Not sure if this is the right place to put this question. I have a college town rental property and added an egress window to a basement bedroom- the additional bedroom is worth about $650/month so it's a no brainer. Morally, I'd never want a kid living in a room that he couldn't get out of if there was a fire, legally I'm certain I wouldn't want that either. Unfortunately I don't think safety come in to every landlord's mind, which brings me to my question. My son is living in a 3rd floor room of a college house (different campus than mine) and has two triangle shaped windows in his room, 28" x 28" so no where near the required egress area of 5.7 cu ft (although he could fit through them if he had a step stool to get to them). I'm fairly certain knowing what I know now that the landlord should not be renting that room out to tenants. Does anyone have any opinions on if something like this (as well as no emergency ladder to escape-although we ended up buying him one for our piece of mind) is grounds for breaking a lease? As a landlord, I'm not too interested in hurting a small business guy doing exactly what I'm doing. As a father, I'll do what I can to make sure my son lives in a safe place and isn't penalized financially for trying to attain that.
So let's back up a bit...a place of any sort that was built to the code at the time of construction may continue to be used for that function even if it no longer would meet minimum standards for today. That can be more or less critical when we're talking about code items like a home with little to no insulation vs. egress windows. While a to code egress may not exist, that doesn't mean the 'bedroom' can't be used, especially if it was permitted and built that way. Or more likely (an assumption based on location and typical age of the home style you describe) it was built before codes were a consideration but was still legally constructed as it is currently used.
So that said personally I'd likely stand firm on the fact that the property was rented as is and while 28"X28" may not be todays 'code' it by your own admission is sufficient for him to egress if needed. The minimum egress dimensions are I believe 24" tall and 20" wide, however it also needs 5.7 SF net clear. The 28" by 28" window meets both of these dimensions and is only ~3/4" shy of what is needed on both sides to meet the net clear standard...so it's very close especially if the age of the home is what I believe it may be.
If you really made an issue of it I may relent and let you go, but I'd most likely still impose lease break penalties etc. The reality is you should talk to your son and equip him to evaluate these things himself. Life is a risk and we all decide how big a risk to take. If this were any of my kids I'd point out the risk and tell them what I would consider in renting a place, and then I'd let them evaluate how they want to handle their life. If they stay through their lease fine so be it, if they break it and pay the fees also fine. In both scenarios though I'd impress upon them that they are responsible for entering into a lease, and they need to be responsible for exiting it however they decide to do that.
The concern you have for your child's safety trumps the empathy you may have for a fellow landlord.
Safety concerns should certainly be grounds for early lease termination; however be advised you may receive pushback from that landlord if the leaseholder (your son/you) viewed and accepted the property prior to executing the lease, thereby confirming it's habitability. Additionally, this is a third-floor room, rather than basement (where egress is required), so the laws/safety restrictions for above-grade dwellings may be different.
Assuming that it does not meet legal code in his area and they rented him that room specifically, he could probably break the lease as the room is not habitable. The question is what did they rent him? Did they rent 3 people a house and each assumed there was an individual bedroom or did they rent each person a specified bedroom?
Why not make an anonymous call to code enforcement? They will come out and if it is not a legal bedroom, and your son rented this specific room, he should be able to walk away from the lease. It's also possible the landlord is clueless and would add a window to bring it up to code if they knew.
As far as I can find in Ohio Egress codes, the window size requirement is the same as below ground, but if anyone knows differently that would be helpful. I'm really sure he's safe there because what are the odds of a bad fire and technically he can fit through that window, I'm just frustrated that this guy is renting that out to kids and obviously if something did happen I don't want my son (or anyone) somehow not making it out. We've added the ladder and moved some furniture so he can easily climb up to the window height for now. We're just concerned at the lack of concern by the landlord over this and some missing railings outside on a patio/porch. Safety does not seem to matter to this guy, which has me wondering what else he's skimped on.
Assuming that it does not meet legal code in his area and they rented him that room specifically, he could probably break the lease as the room is not habitable. The question is what did they rent him? Did they rent 3 people a house and each assumed there was an individual bedroom or did they rent each person a specified bedroom?
It was listed as a "5" bedroom house for my son and 4 friends. 2 rooms are an attic converted. It seems though that my son's room is the only one without real windows. I'll look at the lease and see if it says 5 inhabitants or 5 rooms. I suppose they could say it fits 5 people but someone should be sharing a room instead of using that 5th room as a bedroom. Unfortunately when we looked at it, this is just not something we considered. As I've bought something similar since I feel hyper aware of liabilities and safety concerns, but this is my son so my hyper awareness is justified to me.
I have a list of some safety concerns including railings that fell off after showing but before move in that remain laying in the yard 2 months later. My next step will be to address them with the landlord for the 3rd time, this time including the window. I'm not sure he cares much though so I'm preparing to back up my bluff if needed.
So let's back up a bit...a place of any sort that was built to the code at the time of construction may continue to be used for that function even if it no longer would meet minimum standards for today. That can be more or less critical when we're talking about code items like a home with little to no insulation vs. egress windows. While a to code egress may not exist, that doesn't mean the 'bedroom' can't be used, especially if it was permitted and built that way. Or more likely (an assumption based on location and typical age of the home style you describe) it was built before codes were a consideration but was still legally constructed as it is currently used.
So that said personally I'd likely stand firm on the fact that the property was rented as is and while 28"X28" may not be todays 'code' it by your own admission is sufficient for him to egress if needed. The minimum egress dimensions are I believe 24" tall and 20" wide, however it also needs 5.7 SF net clear. The 28" by 28" window meets both of these dimensions and is only ~3/4" shy of what is needed on both sides to meet the net clear standard...so it's very close especially if the age of the home is what I believe it may be.
If you really made an issue of it I may relent and let you go, but I'd most likely still impose lease break penalties etc. The reality is you should talk to your son and equip him to evaluate these things himself. Life is a risk and we all decide how big a risk to take. If this were any of my kids I'd point out the risk and tell them what I would consider in renting a place, and then I'd let them evaluate how they want to handle their life. If they stay through their lease fine so be it, if they break it and pay the fees also fine. In both scenarios though I'd impress upon them that they are responsible for entering into a lease, and they need to be responsible for exiting it however they decide to do that.
Let's start with this: "Finished basement project must incorporate an Egress window if any portion of the space will be used as a bedroom." (End). To expect someone in an emergency to have to climb a ladder and squeeze to safety is not an option. It's simply not a legal rental as you've described it. I would be concerned for your son - as well as the owner for putting himself in that position. You have grounds to break the lease and the landlord will most likely put up a fight which can easily be remedied by giving him options: break the lease without penalty or code enforcement can be asked to determine if the egress is acceptable. He'll take a pass on code enforcement - especially since, "while there at the property," they'll take a look at the whole place.
It never seems urgent or important to act until something goes wrong. Don't wait for that...it will be a great education for your son and the landlord. Thanks for reminding us that "Dad knows best."
e fact that the property was rented as is and while 28"X28" may not be todays 'code' it by your own admission is sufficient for him to egress if needed. The minimum egress dimensions are I believe 24" tall and 20" wide, however it also needs 5.7 SF net clear. The 28" by 28" window meets both of these dimensions and is only ~3/4" shy of what is needed on both sides to meet the net clear standard...so it's very close especially if the age of the home is what I believe it may be.
The home is probably 100+ years old, although the attic conversion is decidedly newer. I'll do some more research about code in that case. Also I'll mention that the 28x28 window is a triangle shaped window, so we're talking about half of the clear space that you calculated (2.7ish cu ft). Certainly there are lessons to be learned here, but absolutely not at the expense of a life (worst case scenario, never going to happen, but that's why those codes exist now). Ultimate goal is to get the owner to do something about it and move on staying there with his buddies. Having some teeth behind the demand is my goal here with this post.
It never seems urgent or important to act until something goes wrong. Don't wait for that...it will be a great education for your son and the landlord. Thanks for reminding us that "Dad knows best."
This is "mom knows best" here. She's a bulldog for our children. I just bought him a ladder and moved his furniture to give him an easy way out. She's ready to go up there with a sawzall to make a bigger window if needed.
This really depends on the type of building. If it's a legal dormitory, then no egress window would be required. The legal exits through compliant staircases contained in fire protected stairwells with firewalls and fire doors etc. My daughter lived on the 7th story of a dormitory with no operable windows. (Who would jump from the 7th story?)
If this is more like a converted frame dwelling where a bedroom was added to an attic, then that's another matter. However, the building code is not retroactive. Meaning that if the bedroom met the code at the time it was legally added, then it stays legal, essentially forever.
Another sentence in the code states that the window sill must be 44" or less to the floor. It sounds like this window must be higher than that.
(The code mandated size for the window has more to do with a fireman fully suited up and with a tank on his/her back gaining entrance, and less to do with a resident getting out. At least that's my understanding.)
[2] You house other peoples kids, while other people house your kids--why not call the owner and discuss this, maybe he/she is a don't wanter, and you can fix the situation, and save on the rent.
It sounds like these triangular windows do not meet current egress window requirements, but that might not matter because the property may have been built before these requirements existed, meaning it is "grandfathered in" and also the egress requirements that have been discussed here so far are for basements, 1st and 2nd stories while you mentioned this is the 3rd story.
If the building was built prior to 1950, there were very few window egress requirements back then. It wasn't until the 1970's that minimum size for an egress window became 5 square feet and it wasn't until 1983 that 5.7 became the requirement for basements and 2nd story windows. If a building was built prior to these requirements, an owner is not typically required to add egress windows to an existing bedroom. One exception is when a remodel occurs during which structural changes are made to the wall containing the window, in which case the addition of a qualifying egress window or door will almost always be required. If the room is remodeled but without structural changes to the wall that holds the window, you typically do not have to enlarge the existing window to meet contemporary building codes. Same goes for simply replacing the windows in the building, it is not usually required to increase the size of the openings to current IRC. This is to avoid discouraging people from replacing older, less efficient windows with new more efficient ones.
The requirements that have been mentioned thus far relate to current IRC which is minimum width no less than 20", minimum height no less than 20", no less than 5 square feet area in a first floor "grade level", or 5.7ft2 area 2nd story or basement (these are "clear opening" measurements which is the area that is unobstructed when the window is fully open/ the area that a human can pass through, not overall window dimensions btw). Also the distance from the floor to the bottom of the clear opening may not exceed 44 inches. But again this is just for basement, 1st and 2nd floor windows.
Third floor windows are different because a jump from a 3rd story can be deadly without the use of a staircase/fire escape. There is more variation between local codes for 3rd story bedrooms, with different requirements if it's considered a "habitable attic" in a single family residence, a loft, or if it's considered a multifamily building. Typically what I've seen is a bedroom on a 3rd story requires 2 means of egress with one being an interior staircase leading to multiple means of egress in other parts of the building, and the other being an exterior staircase or fire escape type situation. Also I believe in some places you can get around needing a second egress on the 3rd story if there are fire sprinklers and a smoke detector, so it will depend on local code. Once you get into 4 story buildings the requirements become more standard again (IBC instead of IRC).
The place to go to find out would be the local building department. What happens next depends on them and how they operate but generally if you were to bring something like this to the attention of code compliance, and they determine it is indeed an unsafe situation that was not built to what the code was at the time, then they would probably give the landlord a certain amount of time to correct it. If by that time the owner did not remedy the situation, they would post the building as uninhabitable in its current state. Your son and his buddies would have to vacate the premise. Code compliance doesn't usually have a method to force an owner to make repairs, but they can keep the property from being occupied. They would not get involved in the lease/legality/financial side of things between the landlord and tenant, just the habitability and code compliance part.
I disagree with the others. Your son had an opportunity to inspect before renting. He agreed to rent it. He should fulfill his obligation instead of looking for an excuse to back out.
I bet dollars to donuts your son didn't care about the window and would have never thought of it until his "helicopter parent" starts questioning the size of egress windows.
0.25% (1/4 of one percent) of all homes in America will catch fire next year. Out of those 350,000 fires, 1,600 people will die, which is 0.5% of all house fires. Instead of instilling fear in your son over such a low risk, buy him a step ladder and teach him the importance of calculated risk, "caveat emptor", and the responsibility to honor contracts. That will serve him better in life than making him afraid of something with almost no risk.
I disagree with the others. Your son had an opportunity to inspect before renting. He agreed to rent it. He should fulfill his obligation instead of looking for an excuse to back out.
I bet dollars to donuts your son didn't care about the window and would have never thought of it until his "helicopter parent" starts questioning the size of egress windows.
0.25% (1/4 of one percent) of all homes in America will catch fire next year. Out of those 350,000 fires, 1,600 people will die, which is 0.5% of all house fires. Instead of instilling fear in your son over such a low risk, buy him a step ladder and teach him the importance of calculated risk, "caveat emptor", and the responsibility to honor contracts. That will serve him better in life than making him afraid of something with almost no risk.
You're right man. Let 'em burn if he's one of the unlucky 0.25%. I've got 4 other kids anyway.
I disagree with the others. Your son had an opportunity to inspect before renting. He agreed to rent it. He should fulfill his obligation instead of looking for an excuse to back out.
I bet dollars to donuts your son didn't care about the window and would have never thought of it until his "helicopter parent" starts questioning the size of egress windows.
0.25% (1/4 of one percent) of all homes in America will catch fire next year. Out of those 350,000 fires, 1,600 people will die, which is 0.5% of all house fires. Instead of instilling fear in your son over such a low risk, buy him a step ladder and teach him the importance of calculated risk, "caveat emptor", and the responsibility to honor contracts. That will serve him better in life than making him afraid of something with almost no risk.
Give a man a fish--teach a man to fish.....Great Response Nathan!
I think you might be missing that point Jeremy, look at the females who also up-voted Nathan's post, they are there too.
But if the place really is a fire trap, you should move him out, you can't learn much from smoke inhalation, or 2nd degree burns (other than how to pay hospital bills).
I appreciate all of the responses. While I don't think it reasonable at all to expect a 19 year old to understand fire safety code, he's certainly learning it now. I've come at this as a parent, not a landlord (although I am one). I'd say talking about potential life or death safety is not helicopter parenting, but instinctual for any decent parent. There's no lessons to be learned from dying in a fire or suffering burns, however small the chance. I rent to college students and while it hasn't happened yet, I expect down the road a parent will come at me with safety concerns. I totally think it's my job to appease that, within reason. My son is actually a partial owner in the property we have (a minor stake, I wouldn't let him do much until he is out of school with a job). He'll learn from this and it'll help him see that when you're a lousy landlord, your tenants start noticing every defect and judging every slow response. I'll take note of the valuable advice some of you have given and we'll decide how to proceed. Thanks again!
[2] You house other peoples kids, while other people house your kids--why not call the owner and discuss this, maybe he/she is a don't wanter, and you can fix the situation, and save on the rent.
[3] What is your boy studying (???)
Good Luck!
Unfortunately it's a different campus, he will be moving to the other campus next fall so he'll be in my rental then. He's studying personal finance, with the goal of using that to fund his real estate empire. Wouldn't be surprised if he's already registered here and reads all the posts. He's intelligent, extremely well read, but the real world is gonna knock him down a few times before he sees that it's not as easy as the podcasters make it sound. The goal is to get him out of college with enough money to not have to move back home. Thankfully he's a hard worker and a penny pincher so he's well on his way.
90% of all humans die of old age. You are teaching your son to be unreasonably fearful. There's a higher likelihood of dying in a car accident, but I bet you still let him drive.
