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We only approve fixed dogs/cats. Are we supposed to exempt ESAs from this rule?
I have a young couple with a retriever puppy bombarding me with inquiries. I told them puppies and unfixed dogs would be a no-go for us. They said they don't plan on fixing the dog because they want to breed him (!!). Now they are saying they just registered the dog as ESA. Obviously, ESA letter (if legitimate) gets them around the dog age, but what about spaying/neutering? Is this legal of me to still require the ESA dog to be fixed?
You have to find a way to wiggle out of this one. I had an old roommate years ago that went to counseling with his girlfriend. My advice to him was that you don't go to counseling when you are dating. You break up.
Same story for tenants - if you have issues prior to move in and a lease being signed, you don't rent to them. It's not likely to all of the sudden get better after you enter into a binding legal contract and they move in to your property.
Quote from @Scott Mac:
This might help:
https://www.biggerpockets.com/blog/process-esa-letters
Good Luck!
Thanks, Scott, there is nothing there about what I'm looking for. I'm trying to understand if it's legal/ not legal to require for all dogs/cats to be fixed, including ESAs.
You may want to check on your city's or county's animal regulations for information. For example, in Las Vegas,
"Dogs, cats, ferrets, pet rabbits and potbellied pigs that enter the city for any purpose must be spayed or neutered by four months of age unless the owner has a current exemption." One of the exemptions would be having a valid breeder's license in the city. I doubt your tenant has one.
Also, in HUD ESA guidelines the Tenant must abide to any pet restriction or rule not affecting the ESA animal's ability to provide support - like county license, vaccinations, leash, waste clean-up rules, or spay/neuter regulation. You are probably ok with any reasonable rule especially if you can point to a HOA, county, state or even a the Humane Society guideline.
@Janice R. - thank you, this is helpful. I will look into that.
I would be a lot less worried about a non neutered dog vs am a non spayed one. If it was a female dog the puppies would be over the animal limit so that is a no go. Whenever someone has an esa I will of course allow them however I let them know up front that I use petscreening.com and they will verify the legitimacy of the letter and if comes back that they used one of the online services where you pay for the letter they are denied. I rarely have anyone with a fake one push past that. Has this person submitted an application because my qualifications are strict and a lot of time the person doesn’t meet the basics so the esa doesn’t even come into play.
So the puppy magically became an ESA when they were told they'd have to get him neutered?
Hopefully you have other, better qualified applicants to go with or can deny this couple on something else (credit, income) so you don't have to deal with their nonsense.
Quote from @Dawn P.:They said in their first inquiry they were getting a puppy. When I said no puppies, and never unfixed dogs, they stated they'd be registering him as ESA, and that they will not be neutering because they plan to breed him. Now they are writing back informing me that he's been registered as ESA.
So the puppy magically became an ESA when they were told they'd have to get him neutered?
Hopefully you have other, better qualified applicants to go with or can deny this couple on something else (credit, income) so you don't have to deal with their nonsense.
All the other criteria, at least based on their pre-screening responses, look passable. That's why I have to dig into my ability to require the dog to still be fixed, even if it's ESA.
In terms of other candidates, I have enough unqualified ones, so there is that.
Quote from @Mila F.:
I have a young couple with a retriever puppy bombarding me with inquiries. I told them puppies and unfixed dogs would be a no-go for us. They said they don't plan on fixing the dog because they want to breed him (!!). Now they are saying they just registered the dog as ESA. Obviously, ESA letter (if legitimate) gets them around the dog age, but what about spaying/neutering? Is this legal of me to still require the ESA dog to be fixed?
If you read the hud guidelines & local ordinances really carefully & integrate them into your lease agreement you'll find the barrier to ESA is higher than most people think.
I'll never forget the look on the dogs face after being fixed (he didn't think he was broken)
Quote from @Mila F.:
Quote from @Dawn P.:They said in their first inquiry they were getting a puppy. When I said no puppies, and never unfixed dogs, they stated they'd be registering him as ESA, and that they will not be neutering because they plan to breed him. Now they are writing back informing me that he's been registered as ESA.
So the puppy magically became an ESA when they were told they'd have to get him neutered?
Hopefully you have other, better qualified applicants to go with or can deny this couple on something else (credit, income) so you don't have to deal with their nonsense.
All the other criteria, at least based on their pre-screening responses, look passable. That's why I have to dig into my ability to require the dog to still be fixed, even if it's ESA.
In terms of other candidates, I have enough unqualified ones, so there is that.
That right there is enough of a red flag for me. Nope. Decline.
Quote from @Lisa Hammond:
Quote from @Mila F.:
Quote from @Dawn P.:They said in their first inquiry they were getting a puppy. When I said no puppies, and never unfixed dogs, they stated they'd be registering him as ESA, and that they will not be neutering because they plan to breed him. Now they are writing back informing me that he's been registered as ESA.
So the puppy magically became an ESA when they were told they'd have to get him neutered?
Hopefully you have other, better qualified applicants to go with or can deny this couple on something else (credit, income) so you don't have to deal with their nonsense.
All the other criteria, at least based on their pre-screening responses, look passable. That's why I have to dig into my ability to require the dog to still be fixed, even if it's ESA.
In terms of other candidates, I have enough unqualified ones, so there is that.That right there is enough of a red flag for me. Nope. Decline.
Same here, I see through them and know it's not my type of a tenant. And I cannot stand liars. However, their high income/credit scores are a problem. Until now their (unfixed) puppy has been a reason I didn't even schedule a showing for them, but now since they got an "ESA", it's a different situation.
Curious, can a legitimate ESA be kept with intent to breed? Just doesn't make sense.
I'd refer them to petscreening.com and let them sort out the ESA letter. My guess is they just went online and did it, and they do not meet the requirement for the letter.
Quote from @Mila F.:
Quote from @Lisa Hammond:
Quote from @Mila F.:
Quote from @Dawn P.:They said in their first inquiry they were getting a puppy. When I said no puppies, and never unfixed dogs, they stated they'd be registering him as ESA, and that they will not be neutering because they plan to breed him. Now they are writing back informing me that he's been registered as ESA.
So the puppy magically became an ESA when they were told they'd have to get him neutered?
Hopefully you have other, better qualified applicants to go with or can deny this couple on something else (credit, income) so you don't have to deal with their nonsense.
All the other criteria, at least based on their pre-screening responses, look passable. That's why I have to dig into my ability to require the dog to still be fixed, even if it's ESA.
In terms of other candidates, I have enough unqualified ones, so there is that.That right there is enough of a red flag for me. Nope. Decline.
Same here, I see through them and know it's not my type of a tenant. And I cannot stand liars. However, their high income/credit scores are a problem. Until now their (unfixed) puppy has been a reason I didn't even schedule a showing for them, but now since they got an "ESA", it's a different situation.
Curious, can a legitimate ESA be kept with intent to breed? Just doesn't make sense.
We have a long list of requirements and I've never once in all these years had someone meet every single one of them. I just email that list and notify them they I'm unable to accept their application because they didn't meet one or more of the following qualifications. I never ever discuss which one, no further discussion needed.
Quote from @Lisa Hammond:
Quote from @Mila F.:
Quote from @Lisa Hammond:
Quote from @Mila F.:
Quote from @Dawn P.:They said in their first inquiry they were getting a puppy. When I said no puppies, and never unfixed dogs, they stated they'd be registering him as ESA, and that they will not be neutering because they plan to breed him. Now they are writing back informing me that he's been registered as ESA.
So the puppy magically became an ESA when they were told they'd have to get him neutered?
Hopefully you have other, better qualified applicants to go with or can deny this couple on something else (credit, income) so you don't have to deal with their nonsense.
All the other criteria, at least based on their pre-screening responses, look passable. That's why I have to dig into my ability to require the dog to still be fixed, even if it's ESA.
In terms of other candidates, I have enough unqualified ones, so there is that.That right there is enough of a red flag for me. Nope. Decline.
Same here, I see through them and know it's not my type of a tenant. And I cannot stand liars. However, their high income/credit scores are a problem. Until now their (unfixed) puppy has been a reason I didn't even schedule a showing for them, but now since they got an "ESA", it's a different situation.
Curious, can a legitimate ESA be kept with intent to breed? Just doesn't make sense.
We have a long list of requirements and I've never once in all these years had someone meet every single one of them. I just email that list and notify them they I'm unable to accept their application because they didn't meet one or more of the following qualifications. I never ever discuss which one, no further discussion needed.
I feel my requirements are strict too, but maybe I'm missing something. Would it be too much to ask what yours are (via private messaging, of course)?
@Mila F. @Matt Devincenzo Matt is 100% right, they went online to some website to get a fake letter. Because there is no such thing as "Registering" an ESA animal! I also second Matt suggestion, you should signup for petscreening.com and let them sort this out.
I suppose you might argue that it cuts down on aggression (get yourself firm evidence from a vet for that) and cuts down on uncontrolled aggressive dogs (un-neutered) from coming around, but otherwise, why would you care whether the animal is fixed or not?
Quote from @John Clark:
One of the problems you may have is relevancy: How does spaying/neutering affect your property as a landlord?
I suppose you might argue that it cuts down on aggression (get yourself firm evidence from a vet for that) and cuts down on uncontrolled aggressive dogs (un-neutered) from coming around, but otherwise, why would you care whether the animal is fixed or not?
Aggression aside, intact dogs tend to urine-mark their territory, incl indoors. Really don't want pet-pissed walls at my houses.
#5 General Landlording & Rental Properties Contributor
- Investor
- Narragansett, RI
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#5 General Landlording & Rental Properties Contributor
- Investor
- Narragansett, RI
@Mila F. top of my least favorite tenant list, I suddenly need emotional support. Pets are property so they must meet all state and local regulations. Peta.org has a list of communities and some specific ordinances regarding spaying and neutering etc. Maybe your town has regulations. Your best bet is find a way to reject them for someone better. If it was a female you could probably let them know you disallow breeding as a business but since it is a male, no business impact.
Quote from @Tim Miller:
@Mila F. @Matt Devincenzo Matt is 100% right, they went online to some website to get a fake letter. Because there is no such thing as "Registering" an ESA animal! I also second Matt suggestion, you should signup for petscreening.com and let them sort this out.
I hate sites that won't give a price without going through Request A Demo. I've asked around and not only can I not get a price for petscreening.com I don't think we can "require" that tenants go through them?
Howdy!
Licensed therapist here, I write ESA and PSA letters for clients when it's appropriate. They cannot have an ESA letter prior to getting the dog and the dog needs to provide an actual service. So the letter should say something like "soandso dog provides support to my client by calming them when they are anxious...etc etc etc" they need to have a diagnosis that supports an ESA and the dog needs to be old enough to actually provide the service a brand new puppy does not provide services, they require services. The only exception I make for puppies is if it is an actual service animal providing a specific service (such as diabetes dogs, or guide dogs) that will be going through specialized training. Even then, I will write that they are a service animal IN TRAINING and not that they are an ESA. Fake ESA and PSA letters have done such a disservice to the world.
If they "registered" a dog as an ESA, they paid a fee to a fake site for a fake certification. It will be easy to spot.
As for requiring spay/neuter, an ESA does not need to be intact to perform their duties, and you cannot breed an ESA because that animal would not be available to perform their duties while they were off reproducing. If they want the animal to be available for breeding, they cannot "register" it as an ESA. You should never breed service animals.
All of that to come to this, I would not rent to these people. They are obviously lying to you...and I wouldn't rent to them...however, you can require that their dog be neutered IF you accept their ESA letter as valid. Other requirements you can have for their animal is that they be trained to perform whatever service they are performing for that person, be housebroken, not pose a threat to the security of others, not damage your property, and be licensed and vaccinated.
Disclaimer: My knowledge of this topic extends only to the states I live in or am licensed in.
Decline, red flags when they changed their story. Decline based on your screening criteria. They don’t have to know which criteria it was though.
Quote from @Rosalind Pistilli:
Howdy!
Licensed therapist here, I write ESA and PSA letters for clients when it's appropriate. They cannot have an ESA letter prior to getting the dog and the dog needs to provide an actual service. So the letter should say something like "soandso dog provides support to my client by calming them when they are anxious...etc etc etc" they need to have a diagnosis that supports an ESA and the dog needs to be old enough to actually provide the service a brand new puppy does not provide services, they require services. The only exception I make for puppies is if it is an actual service animal providing a specific service (such as diabetes dogs, or guide dogs) that will be going through specialized training. Even then, I will write that they are a service animal IN TRAINING and not that they are an ESA. Fake ESA and PSA letters have done such a disservice to the world.
If they "registered" a dog as an ESA, they paid a fee to a fake site for a fake certification. It will be easy to spot.
As for requiring spay/neuter, an ESA does not need to be intact to perform their duties, and you cannot breed an ESA because that animal would not be available to perform their duties while they were off reproducing. If they want the animal to be available for breeding, they cannot "register" it as an ESA. You should never breed service animals.
All of that to come to this, I would not rent to these people. They are obviously lying to you...and I wouldn't rent to them...however, you can require that their dog be neutered IF you accept their ESA letter as valid. Other requirements you can have for their animal is that they be trained to perform whatever service they are performing for that person, be housebroken, not pose a threat to the security of others, not damage your property, and be licensed and vaccinated.
Disclaimer: My knowledge of this topic extends only to the states I live in or am licensed in.
Thank you so much, this is very helpful!
Quote from @Lisa Hammond:
Quote from @Tim Miller:
@Mila F. @Matt Devincenzo Matt is 100% right, they went online to some website to get a fake letter. Because there is no such thing as "Registering" an ESA animal! I also second Matt suggestion, you should signup for petscreening.com and let them sort this out.
I hate sites that won't give a price without going through Request A Demo. I've asked around and not only can I not get a price for petscreening.com I don't think we can "require" that tenants go through them?
Petscreening is free for landlords, tenants pay a small fee per pet, and zero if they have an assistance animal. I require everyone to sign up, even if they don't have pets.
#2 General Real Estate Investing Contributor
- Realtor
- Boulder, CO
ESA puppy my ***, something needs to be done about this ESA loophole/ online ESA letter scam IMO. They’re going to breed it in your property now too?! Apparently all of their friends need ESA puppies too, lol.
Simple solution: Inform them that unfortunately you can’t accept ESA letters without being able to verify the validity of the letter by speaking with the local licensed mental health professional who prescribed them their ESA, so that you can verify that they have a legitimate disability requiring an ESA as well as that whoever prescribed it to them is a real licensed mental health professional who has an ongoing relationship with them beyond just receiving a one-time payment to “prescribe” the ESA. You are not allowed to ask the tenant for details about the disability itself, but you are able to verify the presence of one, and that it requires an ESA, and that whoever prescribed it is a real licensed professional with the appropriate credentials to legally prescribe ESAs. 100 bucks says they won’t reply if they got their letter online and don’t really have a disability requiring an ESA.
There's also a possibility that the ESA rules don't even apply to your property. For example the building may not fall under the rules of the FHA if it is owner-occupied with 4 units or less, if it's a single family home rented by the owner and you have less than 5 rentals, or if the property is operated by a religious organization or a private club. You also don't have to accept ESA's if you can prove that an animal will be a danger or a nuisance, or if doing so will cause you undo financial hardship. I find it's usually radio silence from prospective tenants like this when they are pressed on actually having a disability requiring an ESA.
Quote from @Lisa Hammond:It doesn't cost the landlord, all fees are paid by the either the tenant or the prospective tenant. The cost is as low as $20 per pet profile. If the tenant has an actual "Service Dog (animal)" they pay nothing.
Quote from @Tim Miller:
@Mila F. @Matt Devincenzo Matt is 100% right, they went online to some website to get a fake letter. Because there is no such thing as "Registering" an ESA animal! I also second Matt suggestion, you should signup for petscreening.com and let them sort this out.
I hate sites that won't give a price without going through Request A Demo. I've asked around and not only can I not get a price for petscreening.com I don't think we can "require" that tenants go through them?
"I don't think we can "require" that tenants go through them? " Really people?! You are operating a business and you don't know what you can legally do or not do? Either get a property manager to take over, hire a lawyer or get an education.
It literally took me less than 5 minutes to search the KS Attorney General website for any law saying you can't do this. Guess what? There is no law that say you can't. Just for good measure, I called the Kansas legal service, pretended to be a tenant that was being discriminated against. I had an ESA letter and the LL refused it and said I had to use petscreening.com. Guess what? The landlord can do this.