Subject-To Purchases To Avoid “The Wall” When Growing Your Buy-And-Hold Portfolio

Subject-To Purchases To Avoid “The Wall” When Growing Your Buy-And-Hold Portfolio

Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes

There have been several threads recently about trying to grow portfolios past 4, 10, or X properties. It seems everyone has unique problems based on their credit, income, liquidity, leverage ratios, type of income, etc. so it is difficult to come up with a blueprint for growing a portfolio of property prudently over time. Many people seem to have to goal of acquiring as many units as they can using a systematized approach so I thought this is something worthy of exploring in a thread.

Private financing generally doesn’t work well for holding long-term assets. The money has to compete with fully-amortizing 30-year debt with government guarantees. Since this debt is so cheap and many non real estate investors don’t hit the FNMA “wall†for financing they can bid prices higher with cheaper debt and make the projects work. Many of these folks are also owner-occupants not seeking cash flow using the 50% rule of thumb. Many people simply don’t account for most of the costs of ownership and bid too much for the properties too. Private money should be viewed as a take-down tool if your goal is to keep the property on the books and grow wealth over time.

Subject-to purchases generally happen at a purchase price above what is necessary to cash flow. The seller doesn’t have enough equity to sell at a “fire sale†price and protect their credit. The seller also is motivated enough to trust an investor to use their credit in trade for exiting a bad situation. The trouble with subject-to purchases is that they limit your farming area for buy-and-hold purchases to a certain extent. You get a discount on the property and don’t have to qualify for additional financing, but you trade off a bit on purchase price because you aren’t buying at a fire sale price point.

For those with limited equity to spread around while you are building a portfolio, the following financing strategy may work:

Properties 1-4
For your first four properties you have all of your arrows in your quiver. You have 4 FNMA “bullets†that offer the cheapest level of financing possible. You also have subject-to purchases and private money for short-term financing that you can later refinance using portfolio financing, conventional financing, etc. These products are suitable for holding property long-term because they eliminate the interest rate and refinancing risk for other types of money. They also are not subject to call provisions like subject-to financing is.

Properties 5-10
Once you have used your 4 FNMA bullets there are extra requirements for conforming financing for properties five through ten. You generally need two years of experience and better documentation of income to continue qualifying for loans. You also need the right DTI, which is subject to the vagaries of how both “debt service†and “income†are accounted for on front-end and back-end ratios. Lenders generally count 75%ish of rent as “income†for this calculation from what I am told. I don’t think that subject-to purchases are included in the ratio calculation.

An alternative is to use short-term financing with subject-to purchases or private money that can later be refinanced once the constraining factor is removed. This could be either the experience or the DTI constraint.

Properties 10-X
After you pass the 10-property threshold you are really relegated to commercial financing with higher loan constants. In general, the rates will be comparable to conventional financing, but the amortization period will be shorter so that debt service will be higher.

I see subject-to purchases as a way to bypass some of the financing constraints imposed by FNMA or portfolio lenders. Acquiring new property needs to be balanced with staying liquid and not taking on too much debt too quickly. Can anyone think of a good metric to gauge the proper measures for leverage? What should one account for over time (DTI, 6 months liquid for all product, etc.) in their financial statements to make a compelling presentation to a lender so that they can continue to finance future purchases without being a loan gypsy? How have you handled this while growing your portfolio?

What modifications would you make to the loan sequencing strategy if you acquire commercial product in addition to the resi product?

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Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
15y

I meant to look at who voted for the OP and mistakenly voted and there is no way I know of to retract it. Been away too long. Not that it is a really poor post, or that I disagree entirely, but there are flaws, especially where a few things are stated as if they are fact, while just opinions.

Using seller financing in any form is generally accomplished on a short term basis, but can be accomplished for more than 5 and 10 years, having done so hundreds of times.

A word of caution too, that omitting your obligations on a FNMA 1003 (loan application) would make it a fraudulent loan application. Your DTI ratio absolutely includes all financing obligations, even if the loan is made without recourse.

Those who have their name on a commercial loan (who have actually borrowed money at a bank) know that customary seller financing is very much like a portfolio loan with respect to the balloon requirement to the bank, the advantage is that usually a motivated seller will provide equity financing at or below that of the bank. The assumption of having to pay a premium on your deal for the financing is simply false. It is the private cash loan shark lenders that reach in your pockets. The call feature of sub-2s should be considered along the same lines as lightning striking twice in the same spot, it can and has happened, but about as likely. Having done hundreds of these, and reviewing thousands in seven different states, I have never seen a loan move directly to foreclosure as it would with a default in payment, when the original lender has barked, or the note holder, has gone this route. There has always been sufficient time to sell or refinance the property.

Avoiding the "wall" can be accomplished when your loan maturities (proper term) are managed. I suggest you line up your conventional deals first then move to seller financed deals, then move to the commercial arena. That is the way to begin your portfolio and move up. If you can't swing conventional financing, seller financing may be your only option, but make sure you can pull your deals together when they come due. If you can't do that, you are in the wrong RE strategy.

If you were a multi million dollar business entity we could develop an optimal leverage strategy as economic factors as that old opportunity cost could be better measured, but since you are not, it is a gut feeling, a shot in the dark and you'll usually need to take what you can as your options will always be limited. Just another way of saying that you can not inject all business financing ideas or concepts with small business, it is not practicle nor is it relevant to a small investor. Instead, strive to keep your portfolio flexible and have the abilty to move quickly in the market as conditions change. Stager the obligations that you have the best you can so that you don't have loans due at or about the same time. IMO, your seller financing, as a borrower, should always exceed 36 months (not 36, more than 36 to allow time to refinance depending on your situation) to 60 months, sometimes longer, depending how you structure your deals.

I know this sounded critical but it's not personal, it's that to dance around the bush just takes more time, effort and words typed, so sorry, I probably would not have said anything if I had not messed up. Now, I'm off to approve my awaiting colleague requests and answer my mail.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • SFR Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    15y

    Great post Bryan. I rarely ever print out a post for later review away from my computer, but this is an exception.

    When I get to 5 units I owe you a bottle of Scotch.

  • Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    15y

    Thanks Mitch...hopefully our lender experts will provide some clarity on how DTI is calculated for non-normal purchases. Maybe some of our folks can chime in on what they track to submit stuff to lenders too.

  • Full-Time Investor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    15y

    for the properties i've bought sub2 and owner financd, my banker calculates them the same as conventional ones...i'm still responsible for the debt, and i want to use the income from them to apply for new loans...not a huge deal though, my DCR is above 2

  • SFR Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2009 · 29 posts · 23 votes
    15y

    I've always thought that sub2 was a risky way to buy property. Every description I've read has the buyer posing as a property manager or some such and I never thought that skirting the truth in a situation like this was wise. I would hate to get a property rented out only to have the bank demand their money back. I'd love to hear some other experiences on this topic.

    As for financing beyond 4, I think that it depends a lot on your strategy. My long term goals are to get into apartments in the next 5 years so I'm probably not going to hold onto any of my rentals more than 3 or 4 years. My ultimate goal is to find private investors willing to hold onto interest-only notes for 3-5 years but failing that, i will end up relying on blanket loans most likely.

  • Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    15y

    It isn't necessarily a risky way to buy property, but it definitely is a risky way to continue to finance property if you hold for the long term. Buying subject-to can allow you to enter property quicker and solve problems in a lot of distressed sale situations. The tradeoff is that you don't generally get as big of a discount as you can get with property with a lot of equity that you can offer cash for.

    You also don't have to be unscrupulous to pull this off. There are plenty of ways to disclose everything and be up-front about it.

    Apartments above 4 units are financed using commercial loans, which is completely separate from the "4 unit max" for FNMA financing. Private money is a good option for short-term financing, but I haven't found it to be useful for portfolio properties you plan to keep for a long time.

    I don't like blanket loans at all and see little reason to use them unless that is your only alternative for collateral. Why cross-collateralize properties if you don't have to? The release clauses also monkey things up later on and leave you subject to the whims of the banks' valuation process.

  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Bruan Hancock:
    It isn't necessarily a risky way to buy property, but it definitely is a risky way to continue to finance property if you hold for the long term. Buying subject-to can allow you to enter property quicker and solve problems in a lot of distressed sale situations. The tradeoff is that you don't generally get as big of a discount as you can get with property with a lot of equity that you can offer cash for.
    Key word is "generally" in regards to the trade off of not getting fire sale pricing with sub2 purchases.
    For instance, I just locked a deal with an out of state owner for a property here in CA in which the loan balance was around $155k and I was able to get teh deal for $205k. The value is around $370k on exit and it needs about $40k so I just got an all-in purchase of 66% of value on a sub2 which allows me to save private money interest which I normally pay 12% on and the rate I will be paying is only 6%.

    The beauty of sub2 purchases is the ability to create financing without fees or tons of paperwork. Like Bryan stated, many times, you don't get these fire sale prices, but the trade off of getting a deal without having to arrange other financing is what makes it worth while. The availability of funds is often more valuable than the cost.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    15y

    I meant to look at who voted for the OP and mistakenly voted and there is no way I know of to retract it. Been away too long. Not that it is a really poor post, or that I disagree entirely, but there are flaws, especially where a few things are stated as if they are fact, while just opinions.

    Using seller financing in any form is generally accomplished on a short term basis, but can be accomplished for more than 5 and 10 years, having done so hundreds of times.

    A word of caution too, that omitting your obligations on a FNMA 1003 (loan application) would make it a fraudulent loan application. Your DTI ratio absolutely includes all financing obligations, even if the loan is made without recourse.

    Those who have their name on a commercial loan (who have actually borrowed money at a bank) know that customary seller financing is very much like a portfolio loan with respect to the balloon requirement to the bank, the advantage is that usually a motivated seller will provide equity financing at or below that of the bank. The assumption of having to pay a premium on your deal for the financing is simply false. It is the private cash loan shark lenders that reach in your pockets. The call feature of sub-2s should be considered along the same lines as lightning striking twice in the same spot, it can and has happened, but about as likely. Having done hundreds of these, and reviewing thousands in seven different states, I have never seen a loan move directly to foreclosure as it would with a default in payment, when the original lender has barked, or the note holder, has gone this route. There has always been sufficient time to sell or refinance the property.

    Avoiding the "wall" can be accomplished when your loan maturities (proper term) are managed. I suggest you line up your conventional deals first then move to seller financed deals, then move to the commercial arena. That is the way to begin your portfolio and move up. If you can't swing conventional financing, seller financing may be your only option, but make sure you can pull your deals together when they come due. If you can't do that, you are in the wrong RE strategy.

    If you were a multi million dollar business entity we could develop an optimal leverage strategy as economic factors as that old opportunity cost could be better measured, but since you are not, it is a gut feeling, a shot in the dark and you'll usually need to take what you can as your options will always be limited. Just another way of saying that you can not inject all business financing ideas or concepts with small business, it is not practicle nor is it relevant to a small investor. Instead, strive to keep your portfolio flexible and have the abilty to move quickly in the market as conditions change. Stager the obligations that you have the best you can so that you don't have loans due at or about the same time. IMO, your seller financing, as a borrower, should always exceed 36 months (not 36, more than 36 to allow time to refinance depending on your situation) to 60 months, sometimes longer, depending how you structure your deals.

    I know this sounded critical but it's not personal, it's that to dance around the bush just takes more time, effort and words typed, so sorry, I probably would not have said anything if I had not messed up. Now, I'm off to approve my awaiting colleague requests and answer my mail.

  • Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    15y

    You can certainly read anything into a post that you want to if you are left to your imagination ;-)

    Originally posted by Financexaminer:
    The assumption of having to pay a premium on your deal for the financing is simply false. It is the private cash loan shark lenders that reach in your pockets.

    The premium paid is for THE PROPERTY in MANY cases, not the loan. All-cash, no financing contingency offers yield lower prices than seller financing does in MANY cases. As Will demonstrated this is not always the case. As a general rule I have found that it is though.

    Originally posted by Financexaminer:
    The call feature of sub-2s should be considered along the same lines as lightning striking twice in the same spot, it can and has happened, but about as likely. Having done hundreds of these, and reviewing thousands in seven different states, I have never seen a loan move directly to foreclosure as it would with a default in payment, when the original lender has barked, or the note holder, has gone this route. There has always been sufficient time to sell or refinance the property.

    This I wholeheartedly agree with. There are plenty of other risks with subject-to purchases though and the loan STILL IS callable even if the likelihood is remote.

    The rest of your post I agree with for the most part Bill...including the part about cost of capital techniques being useless in small business. It doesn't hurt to track it for your own use though even if the bank doesn't care.

  • Real Estate Investor · Ontario, CA · Member since 2008 · 152 posts · 5 votes
    15y

    I love it

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    15y

    LOL, that's what I meant, pay too much for the property.

    I have written about these aspect often here and I'm sure they are still searchable, no need to rehash old stuff.

    Your ability to buy at a fire sale price is directly related to your skills to negoiate the deal. Others may pay too much with SF, I didn't and don't. Good luck

  • Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    15y

    Well I think that your ability to buy at a firesale price also has a lot to do (usually...thanks Will!) with how the deal is financed. All-cash with no financing contingency should yield lower prices in most instances.

    Private money or equity of your own helps in these scenarios. Many on here have mentioned using all cash to enter a property and then refinancing the thing. The trouble with this approach is that it ties your cash up until you are able to refinance out of the deal. You have to decide whether or not tying that money up for the seasoning period is worth it if the seller is willing to take less money for peace of mind with cash.

  • SFR Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2009 · 29 posts · 23 votes
    15y

    I haven't done this personally but I assume that if your plan was to use hard money in the first place that you could always buy it with cash then get a hard money loan after with little to no seasoning.

    I think J Scott spoke of this in another thread actually.

  • Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    15y

    Yeah...that would work I guess. If you didn't have to pay points that may be a good option until your seasoning was up and you could refinance into conventional financing.

    Maybe JScott can jump on here and give us his experience with this.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Nate Worcester:
    I haven't done this personally but I assume that if your plan was to use hard money in the first place that you could always buy it with cash then get a hard money loan after with little to no seasoning.

    I think J Scott spoke of this in another thread actually.

    I don't use hard money, but I often use portfolio lenders. They don't generally have seasoning requirements, and can often refinance within a day or two of the purchase if they did their due diligence upfront.

    I love to place cash offers -- which will get me much better terms than any type of financing -- and then either switch to financing prior to close (if I don't think the seller will mind) or refinance immediately after close.

    Obviously, the big downside is having to have the cash to close on your own, but if you have that, most portfolio lenders are happy to oblige the refi shortly thereafter.

  • Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    15y

    What sort of rate and amortization period do you get from those portfolio lenders JScott? How much do they let you pull out of the property? Is the refi LTV based on the lower of appraised value or purchase price?

  • Full-Time Investor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    15y

    bryan, i use the same strategy as J for rentals..for comparison's sake, i'll tell you waht they do for me as well....i can pull out 65% of what i have into the property (purchase and rehab)...amortized over 20 years with a 5 year balloon, interest rate between 6-7 depending on how much money

  • Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    15y

    Cool...anything with a 5-year balloon is not of interest to me for long-term financing. If they weren't being nuts about the fees to close it would be a nice little bridge loan to longer-term financing though.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Bryan Hancock:
    What sort of rate and amortization period do you get from those portfolio lenders JScott? How much do they let you pull out of the property? Is the refi LTV based on the lower of appraised value or purchase price?

    It depends on two things with the lender I use:

    1. Am I refinancing the purchase costs or purchase + rehab costs?

    2. Am I planning to flip or hold as rental.

    If I refi just the purchase, I'm looking at 80% LTV of the purchase price; if I refinance purchase + rehab costs, I'm looking at 75% LTV of the purchase + rehab costs.

    And, if I plan to flip, I'll get a 12 month interest only loan at prime + 1.25%, with a 6.75% floor. If I plan to hold, I'll get either a 3 or 5 year fixed rate with balloon (20 year amortization) at between 7 and 8.5%.

    Generally, I'll pay 1.25 point upfront as well, and there are some escrow requirements as well.

  • Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    15y

    That sounds expensive as a bridge loan to me. It seems great for flipping though. I guess it isn't much worse than private money.

    Our private lenders do 10-12% with no points so I am wondering if I can get them to take a 3 or so year balloon so that I can use this as bridge money for future subject-to purchases that are refinanced on commercial loans if they ever do get called. I don't like keeping many subject-to loans in our buy-and-hold portfolio because it would be a big hassle to refinance all of them at once if they ever did get called. This is unlikely, but prudent IMO.

    The trouble is that some of this private money finds its way into other projects so it really isn't an effective hedge for the call risk on subject-to purchases. I guess I am paranoid about this to some extent, but I don't like making promises to people that I potentially can't keep if the banks all called loans at once.

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