How to deal with questionable and demanding tenants?

Question

Hi all,

We are having issue with our tenant and not sure how to deal with her. Late last week, she contacted us and stating that the upstairs toilet is leaking, through the floor and the bottom floor ceiling.

On Monday, we brought our contractor with us and went to check it out. What happened is the parts in the tank was either broken, stopped working or wore out and it would get stuck. So when they flush and let go quickly, it may get stuck and water would keep on filling the bowl and eventually overflow.

We had our contractor replace the part and the issue was supposedly fixed. However, we did ask the question, even though water keep on coming from the tank, it shouldn't overflow the toilet bowl. Then I think she kind of hinted that the toilet was kind of clogged.

On Tuesday, she contacted us again stating that because of the leak, the carpet upstairs has smell and it became bad. We went again after work and check it out with our contractor, and we all didn't smell anything, nor we feel wetness on the carpet; however, she disagreed.

Yesterday, she sent us email stating that carpet smell is getting worse and found two company to check and quoted how much to 'fix'. They said their equipment measured a lot of moisture under the carpet, in the floor and ceiling. the cheaper quote was 1700 to pull up the carpet, clean up the mold (if any). And the more expensive quote stating that all the carpet, floor, and ceiling needs to be replaced, I don't even want to know the price!

we had a lengthy conversation with our contractor tonight and discussed if the 'fix' is necessary. As far as we know, if the leak was only couple days, we can jsut let it dry and there shouldn't be any problem. Or, if the leak was happening for a LONG time, then it may get into the wood then we may have the problem.

Long story short (sorry, it's getting too long), we feel that the tenant just wants something happen, something to be fixed, even the three of us didn't smell anything the other night, but she disagreed and probably think there's moisture and mold under the carpet.

So, if the tenant caused the clog, or not, how do we prove it?

If they caused the clog, which caused the flooding and damages to the carpet/floor/ceiling, how do we approach this and prove this?

when is it landlord's responsibility? and when is it tenants'?

if she wants something to be checked, or fixed, or replaced, what and when is it necessary, and when is it not?

sorry for the long story, I need advice

thanks in advance

Leo M. · Answer

1st your lease should not permit the tenant to bring in contractors and quote repairs or perform repairs.   I do not allow my tenants to do any such thing...you want to keep control of your property, don't let her set the rules or rewrite the rules.

2nd, it may be hard at this point to prove if the toilet was clogged and if she was responsible given that there were some parts apparently broken.  I wouldn't worry about that now.   If possible, have your contractor or a carpet repair company check a small area so you can be sure your floor is not rotted and it was a small leak.  If that is all it was, then have that area of the carpet cleaned professionally and explain to the tenant that you understand her concerns and that the problem has been professionally handled.  Document of course with proper notices etc.

Further, if not in your lease, make an addendum that makes it clear that the tenant is responsible for clogged toilets she causes including carpet cleaning etc...put the burden back on her and her security deposit.

If otherwise she has been reasonable, takes care of the place, pays the rent etc then it should not be an issue going forward.

It can seem at times that tenant wants to cause problems ( and some do ) but not always the case.  Where they do you probably have other reasons to not want them their and they probably have other breaches of the lease and simply need to find a new home.

Hope that helps.

LM

Steve Babiak · Answer

Time to educate your tenant about how and when to use those things called shut-off valves. I usually do that at move in walk through ...

When water is (over)flowing out of control, the water source must be stopped ASAP.

Lynn McGeein · Answer

Are you saying that water was dripping from the toilet through the ceiling to the first floor carpet downstairs from the time she reported it last week until Monday when you checked it out?  Is it the only bathroom?  If water was dripping into the carpet all weekend, you might actually have some issues there, especially if it soaked the padding and sub floor.  And I doubt it would be considered her fault as she notified you last week, unless you turned the water to the toilet off immediately and told her not to use it until repaired, but she turned it back on without your permission.  As far as getting her own estimates, I believe many states have a process where a tenant would be allowed to do this if the landlord is not responding to their complaints, although it sounds like you were actually attempting to handle it, not just ignoring it, so likely that wouldn't apply.

Sam Leon · Answer

I am a bit confused. how is the leak causing the upstair carpet to smell?  Carpet in the bathroom or the toilet water spilled and seeped into the adjacent rooms?

A broken chain or flush lever or flush valve will cause the fill valve to continuously engage, unless you turn off the stop valve at the supply.  That would not have caused the toilet to overflow, there is an obstruction down there, has that been dealt with?  Or still there?  If the toilet was overflowing the blockage is inside the pathway of the toilet, because if it's further down in the pipe more than likely your tub or shower would be backing up before the toilet bowl overflows.  I would pull the toilet and extract the constricted object from the neck of the toilet and see if it's hers.  That should give you leverage.

As for the carpet I don't think you have a choice now but to at least take her seriously and test for moisture, find the worst possible spot, and pull up a small area and examine the carpet, as well as what's underneath.  Check the pad and make sure it's not soaked full of toilet water, then figure out a way to clean and disinfect.

If the tenant does not want to be stepping on carpet previously stained with poo poo water, there is not much you can do.  Either replace the flooring or terminate the lease.

Personally I don't use any carpet anywhere, primary residence or rental.

Kimberly H. · Answer

Women tend to have a better sense of smell. My mother had a really good sense of smell; not all people are equal in this. If she is complaining about this and doesn’t have a history of being a complainer, I would take it seriously. Given the fact that water got to a lower floor means there was a lot of water in there. It doesn’t take long for water to do a lot of damage. Going forward make sure your tenants understand shut off valves, both the ones by toilets and sinks and the main one to the house. You may want to purchase a dehumidifier as well to use in situations like this.

I would make sure you remediate the problem fully or other potential tenants are going to smell it as well. If she isn’t happy with how you feel it needs to be remediated, you may want to offer to allow her to break the lease and move out how @Bill S.  suggested.

Saul Escobar · Answer

Bruce, how did you deal with the water that overflowed?  (You mentioned fixing the leak, but not how you dealt with the water.)

If you do go with a restoration contactor, be advised that many would have you sign an assignment of benefits under insurance.  Be careful that the assignment is clearly limited to the work performed and not for the whole claim.  Believe it or not, these overbroad assignments have become a recurring problem.

Bill S. · Answer

@Bruce Lam there are a couple of things to consider. 1st contractors that deal with water damage for insurance companies see the world different from you and I. With insurance claims all dry wall that water soaks into gets removed. Then the rest of the structure gets dried out. They have moister meters and if they read too high it gets removed or dried out. It may even look and feel ok to you and I. Insurance companies want zero mold so they remove anything that might cause it. If your situation was addressed by a restoration contractor, I would expect the scope to look like what you described was given to your tenant. Can you get by with less? Yes, but now your tenants head is filled with the poo poo from the restoration contractor's they spoke with. It's going to be an uphill battle to convince them it's not necessary. Something to keep in mind. Insurance companies don't cover a slow leaks (you should have had it fixed before it cause damage) but they do cover one time events. So if the toilet was leaking over the course of a couple of weeks, they wouldn't pay but if you "fixed" the one issue and then it overflowed and caused damage they would cover that damage. If you have to file a claim keep all of that in mind when you explain the situation.

If it were me, I would offer the tenant a happy clause. "Your not happy so you have until the end of the week to move, and I will return your unused Aug rent and SD when I get the keys." They must sign my termination agreement. I give them 12 hours to accept or decline my offer in writing. Explain to them if they decide to stay you are not planning to do any work beyond what has been done. If they leave then you can get in and check it out better, if they stay then you make it clear they have decided that your solution is safe and acceptable to them.

Marcia Maynard · Answer

A carpet can soak up a lot of water in no time and it takes high powered extraction equipment to get it out, followed by powerful carpet blowers to dry it out.  If a carpet gets soaked, we call our professional carpet cleaning service because they have the truck mounted extraction equipment and fans and know how to lift the carpet to do the work right.

One time a pipe burst under a kitchen sink when a tenant was at work.  The water ran onto the kitchen floor and then into the living room carpet.  Upon discovering it, the tenant and her neighbor turned off the shut-off valves, swept water out the patio door, used a shop vac and many many many towels.  They thought they had it all taken care of.  They notified us right away too and I called our carpet cleaner, who showed up within 30 minutes.  He extracted 40 more gallons of water from the carpet.  We also had to redo some of the subfloor under in the living room.

About your situation.  It is not enough to just stop the leak.  If the carpet got wet, you need to lift it up and examine the condition of the carpet, pad and subfloor.  Someone told me females can sense odors better than males.  I believe it knowing how different my husband and I are when it comes to smelling things.

You should have a moisture meter in your tool kit and use it.  Also, was your contractor a qualified plumber?  Did he clear the drains when he fixed the toilet?  Can he attest that the root cause started with the tenant clogging the toilet?  How often do you do unit inspections?  What kind of instructions do you give tenants at move in?  Does your rental agreement sufficiently cover these situations?

Get back in there and do the job right.  It may cost you quite a bit.  Don't be surprised if you find old damage as well as recent damage.  If you find black mold taking root, clean it up right away.  Use proper technique to arrest it.  If the damage is extensive, consider a restoration service.  Also, find out if your insurance policy will cover the cost of mitigating and repairing the damage.

Lee Smith · Answer

Sounds like she is psychosomatically(sp?) convinced there is now a mold issue... It must have been a big poop clog that overflowed and grossed her out, and now has her convinced poop is everywhere.. hahahaIf she's a good tenant, and you want to keep her, I would do what Leo suggested and ask her if she will be agreeable to you having a professional carpet cleaner come out and clean the carpets. Maybe throw in a primer/sealer stain killer and repaint of the areas where there are now water stains.. Emphasize the stain killer portion of that product name to give her the warm fuzzies. You should be able to get a deal on carpet cleaning for under $100, and primer sealer and some paint will maybe cost you another $100(and that's probably high). If you're real good, you may be able to get her to pay half of it, since she did have the big overflow.Don't do anything until you make sure she is agreeable and will find closure in your remedies.. Explain to her that of course the device they used to check dampness would show high water content, the floors, etc just had water spilled on them. Explain to her how easy it is for contractors to prey on the "what if" scenarios, especially when they are spending other peoples money(yours in this case).

Steve Babiak · Answer

Yes, first thing is stop the problem so it does not get worse. After that they will have ample time to do as they please.

Isn't that just "common sense" (that is now less common)?

How to deal with questionable and demanding tenants?

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