have to and get it done professionally.

PS: a great book is Mike Butler's Landlording on Autopilot - he's an ex-cop, very street smart.

I failed to mention that now I have a service that does it for me. That story was meant for those just starting out.

2 Reply

Account Closed

Investor · Scottsdale Austin Tuktoyaktuk · Member since 2021 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes

4y

Originally posted by @Joe Villeneuve:

Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:

On the rare occasion that a tenant actually shows up to defend themselves, they tend to dig their own hole. I typically present the lease agreement, the payment ledger, invoices of additional charges, and explain the entire situation in just a few minutes. The tenant usually rambles way too long, personally insults me, and makes excuses that are not justified or backed up by any evidence. It's a pretty simple process if you are prepared.

Yep. I wasn't prepared the first time I had to evict someone. I got lucky, and showed up early, my name was called late, so I accidently got the benefit of what I described above. It was the best accident I ever had. I immediately recognized the new landlord (me) doing the "landlord two step", trying to convince the judge he wasn't a "typical landlord (I think he actually used those words)", and said he felt sorry for the tenant, and did some political posturing (that made the crowd laugh), and made the bailiff and judge look at eachother with these astonished looks. Then the judge looked at the landlord (in mid novel) and said, "the answer is a simple yes or no". The landlord said "yes, then started to explain. The judge just about castrated him at that point...and I crossed my legs, and made a mental note.

Best accident I ever had. I think I mentioned that already, but is was worth repeating.

I had my first eviction ever this last spring during the Covid moratorium. I hired an attorney (since the rental is in my LLC I can't legally represent my LLC in an evcition) I didn't even know that much. ;-)

Anyway, my attorney told me not to talk in court unless asked a question. His comment was that "you can only hurt your case by talking". His point was "let the paperwork speak for itself". The eviction went smoothly, I won a judgment and got my property during the Covid moratorium.

My advice is don't try evicting on your own. You will probably inadvertantly delay the process and have to start all over just because you missed a step and it could delay things for months.

2 Reply

Scott M.

Real Estate Broker · Rochester Hills, MI · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes

4y

Originally posted by @Joe Villeneuve:

I failed to mention that now I have a service that does it for me. That story was meant for those just starting out.

Service or no you should still go to court and watch it, that is excellent advice. It is not like it is on TV or the movies and the judges that hear eviction cases generally hear hundreds/thousands per year. It is a machine. It is really a computer just with a human instead of a processor. As Joe said same questions and the way to win is to be prepared and keep the drama out. The way to lose is to insert drama and long stories and the tenant did this and that etc.

3 Reply

Joe VilleneuvePro Member

Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes

4y

Originally posted by @Scott M.:

Originally posted by @Joe Villeneuve:

I failed to mention that now I have a service that does it for me. That story was meant for those just starting out.

Service or no you should still go to court and watch it, that is excellent advice. It is not like it is on TV or the movies and the judges that hear eviction cases generally hear hundreds/thousands per year. It is a machine. It is really a computer just with a human instead of a processor. As Joe said same questions and the way to win is to be prepared and keep the drama out. The way to lose is to insert drama and long stories and the tenant did this and that etc.

Wish I could vote more than once for this post

0 Reply

Mary M.

Rental Property Investor · Portland OR · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes

4y

I have to say that my biggest surprise reading BP is how little LLs know of their local laws - and how when someone posts asking "how do I handle X issue in X city" people from all over weigh in with clearly no idea of what the local laws are. Its pretty easy - you can not win any game if you dont know the rules.

This person, no matter how well meaning lost before she even started.... she did not arm herself with basic information and basic help in the form of an attorney on retainer..... Yeas Covid has created some really unfair situations for LLs but even so we still need to take the steps needed to play the game by the rules.... its the only hope we have.

5 Reply

Joseph Hammel

Rental Property Investor · Lake Hallie, WI · Member since 2015 · 292 posts · 144 votes

4y

I evicted a dude in Feb 2020. I really lucked out getting him out just before covid! He was there about 18 months, always late, lots of drama, and left a big mess like this.

0 Reply

Joseph Hammel

Rental Property Investor · Lake Hallie, WI · Member since 2015 · 292 posts · 144 votes

4y

The one time I had a tenant show they came in pj pants. The Judge kept it simple.

Judge. Do you owe this rent?

Tenant. Yes.

Judge. Do you have the money?

Tenant. No.

Judge. Then you have to leave.

4 Reply

William Coet

Lititz, PA · Member since 2013 · 595 posts · 272 votes

4y

@Joe Villeneuve

From your first post, can you elaborate on the difference in the way the newbie landlord dresses as compared to the experienced one in your area? I'm guessing there are regional and local differences to this as well.

1 Reply

Justin Sullivan

Real Estate Agent · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2019 · 158 posts · 140 votes

4y

@Nathan G.

Learning your local laws or having someone on retainer who knows them is huge! I Am not an attorney nor will I ever be so I call mine with questions.

There is a ton of loopholes in law and taxes. Hire someone who studies this daily and you’ll never go wrong. That person set themselves

Up for failure. Like many have already said this is a business snd should be ran as such. They just put there head in the sand hoping it would go away!!

0 Reply

Joe VilleneuvePro Member

Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes

4y

Originally posted by @William Coet:

@Joe Villeneuve

From your first post, can you elaborate on the difference in the way the newbie landlord dresses as compared to the experienced one in your area? I'm guessing there are regional and local differences to this as well.

You have to see it to understand it. Every area is a little different...sometimes a lot different.

0 Reply

Jay HinrichsBusiness Member

Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes

4y

Originally posted by @Marcus Auerbach:

Or hire a professional eviction service! They prepare the paperwork, schedule and attend court date and - maybe most importantly - it keeps you emotionally seperated!

I never had to evict anyone in more than a decade (and we operate a good size portfolio in Milwaukee). I have come close a few times, but we always worked it out with cash for keys.

I attribute this to two main resons: we buy in good areas and rent above the median, which attracts a different demographic segement less prone to evictions.

And second, we put a lot of time and effort into interviews and make decisions very carefully - our inhouse PM does initial showings and weeds out based on our criteria, but I do the second interview and background check. I believe that tenenats are the real assets, after all houses don't write checks. That's why selecting a tenant is as important to me as selecting a property to buy.

However, to Joe's point, I have never invested the time to learn evictions and I won't do it, but I am happy to pay for the service if I ever have to and get it done professionally.

PS: a great book is Mike Butler's Landlording on Autopilot - he's an ex-cop, very street smart.

when i had all my rentals in liberal Portlandia thats exactly what I did.. hired an eviction service.. first one i tried on my own I failed at it and had to redo.. so money well spent.

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Marcus Auerbach

Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes

4y

@Joe Villeneuve - I love the story! Normally I am a big fan of doing everything myself at least once (I have done a lot of rehab myself in the early years, was probably not a good use of my time, but still valuable experiences) because it gives you first hand experience and when you hire a pro, you know what you are talking about! I think this is most beneficial for property management - doing it yourself takes the mystery out of it and makes it much easier to talk to a PM. And you'll know when someone is trying to feed you BS...

And now you have me wonder how to dress right for court LOL

1 Reply

Drew SygitBusiness Member

Property Manager · Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2012 · 12k+ posts · 9k+ votes

4y

How come none of the DIY landlord stalwarts are posting responses here?

They all like to post how easy DIY property management is and some bash Property Management Companies, but the link shows what happens when you don't treat rentals like a business.

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Mary M.

Rental Property Investor · Portland OR · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes

4y

Originally posted by @Drew Sygit:

How come none of the DIY landlord stalwarts are posting responses here?

They all like to post how easy DIY property management is and some bash Property Management Companies, but the link shows what happens when you don't treat rentals like a business.

I did. There are some things you can do yourself , but you need to know where the line is. Legal matters are tricky and require professional help. I have an attorney on retainer. The most basic concept in business: know the rules of the game you are playing. While I know my local laws fairly well I happily pay my attorney when needed.

2 Reply

Dawn P.

Rental Property Investor · Sumter, SC · Member since 2015 · 334 posts · 531 votes

4y

Originally posted by @Drew Sygit:

How come none of the DIY landlord stalwarts are posting responses here?

They all like to post how easy DIY property management is and some bash Property Management Companies, but the link shows what happens when you don't treat rentals like a business.

Just because I manage my own properties doesn't mean I don't treat my rentals like a business. Part of managing is delegating tasks on occasion and I have a lawyer, roofer, plumber, etc. for the things I'm not comfortable doing on my own.

The person in the story above let things go on WAY too long.

2 Reply

Steve Vaughan

Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes

4y

Originally posted by @Drew Sygit:

How come none of the DIY landlord stalwarts are posting responses here?

They all like to post how easy DIY property management is and some bash Property Management Companies, but the link shows what happens when you don't treat rentals like a business.

Hey, it's still early over here in the Pacific time zone.

I read this story yesterday too so appreciate @Nathan G bringing it up.

It started with poor screening most likely, then piled up with not even making an effort to read the WA Landlord-tenant law free to all online, which s fairly simple to follow. No excuse for having no idea what the law is.

I only wish my glad she left summer 2020 non-payer committed so many open and obvious nuisance and destruction / illegal activity offenses. Those are pretty much always evictable for.

We aren't all helpless hacks with our head in the sand. I was glad to see a poor thing article from the left coast highlighting the plight of a landlord for a change, but she is not an example of how the bulk of us operate.

1 Reply

Scott Mac

Austin, TX · Member since 2019 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes

4y

This one looks like the Hoarder type = Lots of TRASH, old broken TV's and other Filthy JUNK the neighbors threw out on Trash day.

All dragged to their living space as "Valuable", but when they leave--it's no longer wanted and just left behind.

Typical seems to be a complete lack of orderliness. Nothing on shelves or sorted, just big piles of old broken (Other Peoples Garbage) dragged in and left to collect dust.

Other Similar Types (Maybe you have run into a few of these yourself):

Clothes all over the floor type. Usually with mattresses on the floor too, and a lot of fast food wrappers (similar to Hoarder just leaves everything when moves out).

Super Greasy cooking type. Kitchen walls and ceiling are a Fire Marshall's nightmare. Renter never cleans the walls or ceiling, just keeps cooking and cooking and cooking. (Moves out and questions cleaning fees, claiming the place was clean--no sorry, THAT is not clean).

Dead Junk Car on Blocks Type. Never to be fixed up just sit there like a modern art masterpiece on it's cement blocks (similar to Hoarder just leaves these "Valuable pieces of machinery" when moves out). Maybe the doors are gone, maybe the motor is gone, but all of the wheels are off and nowhere to be found.

They pay the rent, but live in a very messy manner.

It's just part of the business.

0 Reply

Joseph Hammel

Rental Property Investor · Lake Hallie, WI · Member since 2015 · 292 posts · 144 votes

4y

How about the "I ripped of a druglord type"? I had someone leave pretty much everything. Like they had to go now. Very sad because it was a family with 3-4 little kids.

1 Reply

Another Amateur Landlord Loses Big

Another Amateur Landlord Loses Big

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