Tax reform Q&A Thread 1 - Pass-through and 20% deduction

Tax reform Q&A Thread 1 - Pass-through and 20% deduction

Michael PlaksPro Member
Tax Accountant / Enrolled Agent · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes

Colleagues and friends, 

The original GOP reform thread started by @Brandon Hall is well over 200 posts by now. This is one of the follow-up threads specifically for discussion of pass-through entities (Sch C / Sch E sole proprietorships, LLCs, partnerships, S-corps) that will enjoy a 20% deduction under the tax reform. PLEASE POST OTHER QUESTIONS IN THE OTHER TAX REFORM THREADS.

As of today, we have a consensus on several points.

1. All forms of doing business (aka business entities) EXCEPT C-corporations and trusts will be treated the same way, as pass-through entities:

  • no entity / sole proprietorship / single-member LLC using Schedule C for non-rental business
  • no entity / sole proprietorship / single-member LLC using Schedule E for rental business
  • partnerships and LLCs filing as partnerships
  • S-corporations and LLCs filing as S-corporations

2. All of them are eligible for a 20% deduction from their net profit - i.e. after all deductions. 

Example 1: Susan the wholesaler makes $150k in assignment fees - gross profit. She deducts $50k marketing, driving, and whatnot - resulting in $100k net profit. 20% of that amount - or $20,000 - is Susan's new "freebie" deduction.

Example 2: Brad the apartment guy collects $300k rent from his property. He deducts $150k for property taxes, mortgage interest and insurance (they are not limited in the reform!) He deducts another $50k for maintenance, repairs and depreciation. Brad is left with $100k net rental income. He also gets a 20% freebie deduction equal to $20,000.

Note: if your business or rental properties show a net loss - there is no 20% deduction. 20% of zero is zero, sorry.

3. This deduction is "under the line" - meaning it is NOT subtracted from the AGI. 

4. This deduction is per business. If you have multiple businesses - each one calculates its own deduction. They will eventually add up on your tax return.

5. This deduction is not limited as long as your total taxable income (including W2s and everything else) is under the threshold:

  • $315,000 for a jointly filing couple
  • $157,500 for everybody else

6. Once you cross the threshold, your 20% deduction becomes limited. You can choose between two ways to figure the limitation, whichever is best.

  • 50% of all W2 salaries paid by the business - or -
  • 25% of all W2 salaries plus 2.5% of initial basis of all depreciable business assets

Example 1: ABC Flip-Flopping, a one-owner S-corp, generated $650k in income (after deductions) and paid $150k in salaries, resulting in $500k net income. The 20% deduction would be $100k. However, it is limited by 50% of the $150k salaries, or $75k. Only $75,000 is deductible. The company has no assets, so it cannot benefit from the alternative limit.

Example 2: XYZ Slumlords, an LLC-partnership, owns an apartment complex that they purchased for $2.5 mil. It generates $500k net income (after all expenses and depreciation) and pays no salaries. 20% deduction would be $100k. Since there're no salaries - we have to use 2.5% of depreciable basis. Let's say that $0.5 mil was allocated to land - which leaves $2 mil depreciable basis. 2.5% of $2 mil is $50k - which is our limit. Only $50,000 is deductible.

7. If you're a "service business" AND over the threshold mentioned in #5 above - then your 20% deduction gets phased out and completely disappears at:

  • $415,000 for a jointly filing couple
  • $207,500 for everybody else

The definition of service business is "where the principal asset of the business is the reputation or skill of 1 or more of its employees" - which is not totally clear. It looks like Realtors and brokers are considered service businesses.

There're lots of questions left, and nobody has all the answers. We all expect more rules from the IRS that will change the game. Meanwhile - let's debate it here. As long as it's on topic, please. There are other threads for other tax reform topics.

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Accountant · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
7y

@Terry Fox

You should ask him to read IRC §1402(a)(2) and Treas Reg §1.1402(a)-4.

There is no reference in IRC Sec 199A to IRC Sec 1402, nor vice-versa.

Making a trade or business determination on your rentals for 199A does not affect a self-employment tax determination.  They are completely divorced.

You may want to interview other CPAs/EAs for the upcoming filing season and your consulting needs.

You shouldn't be explaining tax law to your tax pro.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Accountant · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Terry Fox

    You should ask him to read IRC §1402(a)(2) and Treas Reg §1.1402(a)-4.

    There is no reference in IRC Sec 199A to IRC Sec 1402, nor vice-versa.

    Making a trade or business determination on your rentals for 199A does not affect a self-employment tax determination.  They are completely divorced.

    You may want to interview other CPAs/EAs for the upcoming filing season and your consulting needs.

    You shouldn't be explaining tax law to your tax pro.

  • Michael PlaksPro Member
    OP
    Tax Accountant / Enrolled Agent · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    7y

    @Terry Fox

    Your accountant is confusing "trade or business" concept for the 20% deduction (Section 199A) with "earned income" concept for the SE tax. Rental income is never subject to SE tax.

  • Accountant, Enrolled Agent · Grayslake, IL · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Terry Fox:

    Hi @Michael Plaks, I'm following up on this conversation from earlier in the year.  I saw some info where it looks like the IRS has issued guidance and that a sole proprietor who is a landlord can take the 20% Passthrough deduction.  However, when I brought this to the attention of my tax accountant he was worried I would have to pay other additional taxes on the funds so it may not be worth it:

    "But we have to see if it’s worth it with the additional self-employment tax(fica and medicare) that would then be imposed on the net rental income because it is a trade or business".

    Is that in line with your thoughts?

     He is completely wrong. RUN don't walk away from that relationship. They definitely have not educated themselves on the new tax law.  

  • Accountant, Enrolled Agent · Grayslake, IL · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Michael Plaks:

    @Terry Fox

    Your accountant is confusing "trade or business" concept for the 20% deduction (Section 199A) with "earned income" concept for the SE tax. Rental income is never subject to SE tax.

     Except in cases where rental income isn't considered rental income under 469 it may be considered an active business activity. 

  • Michael PlaksPro Member
    OP
    Tax Accountant / Enrolled Agent · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Steven Hamilton II:
    Originally posted by @Michael Plaks:

    @Terry Fox

    Your accountant is confusing "trade or business" concept for the 20% deduction (Section 199A) with "earned income" concept for the SE tax. Rental income is never subject to SE tax.

     Except in cases where rental income isn't considered rental income under 469 it may be considered an active business activity. 

    Still will be exempt from SE tax though 

  • Investor · Ellington, CT · Member since 2012 · 60 posts · 16 votes
    7y

    Thanks @Michael Plaks, @Steven Hamilton II, @Eamonn McElroyfor the excellent responses.  

  • Accountant, Enrolled Agent · Grayslake, IL · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Michael Plaks:
    Originally posted by @Steven Hamilton II:
    Originally posted by @Michael Plaks:

    @Terry Fox

    Your accountant is confusing "trade or business" concept for the 20% deduction (Section 199A) with "earned income" concept for the SE tax. Rental income is never subject to SE tax.

     Except in cases where rental income isn't considered rental income under 469 it may be considered an active business activity. 

    Still will be exempt from SE tax though 

    Just don't want to make general statements as it can run into the line of not being a rental activity and turning into a hotel activity. Facts and circumstances matter. Most individuals don't know when it crosses that line. 

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