2 Tenants in a Quadplex Joining Alliances: How would you handle??

[Cassidy Burns]

HI BP,

I've run into a little problem with 2 adopted tenants from an existing owner.  The first 8 months they were great, paid on time, no issues, etc.  As of the last 3 months they have been a nightmare.  One has definitely taken the power position and has gotten the other on their side.  Late of rent, pushing back on late fees (is it worth evicting over $50-60 in late fees), putting in a ton of maintenance requests that need to be done IMMEDIATELY (according to them), but then never respond with photos/ times of when the contractor can come in and/or don't want the contractor in while they aren't home.  One even called the old owner to ask questions about the building.  Very frustrating.

Self management has been great thus far, and quite frankly is necessary due to the lack of good property managers in the area. BUT THIS is really starting to frustrate me.  How would you handle this?

I would love to evict both of them as the building is very sought after and one of the nicer buildings in town so would lease up quickly.  

Any advice on how to get these guys back on track and/or if I should try to get them out and start fresh would be greatly appreciated.  

[Dale Nesmith]

@Cassidy Burns I agree that it is best to try to rid yourself of these tenants and move on and find your own good renters. Maybe start with the dominant one and move them out first and wait on the other one until you have filled the first unit. A couple of years ago, I bought a 3 unit property at the very end of August. On September 1st, I went over to introduce myself as the new owner and give contact info and collect rents. I was shocked to find that not one tenant had the rent. One was the previous owners grand daughter and said they had it in their agreement to pay about the 5th or 6th. The next one said the previous owner “ was working with her on paying the rent”. The third one had a husband who had bad health problems and was just down right nasty. Like I was wrong coming to collect rent. The first one stayed a few months and paid rent ok. Then they missed a rent and I texted them and questioned about the rent. They had moved out and claimed to have given me notice via text message 30 days prior. Their old lease allowed them to move wIth 30 days notIce. They had not texted me. The 2nd one, I sat down and broke down the rent for her and made a plan for her to pay the rent in biweekly installments to go with her pay to catch it up. She never made one payment and had to be evicted. On way to court she made two separate check deposits into my account to total one of the months rent. She made them just under the limit that when they bounced days later she couldn’t be charged with a crime. (That’s why she did two separate deposits.) I knew when her paydays were from trying to work out that payment plan. So I went to her bank on her payday and asked her bank if funds were in there. When they said yes, I quickly cashed them and grabbed the cash. The 3rd one stayed and finished their lease. She was always nasty and rude. They stopped up a toilet so bad it had to be removed. The worker found it plugged up with Qtips at the bottom. He didn’t want to dig it out and clean it out. I told him to throw it out and I made them pay for a new one. They were there til end of May but I let them know I wouldn’t be renewing their lease. By that time, I had repainted and improved the other units and rented them out again at hIgher rents. So, out of three units, I went court wIth two of them It’s much easier to deal with your own tenants you pick.

[Mike G.]

@Dennis M. Dennis took the words right out of my mouth on this one. Much more tactful and colorful with words of yuletide cheer gIven the season we are entering into. I’ll add one more to what Dennis said , to the original poster (can’t look back I’m on mobile) check your landlord laws there in Ohio and if the cards are in your favor give them a nice early Xmas gift. Slap a nice 5 day pay or quit on their door and say merry Xmas. Tenants like that deserve nothing less.

[Mary M.]

I would argue you never had control to lose it...  you have “hidden” behind subordinates that clearly dont feel they have the power to set and enforce the rules. 

I would, as the owner, have a nice talk. However you want to frame it - pay the lates fees, that are required as per the lease, or i will be forced to evict.   Give them x days to pay  if they dont then start the eviction process  

I would check tho as in some places i dont think you can evict for late fees alone  

[Mary M.]

Originally posted by @Richard Sherman:

.Ok.  I usually do not do this, but I am calling BS on some of these suggestions.    @Cassidy Burns listen, the bell is already rung, they ALREADY know that you own the property so you can not realistically get them to believe otherwise.  So your options are

1. Evict (non renewal) which comes with associated costs (fees and time if you have to evict, vacancy and turn costs.)

2. Drop the hammer on them.  I did not say cook them a meal  and serve them tea (@Thomas S.. ) 

It very well may turn out you need to evict them for being jackasses, BUT that is a cost.  This is NOT about winning, this is about running a business...and vacancy and turn costs are REAL costs.  Ego has zero place in this business and the idea that you should just evict anyone who is a hassle is total BS and very bad advice.  You get rid of people who cost you money or time, not so you can feel like a BOSS.  If you were my PM I would tell you to mount up, get tell them that if they do not toe the line they had best be looking for another place and every time they violate the lease you take appropriate action  which is spelled out in the lease.  There should NEVER be a conversation about IF a late fee is applied.  It is ALWAYS applies, I don't care if it is my 94 year old grandma THOSE ARE THE RULES READ THE LEASE I HAVE NO CHOICE :)

The idea that you can not change tenants and their behavior when they have been given too much wiggle room is incorrect.  Every building I buy has issues, I WANT issues, thats WHY i get a deal.  Some people get evicted but usually when the new rules are in place and they see they are enforced they get in line.    Or should I just blanket evict 20-30 units at a time because people have some sass?  Seriously...it is about money and costs not about ego.   Maybe when my kids dont clean their room I should get new kids too...or I could be a freaking adult and apply some rules.  :)   Ok, I will hand over my soap box.

 ^^^^^ one of the best posts on BP. Totally agree!!

[Mary M.]

Ok, so i did a quick google search.  If this rental is in DC you can NOT evict for late fees alone.  

A landlord cannot impose more than one late fee for one late payment. This is also a large departure from the accounting that most landlords currently employ, whereby a late fee is charged each month until the tenant reaches a zero balance. A landlordcannot evict a tenant on the basis of nonpayment of late fees.Jan 13, 2017

http://www.sokolowlaw.com/new-dc-late-fee-law/

So i guess you need to find a way to talk with your tenants and work it out. 

[Account Closed]

Originally posted by @Cassidy Burns:

HI BP,

I've run into a little problem with 2 adopted tenants from an existing owner.  The first 8 months they were great, paid on time, no issues, etc.  As of the last 3 months they have been a nightmare.  One has definitely taken the power position and has gotten the other on their side.  Late of rent, pushing back on late fees (is it worth evicting over $50-60 in late fees), putting in a ton of maintenance requests that need to be done IMMEDIATELY (according to them), but then never respond with photos/ times of when the contractor can come in and/or don't want the contractor in while they aren't home.  One even called the old owner to ask questions about the building.  Very frustrating.

Self management has been great thus far, and quite frankly is necessary due to the lack of good property managers in the area. BUT THIS is really starting to frustrate me.  How would you handle this?

I would love to evict both of them as the building is very sought after and one of the nicer buildings in town so would lease up quickly.  

Any advice on how to get these guys back on track and/or if I should try to get them out and start fresh would be greatly appreciated.  

 At the very least send them "Notice That You Will Not Be Renewing Their Leases" by Certified mail. That sends a very clear message. Follow your end of the Lease Agreement and stand strong.

[Russell Brazil]

As someone who has made the mistake in one of my units of carrying bad tenants for 7 years....evict. Take the short term pain of the eviction and vacancy and get rid of the headache.

Of course I dont practice what I preach or I would have followed through with evicting these crappy tenants I have years ago.

[Shadonna N.]

If the property is in DC you cannot evict on late fees alone.  You also cannot evict if it gets too cold, I think it is 40 degrees or less for x number of days.  There are good property managers in the DMV (we are not talking Baltimore).  My tenants don't know me I try to keep arms length.  I would pay the 8 - 10% for a property manager and review/amend the lease or put them on a new lease.  The lease should contain a clause that allows you to go in a property to do repairs with 72 hours notice and 24 hours for emergency.  Put a lock box on the property containing the keys.  Also make sure your lease is legit and cannot be thrown out (late fees are 5% of outstanding rent).  If there are repairs needed, you need to make them.  The property manager would be a third party keeping documentation of fees, repair requests,...  You may also want to look into getting a pest control service just to cover all bases.  The property manager should have software that allows you to track everything.  Once you have all that in place raise the rent to the max amount allowed for the area and at every opportunity.  Again make sure you are in line with the law (if DC, are you under rent control?).    If your two person team is not family, I don't know why you need a team to manage a 4 unit.  If you and your "team" are going over there and this is not what you normally do, they may see an opportunity to take advantage (fresh meat).  The damage is done, let a property management company take care of the problem, you can go back to self managing after the tenants are gone and you have new tenants.  The tenants may get back in line.  People will get away with what they can.  This is a business, know your strengths and hire your weaknesses.  PM me if you want the names of a few property managers.  Best of Luck.

[Shadonna N.]

Originally posted by @Account Closed:

 At the very least send them "Notice That You Will Not Be Renewing Their Leases" by Certified mail. That sends a very clear message. Follow your end of the Lease Agreement and stand strong.

If this is DC, there is no such thing as a Notice that the lease will not be renewed.  After the lease ends, you are on a month to month.  You can enter into a lease again.  There are only 11 reasons to remove a tenant, 8 are due to a tenant violation and 3 are owner initiated.

[Diana Duncan]

Originally posted by @Cassidy Burns:

HI BP,

I've run into a little problem with 2 adopted tenants from an existing owner.  The first 8 months they were great, paid on time, no issues, etc.  As of the last 3 months they have been a nightmare.  One has definitely taken the power position and has gotten the other on their side.  Late of rent, pushing back on late fees (is it worth evicting over $50-60 in late fees), putting in a ton of maintenance requests that need to be done IMMEDIATELY (according to them), but then never respond with photos/ times of when the contractor can come in and/or don't want the contractor in while they aren't home.  One even called the old owner to ask questions about the building.  Very frustrating.

Self management has been great thus far, and quite frankly is necessary due to the lack of good property managers in the area. BUT THIS is really starting to frustrate me.  How would you handle this?

I would love to evict both of them as the building is very sought after and one of the nicer buildings in town so would lease up quickly.  

@Cassidy Burns, I can see how this would be a frustrating dilemma. This is my two cents:

• Emotionally detach yourself from the situation; tenants are not your friends/family
• Use landlord and tenant law to remedy breaches to the lease; that's the only real weapon in your arsensal
• Tenants are obviously building a case to rebut any possession proceedings, so definitely deal with the repairs; ensure you correspond with them in writing and keep all records
• Familiarize yourself with the state/city/county requirements and check against the repairs they've asked for. Quote the relevant clauses in your correspondence for gaining access or to justify your refusal to carry out a particular repair job/request. This will increase your confidence and strengthen your position; tenants can't argue with the law
• Start action against the follower first, perhaps a couple of weeks apart; that tenant may then renege their allegiance with the ringleader

I'm curious to know whether you're aware of anything specific thing that may have triggered the non-compliance after a relatively long time.

All the best!

[Cassidy Burns]

Thank you again to everyone who is giving input, this has become a great thread.

The property is actually in SW Virginia , not the DMV.

[Robert Hamilton]

@Cassidy Burns There is a lot of good advice here. One thing I would suggest is that if you want to continue to manage your own properties, you may want some formal education as far as property management goes. Many moons ago, I owned a duplex and had similar issues with tenants until I joined my local apartment association. Once I joined, I took their CAM (Certified Apartment Manager) program. That was the best money and time I ever spent. Was it necessary? No, but it certainly saved me many lumps and cut my learning curve down quickly. They provided me with all the rental/leases forms and we went through all types of scenarios they one would run into as a property manager. This included the local tenant laws. After that, any issues I had with maintenance or late rents, I just pulled out my forms and posted them on their doors. Let's just say things changed after that. Eventually, I got rid of the nuisance tenants and was able to raise the rents through good management. Sold it a couple years later for a nice profit! 

[Patrick M.]

For the tenants on here saying “don’t you dare mess with these people!” I say forget it!

I live in the most tenant friendly state in the union and I vacated an entire 4-plex  of crappy, inherited tenants by papering them. I detailed every single infraction in formal notices to cease and to quit. Late rent, bad attitudes (harassment), failure to allow entry... I patrolled that building- everything. Then the text and voice messages began, oh what beauties! They were inserted into amended notices.

I never went into court, I never gave cash for keys (though as a green horn I probably would have). They surrendered and moved on.

You are playing a foolish, losing hand if you do not paper right away and continuesly! I have been here- trust me, it is tough but it transforms you as a landlord.

We have an entire anti-eviction statute! I removed them by staying on top of them and my asset.

It is absolutely irresponsible to tell you to sit down and have a “heart to heart” with these people. No more verbal- all paper! Start building your case, now.

[Mary M.]

@Patrick M. who are these tenants on this thread?   I own MF as do others that are suggesting telling the tenants what the lease stipulates and that they need to abide by the lease ( also know as a “heart to heart”). 

Only the OP know what is best for him, but the first thing he needs to do is get educated about the laws where his rental is located, then either start directly communicating with these tenants so either they get back in line ( the obvious best way as it costs less) or allow them to leave if they want.  

Eviction is costly and IMO should be avoided if possible 

[Joe Arida]

My lease says that late fees are applied to total payment BEFORE that months rent. I.e., $1500 rent + $100 late fees - $1500 payment = $100 of rent NOT PAID (therefore rent is still late and accruing daily late fees of $10 more). In that case, I also could 

When is their lease up? Either begin the eviction process immediately OR bide your time and try to train them until their lease is up, then don't renew. Even if you get them trained and they start behaving, you'll forever need to keep a very close watch on them and I would recommend not renewing their lease regardless.

No heart-to-heart recommended, that is a terrible way to go about something like this. You'll forever be stepped on by hem and it will be nothing more than a great opportunity for them to manipulate you you sap stories. Stick you your guns and serve them the pay or quit notice. What I would do:

• Document and prioritize (according to YOUR opinion) every maintenance request they make 
• Document EVERY SINGLE lack of response you get or your repair people encounter.
• Read over your lease two or three times and ensure you're following it to a T.
• Serve them the pay or quit notice and file for eviction. Detail every single lease violation you can find on them in detail.

Good luck, we're here for and rooting for you!

[Account Closed]

Originally posted by @Shadonna N.:

Originally posted by @Account Closed:

 At the very least send them "Notice That You Will Not Be Renewing Their Leases" by Certified mail. That sends a very clear message. Follow your end of the Lease Agreement and stand strong.

If this is DC, there is no such thing as a Notice that the lease will not be renewed.  After the lease ends, you are on a month to month.  You can enter into a lease again.  There are only 11 reasons to remove a tenant, 8 are due to a tenant violation and 3 are owner initiated.

 It doesn't matter that their is no "Official" notice. You are telling them not to expect to stick around. You have to take control, which appears to be lost in this situation, and let the tenants in on a dirty little secret, YOU own the property, not them. Or, forever have these battles. 

[Patrick M.]

@Mary M. if you are afraid of eviction then you have no business advising another landlord on how he should deal with problem tenants. There are many steps between written notice and eviction.

Your Mary Poppins “heart to hearts” are idiotic when a tenant, especially inherited, shows a disregard for the rules. He must conduct all future communications via paper and begin laying the ground work for eviction. I would also advise him to take his tenant to small claims court, if necessary, for the simple exercise of letting the tenant know that every move they make that does not conform with his rules will be painful.

You speak of eviction as though it is the only recourse, it is not. Papering them is extremely effective- and I have been through this before, successfully.

Having a MF does not disqualify you from giving horrific advice. “Have a heart to heart” my God- after they have not only thumbed there nose at the lease, but convinced another tenant to start trouble as well.

He needs to clean house, ASAP- and he can do it, stop telling him to live in fear of the laws and his tenants. He needs to assert his rights! I have already explained the downside of his past conduct, from now on- PAPER. Create a record and force the tenant to have to READ your version of violations, just as a court will.

“Heart to heart” ... idiotic

[Tchaka Owen]

@Cassidy Burns - Virginia is a relatively landlord-friendly state......it's my home state (Commonwealth) and it's where I still own my first home. This late-fee, start eviction, they pay and it's over crap doesn't fly. Forget the money, hire an eviction attorney and let them handle it. It sucks to come out of pocket but well worth it. I've evicted a number of tenants here in FL and while I appreciated the experience it taught, I stopped at a certain point and used an attorney afterwards. Your future will be much more pleasurable. 

[Danielle Smith]

@Jason DiClemente straight to the point advice. You have to have a process in pIace and this is it. If they are late, start the eviction process. You must be firm

[Corey Walz]

Everyone else is much wiser than I, but I would send them packing as soon as legally possible. Take a hit short-term for long-term gain. No room for negotiation. 

[Ned J.]

I don't have "heart to heart" meeting with these kind of tenants... I have "come to Jesus" meetings...... you either come to the Lord and get your act together or your soul is getting sent to hell.

Short term pain and cost of an eviction is well worth the long term payoff both $$ and headaches.

[Mary M.]

Lol!!!! 

@Patrick M. and others- 

 i guess you maybe missed the “ “ around my comment of “heart to heart” ? 

I will just make is clear that a “heart to heart” is meant as a euphamism for a hard core half halt (equestrian term) or maybe chain yank ,  that they need to follow the letter of the lease, choose to provide a 30 day notice, or partake in eviction proceedings. 

Now, because I prefer to be in control of every tenant interaction, i will structure my “heart to heart”, “half halt” ,  “chain yank” (or whatever you want to call it) to meet the energy of the tenant.   If they are just testing the waters, i handle it one way, if they truly dont care, that is handled differently...  

And no, :)  i am not afraid of much, including tenants, online bullies, evictions, or much else  

I am however, cognizant that this is a business and the goal is to make money  and since that is the goal everything i do focuses on how best to get there  YMMV 

[Jim Cummings]

@Patrick M.I wish you would stop "Sugar Coating" your posts on this topic! (:>)

[Patrick M.]

@Jim Cummings Oh yeah... This is my Susquehanna Hat Company. I went through this and when I see someone else in this position it all comes flooding back! I was completely unprepared for the tenants I inherited - but I got prepared. It would have been utterly devastating if I had been given bad advice... I am very  fortunate and  came out the other side better for it. This could be a make or break moment for Cassidy- I want him to be confident and succeed.

@Mary M. you are correct, I did "miss" the parentheses around your comment of heart to heart. In fact as I look back to your original post I again miss them, because they are not there!  @Cassidy Burns, this is a great example of why we paper and memorialize voicemails and text... Sooner or later a tenant is going to say "I never said that" or more to the point,  "I used air quotes when I said that," and we can hold them accountable, even though they will likely feel we are bullying them. And they HATE when they are confronted with it, drives them bananas. That is a euphemism for crazy (non-equestrian term).

Holding someone accountable for what they have said is not bullying- only a bad tenant would think that.

To the extent that I have offended "someone's" delicate sensibilities with my very blunt or forthright advice, it is just that- very blunt and forthright advice. You come out the other side of this Cassidy, you are going to be a rock star landlord!

[Mary M.]

@Patrick M. you are correct...   the first time i said it i did not use the quotes, as the words following "heart to heart"  explained exactly what i meant. Pretty clearly in fact.   Then, when i continued to use it as a euphemism for the entire sentence i had originally posted, i put quotes....   and sorry, no feelings hurt here.... i find this entire thing funny :) 

I will say that agree with you that having a paper or e-trail is critical.