Real estate investing to reduce W2 income

Real estate investing to reduce W2 income

Member since 2019 · 5 posts · 3 votes

I'd like to get feedback on a strategy I want to pursue. I work in Silicon Valley and make well into the maximum tax bracket. I wanted to pursue REI both as a way to invest extra money (already maxed all other tax advantages accounts) and a way to further reduce my tax burden.

My understanding is that if my spouse (not employed) becomes an RE professional, and if we perform a cost segregation study on a purchase, we can deduct approximately ~25% of the purchase price from my W2. This would only work on Federal tax, not FICA or California tax as the state does not participate, but it is still 37%, and may be more in the years to come.

The strategy would be something like this:

year 1: buy multifamily for ~$1M, cost segregate, deduct

year 2: buy multifamily for ~$1M, cost segregate, deduct

year 3: buy multifamily for ~$1M, cost segregate, deduct

.

.

.

stop at some point and enjoy having cash flow + $100k of cash savings a year due to reduced taxes.

Spouse is onboard and would do most of the work buying these properties, and managing them if they are reasonably local.

Exit strategy would be don’t exit. Keep the assets for my kids and take advantage of stepped up basis, or at least sell a long time from now at a highly reduced tax burden due to inflation.

Is anyone doing this? Any pitfalls to this strategy to watch out for?

The other question is location. My father lives in Sacramento and is a general contractor. So the reasonable choices I see are:

  1. Bay area: Close and easy to manage, cash flow negative and speculative, non-diversified from our assets and my job.
  2. Sacramento area: Cash flow neutral-ish, have a trusted person to help in rehab if needed as part of BRRRR, too far to property manage for spouse to get RE professional hours? (that's is question)
  3. Out of state somewhere: good cash flow, but need to setup a whole team, but could spouse still qualify as RE professional?

What would you do in my situation? Thanks.

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Michael PlaksPro Member
Tax Accountant / Enrolled Agent · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
6y

@Karl S.

While your overall plan makes sense and is being used by many investors, I'm not sure if you fully understand an important point brought up by @Yonah Weiss. It does not change the concept, but it does change the numbers in your projections.

Specifically, cost segregation does not have its own separate tax deduction. It is thrown into that one big pot where all your RE income and expenses are. If your taxable income was exactly equal to your deductible expenses (including the "normal" slow depreciation) - then cost segregation creates a loss. If your taxable income exceeded your deductible expenses, then the additional depreciation from cost segregation offsets this income first, and the loss is whatever is left.

What is important to remember here is that accelerated depreciation from cost segregation eats into the full amount (tax basis) available for depreciation, so in the future years you will actually have LESS depreciation than you would've had without cost segregation. This can create net positive taxable income in the future years, where otherwise it would have been a loss.

Further, all properties are combined for the final tax liability. If you cost seg Property A in 2020 for a massive write-off, this property may end up with net income in 2021. If in 2021 you buy Property B and repeat the drill, the tax deductions from Property B will have to offset income from Property A before they can create an overall loss.

This does not make your plan bad, but it may factor into calculating how much in actual savings you can squeeze out of it.

Also, you used the term "cash flow" when comparing your target areas. Do not forget that cash flow is not the same as taxable income/loss. Many types of cash expenditures do not become a matching tax deduction. For example, property search and acquisition costs, costs of obtaining funding, principal payments towards mortgage, property improvements that have to be capitalized, etc.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Lance LvovskyPro Member
    Accountant · Fort Lauderdale, FL · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 753 votes
    6y

    It is certainly an option and when executed correctly, substantial tax savings can be had. You should be mindful of the requirements to the real estate professional election, material participation rules, etc. Your CPA can further advise you. You also want to make sure the correct entity type (if applicable) is setup.

  • Lee RipmaPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Prairie Village, KS · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    @Karl S.

    I agree with @Lance Lvovsky. Make sure you qualify and set everything up correctly.

    A high income earner and a real estate professional are a match made in heaven. You can do what you are talking about.

    One thing to think about is that land is more valuable in CA so less to depreciate on your cost seg.

    I develop in LA which is a great way to maximize your cost seg losses. So maybe you could do some construction with you dad? I think all of your options are good. Maybe shoot for at least breaking even even if you have upside.

  • Rental Property Investor · Newport News, VA · Member since 2018 · 264 posts · 130 votes
    6y

    @Karl S.

    If one of you qualifies as a real estate professional, the "losses" can run into your earned income. You don't need to operate the deal to benefit from the taxes. Our investors are limited partners for an apartment complex we closed on in July 2020 and will benefit from the cost seg.

    Another option is to build relationships with syndicators out of state who have the team in place. This way you develop a relationship, invest in their deal and receive the full benefits of owning real estate (cash flow, forced appreciation, and a tax sheltering asset) without the day to day hassle of tenants, toilets or managing the property manager.

    Best,

  • Yonah WeissPro Member
    Cost Segregation Expert and Investor · Lakewood, NJ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    @Karl S. You certainly have a sound plan, but as stated above, make sure your wife can qualify as a REP @Brandon Hall just wrote a very detailed free E-book about the subject.

    One detail I will correct, is that the extra depreciation created by a cost segregation study, first goes to offset your rental property income, and any remaining passive losses can then be used against your W2.

    It's a good plan, and I see many people doing the same. Good luck! 

  • Real Estate Agent · Folsom, CA · Member since 2018 · 14 posts · 7 votes
    6y

    Sounds like you have done your research! Have you read the book Tax Free Wealth? If not I would recommend it. Key word is losses. I’m not a CPA but if you break even or make a profit you are not taking a loss. In addition, there is a minimum number of hours per year to qualify as a real estate professional. I’d say the quickest someone can get their CA RE license is about 6 weeks for the classes plus at least 8 weeks waiting for the state DRE to give you a testing date.

    Again, I’m not a CPA but expedited depreciation schedule means you run out of tax advantage faster. You will want to consider the 1031 method as an exit strategy.

  • Attorney and CPA · San Diego, CA · Member since 2017 · 590 posts · 422 votes
    6y

    @Karl S.

    Couple of things to add as food for thought: you may want to look into how hiring your spouse affects your Section 199A pass-through deduction, if you qualify.  Higher income taxpayers are subject to a W-2 or capital test that limits the 199A deduction.

    You also may want to look into an S-corporation and the pros/cons to that.  Could possibly save yourself some self-employment tax with an S-corp, though it has other downsides.  Also note that S-corps in CA are subject to a 1.5% entity level tax and the $800 minimum annual tax which is different from most states.

    *This post does not create an attorney-client or CPA-client relationship.  The information contained in this post is not to be relied upon.  Readers are advised to seek professional advice.

  • Member since 2019 · 5 posts · 3 votes
    6y

    Thank you all for your replies. One question I wanted to ask the group is what would be reasonable load to qualify for RE professional. My spouse could manage my parent's properties (there are 3 in bay area) plus whatever we buy. I imagine if its not local it would be hard to justify the hours, unless there's a trick I don't know about.

    @Lee Ripma I checked and in Sacramento area seems land is about 20% of value, so still reasonable to get decent depreciation. My house in bay area is >80% value in land, but that's on the high side, I think in some areas its possible to get at least 60% house value, but still not great for depreciation. 

    @Jesse Daconta Interesting, but I thought the RE professional has to spend at least 100 hours and more time than anyone else on the business, so syndicates would be out. Is that not correct? Can you claim depreciation against W2 being part of a syndicate? I would definitely prefer that.

    @Yonah Weiss and @Justin Cecil, thanks for the tips.

    @Justin Cecil I believe 1031 does not shield from depreciation after a cost segregation, but perhaps CPAs here can confirm. 

    @Katie L. I think I make too much. Also if I only show losses for some time does it make sense to do anything but LLC? I haven't gotten that far yet so haven't thought about it. All of this is still theoretical to me.

  • Rental Property Investor · Newport News, VA · Member since 2018 · 264 posts · 130 votes
    6y

    @Karl S.

    Our CPA has had the IRS ask one investor to show their real estate license to prove they were a real estate professional. The investor showed their license as real estate agent and that satisfied the IRS. They didn't ask about any hours or dig any further. You don't have to spend more time in a real estate deal than anyone else to be considered a real estate professional. However, I encourage your wife to keep a record sheet for the amount of hours she spends doing real estate. Your CPA should be able to find everything that qualifies as time.

    Best,

  • Rental Property Investor · VA · Member since 2018 · 6 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    @Karl S. You have a good understanding of the tax rules. If you have a W-2 job, it’s nearly impossible for you to qualify as a RE Professional. Your wife could qualify. If she qualifies as a RE Professional, she then needs to “materially participate” in the activity to deduct the net tax loss from ordinary income. She can “materially participate” based on a few different tests.

    Passive LPs in a partnership owning real estate generally do not qualify as materially participating and cannot deduct the real estate losses on their K-1 from their ordinary W-2 income.

    A CPA would walk through your personal facts and circumstances with you to help out.

  • Greg O'BrienBusiness Member
    Accountant · Boston, MA · Member since 2019 · 386 posts · 336 votes
    6y

    @Jesse Daconta a real estate license is not necessary not does it matter much. In fact, sales/brokerage hours are treated differently. That is what you called an inexperienced staff auditor! Happens more than you think, they don’t always know the regs.

  • Rental Property Investor · Newport News, VA · Member since 2018 · 264 posts · 130 votes
    6y

    @Greg O'Brien

    I never said you had to be a real estate agent to be considered a real estate professional. It was an example that I personally know of.

  • Greg O'BrienBusiness Member
    Accountant · Boston, MA · Member since 2019 · 386 posts · 336 votes
    6y

    @Jesse Daconta yes agree. I’m saying the auditors sometimes dont know the MP and REP rules and how that license does not mean much

  • Michael PlaksPro Member
    Tax Accountant / Enrolled Agent · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    6y

    @Karl S.

    While your overall plan makes sense and is being used by many investors, I'm not sure if you fully understand an important point brought up by @Yonah Weiss. It does not change the concept, but it does change the numbers in your projections.

    Specifically, cost segregation does not have its own separate tax deduction. It is thrown into that one big pot where all your RE income and expenses are. If your taxable income was exactly equal to your deductible expenses (including the "normal" slow depreciation) - then cost segregation creates a loss. If your taxable income exceeded your deductible expenses, then the additional depreciation from cost segregation offsets this income first, and the loss is whatever is left.

    What is important to remember here is that accelerated depreciation from cost segregation eats into the full amount (tax basis) available for depreciation, so in the future years you will actually have LESS depreciation than you would've had without cost segregation. This can create net positive taxable income in the future years, where otherwise it would have been a loss.

    Further, all properties are combined for the final tax liability. If you cost seg Property A in 2020 for a massive write-off, this property may end up with net income in 2021. If in 2021 you buy Property B and repeat the drill, the tax deductions from Property B will have to offset income from Property A before they can create an overall loss.

    This does not make your plan bad, but it may factor into calculating how much in actual savings you can squeeze out of it.

    Also, you used the term "cash flow" when comparing your target areas. Do not forget that cash flow is not the same as taxable income/loss. Many types of cash expenditures do not become a matching tax deduction. For example, property search and acquisition costs, costs of obtaining funding, principal payments towards mortgage, property improvements that have to be capitalized, etc.

  • Member since 2019 · 5 posts · 3 votes
    6y

    Hi @Michael Plaks, thanks for the explanation. Yes you are right I would be able to depreciate less in the future given the initial cost segregated bonus depreciation, and perhaps even start making accounting gains. However, I imagine there would be several ways to combat this: (1) generate expenses when this begins to happen, perhaps by reinvesting / remodeling the properties, etc. (2) at some point (hopefully much less than 27.5 years from now) I'll reach a scenario where I can't feasibly or don't feel like creating large enough losses. Then I retire from W2 job, drop down several tax brackets, and enjoy the cashflow and pay my (much lower) taxes, and let my eventual depreciation recapture disappear with inflation over time (or never happen if step up basis holds). I even wonder if I can have my eventually very high Roth IRA buy these assets from me if they still end up being tax inefficient (but this feels like a stretch). Let me know what you think.

  • Michael PlaksPro Member
    Tax Accountant / Enrolled Agent · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    6y

    @Karl S.

    I never recommend "generating expenses" just to save on taxes.

    Your IRAs cannot purchase anything from you, strictly prohibited.

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