Straight talk: my CPA keeps delaying and is not responding

Straight talk: my CPA keeps delaying and is not responding

Michael PlaksPro Member
Tax Accountant / Enrolled Agent · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes

We accountants are regularly approached by investors who are unhappy with their current CPAs being too slow to finish the work, too difficult to get hold of, too unreliable, too something else... 

So I decided to open this can of worms which is sure to hit a nerve with many on both sides. Go ahead, chime in! I'll start with a copy of an email I sent to one recent prospect:

"...Cannot comment on your CPA relationship not knowing the other side of the story, and I'm not really interested in it, to tell you the truth. So here're some general comments. 

There're too few of us experienced REI accountants out there, compared to the demand for our services. New ones join the club regularly, but it takes time to get good at this. I know it from the extreme difficulty of hiring competent staff for my firm and a similar experience of my peers. Among the established ones, and I hope that yours is in this group, we have more prospects than we can handle. Some of us stop taking work when full, and others continue to take work creating unmanageable overload.

I've been in both of these situations, so it's first hand experience. If you lose control of your workload and get yourself buried, things get out of hand. Also, if you're dealing with a solo practitioner without staff, there's a constant struggle allocating time between technical work and customer service. 

Possibly the most important factor is the structure of your engagement. What kind of communication are you talking about? Asking for an update on the completion date for your tax return? Or asking for tax advice on your next deal? Is it built into your engagement? In what form? Do you have regular meetings? Are you supposed to have an ongoing access to your CPA in between these sessions? Via phone or via text or via email? 

In other words, what you describe could be either a service failure or a miscommunication about the expected relationship or a combination of both. Whether your business relationship could be better with a different CPA is the same question as asking about a better personal relationship with a different life partner. Things are usually very rosy when they start. Just ask Johnny Depp.

And one other thought. The last 2-3 years have been hellish in our tax business. The avalanche of new government programs, new tax laws and rules, new reporting requirements, government (lack of) processing and responding, ever-changing technology including adapting to all-remote work - all of that creates an enormous strain on our already thinly spread resources, often resulting in longer delays and lapses in service. Some of us manage it better than others."

OK, BP tribe, what's been your experience? Btw, here's a related post on CPA charges from a few months back: https://www.biggerpockets.com/...

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Aaron ZimmermanBusiness Member
Accountant · Chicago, IL · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
4y

I can echo a lot of what’s been said here on a variety of levels. Working as a CPA firm that feels very short staffed and has too much for the staff, it can be challenging to get back to all the requests in a timely fashion. I think there has been a widespread burnout from this years busy season and the cumulative amount of changes over the last 5 years. This can make many tasks such as a simple question from a client feel like a chore. 
That being said, we do understand our duty to the clients and typically get back within one or two business days with a response. Poor service is unacceptable but I also echo the above comments as well. 

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    4y

    I have had major issues with my CPA this year. I understand all are short staffed and a lot more regulations but what has frustrated me is not getting an answer. What I mean by that is I should be able to be told "there are ten files in front of you".

    I understand that you cannot predict the timing of a file as what you thought would take a day may take three, but I cannot get an answer, I cannot get an estimate, and its very frustrating as I have over 100 investors throughout my syndications and I cannot give them a solid answer. 

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  • Michael PlaksPro Member
    OP
    Tax Accountant / Enrolled Agent · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Chris Seveney:

    I have had major issues with my CPA this year. I understand all are short staffed and a lot more regulations but what has frustrated me is not getting an answer. What I mean by that is I should be able to be told "there are ten files in front of you".

    I understand that you cannot predict the timing of a file as what you thought would take a day may take three, but I cannot get an answer, I cannot get an estimate, and its very frustrating as I have over 100 investors throughout my syndications and I cannot give them a solid answer. 


    I understand the frustration of syndicators like you and syndication investors like yours. The unfortunate reality of our industry is that April 15th is unrealistic when syndications are involved, especially this year. The changing reporting requirements (read this if really interested https://www.forbes.com/sites/a...) lead to most CPA firms delaying ALL partnership return completion until clearer guidance and better understanding is available - i.e. probably late summer. Which means you won't have K-1s until then, and your investors cannot file their personal tax returns.

    Under the pressure from investors to syndicators and consequently from syndicators to CPAs, some tax firms issue early K1s. This is not always a win though, because it creates a high risk of subsequent amending of the syndication return, then issuing revised K1s and each investor having to amend their personal returns. You're choosing between two bad situations: asking your investors to wait or giving them what they ask for (early K1s) but risking making them mad later with amended K1s.

  • Austin, TX · Member since 2019 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    4y

    Hey wait, I remember under the last Administrations promises of tax returns on the back of a matchbook cover, and voluminous stacks (room fulls) of Federal papers being signatoried out of existence forever--by the ton.

    And now you say the IRS returns are HARDER; or are they just not fully fleshed out yet?

    Or was that just for 1040's and not 1065's or 1120-S's (?)

  • Michael PlaksPro Member
    OP
    Tax Accountant / Enrolled Agent · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Scott Mac:

    Hey wait, I remember under the last Administrations promises of tax returns on the back of a matchbook cover, and voluminous stacks (room fulls) of Federal papers being signatoried out of existence forever--by the ton.

    And now you say the IRS returns are HARDER; or are they just not fully fleshed out yet?

    Or was that just for 1040's and not 1065's or 1120-S's (?)


    Trump did promise postcard-size personal tax returns, and his reform did simplify 1040s for most people who are NOT self-employed and NOT investors. Reporting for investors keeps getting more convoluted, and reporting for business entities is just insane.

  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    4y

    @Michael Plaks

    I am just asking for someone to pick up a phone and return a call or email.

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  • Michael PlaksPro Member
    OP
    Tax Accountant / Enrolled Agent · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Chris Seveney:

    @Michael Plaks

    I am just asking for someone to pick up a phone and return a call or email.


    No, Chris, you're actually asking for more. Would it be enough for you if "someone picks up a phone" and merely tells you "yessir, we're working on it"? Doubt so.

    What I believe you're really asking for is a commitment and keeping such commitment. As well as not just "returning a call or email" but giving you complete and timely answers. 

    And don't get me wrong, it is completely justified and reasonable for you to ask for it. I just tried to explain the reasons why you don't always receive it. They are not good reasons, but they are the reality.

    An analogy: should we all be able to choose a reputable specialized doctor and get an appointment with this doctor the next day? I'd say we should be. Yet we have to wait weeks or settle for the first available doctor. Who more often than not is someone fresh out of medical school without much experience.

  • Austin, TX · Member since 2019 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    4y

    I'm going to add to what Michael Plaks said with some of my own thoughts on this.

    Realize you are SHARING the service with others (at a cost savings of hiring this person as your full time employee).

    There are only 24 hours in a day; these guys (and gals) work HARD long hours on things with definite timelines to finish (or incur a penalty).

    A random call (expected to be answered whenever it fits YOUR schedule) might not work with ALL of the other clients workloads for that day/week/month.

    A better expectation for the service you are receiving might be: Hello, I'd like to speak to Mr. Plaks (or whomever) about XY and Z, Z has a drop dead of Tuesday, does he have time to take a call right now, or can you see about scheduling a callback. If it's past Z, ask if he can squeeze you in just about Z before that time.

    If Mr. Plaks was your full time (W2) Accountant, then you would have more ability to expect last minute unscheduled calls to be taken immediately--because you are not sharing the service with others.

    Just my 2 cents.

  • Metro NY + New Bedford · Member since 2022 · 294 posts · 216 votes
    4y

    As a CPA I can tell you that Clients who pay us on time, in full, and at fair value for our service always get prompt attention.  Which means that Clients who complain about our fees, ask us questions throughout the year, yet don't want to be billed for our time, will not get such prompt service.  Try calling a lawyer with a question off the top of your head.  You will pay at least $50 for that.  Like anything in life, you get what you pay for.  

    There is a joke in our business about the Client who asked when his return would be ready, and how much it would cost.  When told that it would cost $X, an amount which the Client deemed excessive, he was asked what he thought the return would cost.  The Client replied "One hundred dollars".  The CPA promised him that the return would be ready in thirty minutes.  If you want a cheap return, that's what you will get.

    As for the rush during tax season, recently I encourage all Clients to make their estimated balance due payments by April 1.  Why?  A lot can go wrong if you owe money and you delay payment until April 15:  people die, get sick, files are hacked, computers fail, internet fails.  Sh-t happens.

    Massive amounts of K-1's.  Educate that Client that the deadline is impossible to meet.  File extensions, and see that the Clients pay enough based upon forecasts.  If they overpay, apply to the !Q estimated tax payments.

    Do tax return projections after Thanksgiving, so there are no surprises by April 15. Educate those Clients who need this, and add to the fees.

    By March 31, everyone goes on extension for 1040's.  And by February 15 for entities.  As I wrote Sh-t happens.  

    Mr. Plaks' observations are spot on.

  • Aaron ZimmermanBusiness Member
    Accountant · Chicago, IL · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    I can echo a lot of what’s been said here on a variety of levels. Working as a CPA firm that feels very short staffed and has too much for the staff, it can be challenging to get back to all the requests in a timely fashion. I think there has been a widespread burnout from this years busy season and the cumulative amount of changes over the last 5 years. This can make many tasks such as a simple question from a client feel like a chore. 
    That being said, we do understand our duty to the clients and typically get back within one or two business days with a response. Poor service is unacceptable but I also echo the above comments as well. 

  • Member since 2018 · 20 posts · 10 votes
    3y

    Found this thread an am curious to get people's thoughts. We just recently (last 2 years) started using a CPA to do taxes as we needed guidance on the proper way to account for a flip and now rentals. I will add they came highly recommended on this board. Fast forward and we've had.. issues and when I laid these out I was fired from the firm. So here it goes...

    As recommended above as we were approaching April 15 this year we asked for estimate and were told we didn't owe anything. Fast forward 5 months and we do our taxes and now owe $6K including penalties. We were told it was due to withholding but we hadn't changed anything nor switched jobs so not sure... (You would think that the withholding would have been accounted for in the estimates?)

    In preparation for this year taxes we got a couple of questions, one of which was if we received any Child Tax Credit to which we replied we don't think so and lo and behold we had and because of the way taxes were filed we now owed a penalty for not accounting for them properly.

    Something happened with our payment (everything was correct on form) so it didn't go through so we owed more additional interest.

    I laid out the above to the preparer going so far as to say I was offering it with sincerity because it was, no doubt, an email full of frustration and critique. No blame, just, this happened and this is frustrating us. I went out to mention (this may have been the step too far) that Turbo Tax did better prompting for info than this preparer's processes did. Reality is that gathering all the info for the preparer, filling out their PDF forms and trying to do this as a couple with high paying jobs and investments was incredibly tedious and took many times longer doing it the CPA's way with me and my wife overwriting the shared PDF file several times, having to manually do math to combine numbers, etc. I'm no fan of Intuit, the company, and feel they perpetuate the horrible situation we find ourselves in because they make money off of it, but their software is GOOD and is thorough (for at least non-RE things), efficient (importing data, analysis v. prior years, etc) and explained a lot which was the point I was making to the preparer. 

    As explained before, this landed with a thud and we were (unprofessionally I will add) told to take our business elsewhere.

    This person clearly knows their stuff and 1:1 was informative when it was us asking questions. From a pure tax prep perspective it was lacking... no probing (which may have uncovered that child tax credit thing since we didn't know what it was and said as much) and no review of taxes from them before submission. Just a meeting before they were prepared and then we got the results. No, here's what changed, here's what we should do, etc. 

    Per some of the posters above there should be a discussion about expectations but this wasn't so much about the stuff around the return (strategy, etc.) it was solidly just about the return and I don't think we were asking too much or in the wrong pointing out how painful it was.

    AITA here? I don't like having to find a new preparer and want to avoid this in the future. I will definitely ask how they collect info and what type of pre and post preparation reviews to expect.



  • Michael PlaksPro Member
    OP
    Tax Accountant / Enrolled Agent · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    3y

    @Jay Ritchie

    Nobody can take sides here as we only hear your perspective, and there's always the other half.

    But since you value sincerity... Even from this incomplete story, I probably would have been looking to send you elsewhere, too, were you my client. When there's a disconnect, "an email full of frustration and critique" is not productive. I'd recommend an inquiry along the lines of "can we discuss what transpired so we can avoid such complications in the future?"  Some of your complaints may not be valid, such as the miscommunication about the child credit advance. Also, comparing professional services to TurboTax is akin telling the restaurant manager that their chicken de bleu is not as moist as a grilled chicken from Walmart. 

    To have a better relationship with your future accountant, make sure to align your respective expectations beforehand. This post might be helpful: https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/51/topics/998718-explained-how-cpas-charge-you-and-why



  • Member since 2018 · 20 posts · 10 votes
    3y
    Thanks for the reply and you're right it's just my side. I read that article before posting and the guidance was helpful. I think my description made it sound much worse than it was but obviously it was taken the way it was taken. Unfortunately, to the extent we had a series of issues (the most significant being a widely inaccurate estimate) at each time it was my (the clients) fault. I should have done x (though I wasn't told that before). I should have known what the tax credit was (even though I said I didn't and didn't get a followup.) I should have seen my payment wasn't debited in a timely manner (notwithstanding that the time between the tax filing and letter from IRS didn't even cross a statement cycle.) 

    I used the TT as a way to compare and contrast that my expectations are actually quite simple. And personally if someone had that critique about my area of expertise I would take it seriously and not get immediately defensive. Soup Nazi was funny on TV, not so much in real life.

    So in short, if I can't trust my preparer to proactively help me keep simple mistakes from happening I'm not sure I should trust them on the more significant planning issues. To borrow your analogy, if you can't cook a chicken breast better than Walmart, maybe you shouldn't cater my wedding.

    What I found most informative in the article (even though I felt it was written from a perspective of a preparer trying to level-set customer expectations) is that many preparers are overcommitted and probably not doing things to the level they or their customers would like. This particular preparer (no doubt to all the referrals here on BP) admitted they were growing and at the same time slammed due to all of the changes occurring in the tax code and government policies. I didn't mention previously (in my email to this preparer or in my original post) the missed appointments, consultations with preparers (as they scaled) that had no knowledge of our previous returns, needing to do repeated followups to get any response, etc. 

    So I offer a counterpoint and addendum to the article referenced above from a customer point of view and questions we should be asking of potential preparers:

    1. How big is the firm (sole person or a team)?
    2. Who's doing my taxes and is it the same person that's assisting with planning? Who is the main point of contact?
    3. How many customers do they have at present and how many do they expect they can serve with present staffing levels?
    4. What is expected of me at tax time? What information do I need to be collecting all year to support the return? What format and how am I providing it?
    5. What is the turn around time for questions? For returns?
    6. Does preparation time change based on when you get info from me (i.e., if I give you everything in Jan are you still filing an extension and not finalizing my return until October?)
    7. Do you take the information supplied and use it without question or should I expect you to question it, clarify it?

    -Jay
  • Little Elm, TX · Member since 2017 · 3 posts · 1 vote
    3y

    @Michael Plaks I appreciate that you put yourself out there as a target, knowing so many are frustrated at the current situation.  

    I am not an accountant but I do manage many projects and often work with a permanent backlog.  I cannot control the funnel so part of my job is to set realistic expectations with my customers.  

    - I tell them up front the likely delay until their project start

    - I give them an estimated completion based on the best information I have

    - I communicate if I think we will miss the date

    - If the customer asked for changes that with affect the cost I share the cost and let them decide if they want to pay for the additional service

    - I respond to simple inquiries in a timely manner.  Complex ones I ack and let them know I will need to investigate so they know I have received the request (if there is a cost see above)

    Is it unreasonable to expect the same of a CPA?   I think its something that used to be referred to as "customer service".  

  • Michael PlaksPro Member
    OP
    Tax Accountant / Enrolled Agent · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Johnny Hawkins:

    @Michael Plaks 

    Is it unreasonable to expect the same of a CPA?   I think its something that used to be referred to as "customer service".  

    Let me simply copy-and-paste a paragraph from my earlier reply to someone else on this thread, as it answers your question, as well:

    "And don't get me wrong, it is completely justified and reasonable for you to ask for it. I just tried to explain the reasons why you don't always receive it. They are not good reasons, but they are the reality."
  • Accountant · Dallas, TX · Member since 2016 · 161 posts · 75 votes
    3y

    @Chris Seveney I work a lot with syndicated partnerships for multifamily. As a CPA, I prepare the tax returns and also review and sign others. 

    There is a lot of 'pressure' to have K-1s or 'estimates' by 3/31 so that returns can be filed by 4/15. This is not a reality any longer as people have left the accounting profession we will get around 35% of the partnership returns finished by 3/15, then we switch to personal 1040 tax returns, then alternate back and forth on first in first out basis after 4/15. I can give you ballpark estimates based on the financials provided, but not at an individual level. The managing member needs to be able to understand the depreciation + rental income for the year and multiply by the partner percentage of profit/loss. 

    After 4/18 this year vacation days start happening for staff that haven't had a day off in 3 months and worked most Saturdays. If you haven't been a client for 5+ years you may not be the priority. 

    The expectation to have a K-1 by 3/31 probably needs to change for most syndications. The expectation should be to extend for all partners in a syndication and receive an estimate by 4/1 and your K-1 by September 1st. For many of the individual partners in a syndication the losses are not deductible in the first year, so it should be easy to 'estimate' $0 income/loss from the partnership the first few years for most. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles · Member since 2018 · 844 posts · 1k+ votes
    3y

    Expecting a final K-1 before the filing deadline is not realistic. Been an private investor for a long time now and I think I've received a K-1 in April just once in that entire time. 

    I also work for an asset manager that issues K-1's and just getting the 4/1 estimates out involves a lot of long hours and late nights. 

  • Greg O'BrienBusiness Member
    Accountant · Boston, MA · Member since 2019 · 386 posts · 336 votes
    3y

    @Chris Seveney non responses is not excusable in my opinion. We have a 48 hr rule which our team lives by and its not hard to respond!

    With LPs we usually default to telling them late summer. The artificial pressure will mount otherwise!

  • Greg O'BrienBusiness Member
    Accountant · Boston, MA · Member since 2019 · 386 posts · 336 votes
    3y

    @Johnny Hawkins it is not. Customer service is extremely important. We will by the 48 hour rule. If you can’t respond in 48 hours then you are likely over capacity.

  • Jerry W.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Thermopolis, WY · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y

    Despite having rental houses for 30 years I have filed my taxes on time up until 2020.  Since then regardless of when we turn in paperwork out taxes are done late.  The records were turned in by late February but taxes were not done until late July.  I switched accountants this year, but taxes again have not been completed.  I know that there was simply too much work for the local accountants to handle.  I went with a younger Accountant who is probably not quite as good as the prior accountant, but my prior accountant lost 2 CPAs last year and was only able to hire one back.  Like plumbers and electricians and even lawyers, there are simply not enough to go around.  Expect delays, be reasonable, and if the service gets too bad look for another one, but you may not find one locally.

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