Encapsulate a crawl space,New ductwork, rotting floor joists…

[Charlsi Kelley]

Hi BP! I am under contract on a property that has numbers potentially good enough for a brrr. We are under contract at 300k and ARV is 430 bast on very similar comps in neighborhood. I had a budget of 30k rehab to do the necessary updates to get to my 435k target ARV. Hone is in excellent shape - new roof, floors are perfect- just a time capsule from the 80s. However, the property has 4-6 rotting floor joists and needs new subfloor in some sections. The cause is apparently long-term moisture damage from the ductwork that runs in the craw space rather than the attic. Yes we are going to push for a price reduction but in your experience should I do all of these repairs all at once before tenants move in? Should I do them in stages after I can save up some cash flow/refinance? I don't believe any of these will add to the value of the ARV:

1. Replace joists, subfloor (appx 14k)

2. New ductwork (8k)

3. Encapsulate crawl space (8k)

[Mike Reynolds]

Originally posted by @Charlsi Kelley:

Hi BP! I am under contract on a property that has numbers potentially good enough for a brrr. We are under contract at 300k and ARV is 430 bast on very similar comps in neighborhood. I had a budget of 30k rehab to do the necessary updates to get to my 435k target ARV. Hone is in excellent shape - new roof, floors are perfect- just a time capsule from the 80s. However, the property has 4-6 rotting floor joists and needs new subfloor in some sections. The cause is apparently long-term moisture damage from the ductwork that runs in the craw space rather than the attic. Yes we are going to push for a price reduction but in your experience should I do all of these repairs all at once before tenants move in? Should I do them in stages after I can save up some cash flow/refinance? I don't believe any of these will add to the value of the ARV:

1. Replace joists, subfloor (appx 14k)

2. New ductwork (8k)

3. Encapsulate crawl space (8k)

 I have read through the posts and agree somewhat with some of the posts. I am a retired HERS rater and now builder of multi million dollar commercial buildings. Doing a 60 million dollar project now.  I live in a high humidity area of East Texas. We have 80-90% humidity all year with [sometimes] the exception on August. Not this year though. 

Check the little stuff first. Look at the filters and change them if needed. Check the coils and clean them. If the airflow is restricted, it will sweat. If the insulation is wet you will need to turn off the unit for a "dry out" period. Wet insulation will drip for a long time. Check these first and foremost. Number 1 is airflow. If the insulation will not dry out it needs to be replaced.

Is the duct insulated under the house? -----If not, it absolutely has to be. And insulated properly by a professional. 

Are there leaks in the ducts? Have a duct blaster test by a professional to test this. Sometimes your state will have low cost or free programs to have a professional do this. Leaks will cause condensation. 

Do these things to even see if you have a real problem that will cause major issues. Replacing duct that leaks with more ducts that leak and are not insulated will not fix your issue. Moving them to the attic will only cause you to replace your ceiling in 6 months because it is now wet with condensation on our sheetrock. Your inspector needs a swift kick in the butt. 

Let us know how it goes. 

[Lynnette E.]

Gosh, there is so much to this simple post!  The work is not making sense and the prices are crazy!

If the floor joists need to be replaced, then you can sister them or put in new ones from below.  That si simple and easy.  I have had a few houses that required this in TN.  My two kids have been able to sister joists since they were maybe 14.  The thing you also need to check is that the rim joist is in good shape.  IT it the one that goes around the other floor joists and hold them together.  IT is much harder to replace.  My two kids could do 6 regular floor joists in a few hours, its not hard.  That should not be expensive, nails, framing gun, wood, nothing special here.  Could be done with the tenant in place, but why wait?  Simple and fast repair.

Now, the subfloor is another thing.  That can not be done from underneath.  Saying the floors are in good condition is meaningless because you will be pulling the floor out to put the subfloor on those joists and then the floor goes on top of the subfloor.  You can not put the subfloor on top of the joists from below.  The hard part of putting in the subfloor is removing the old floor.  If you are keeping the old floor it is even more time consuming.  Again, not a high skill task, my teens do it, have on 2 houses so far.  Its not their favorite job though, hard on the knees.  If you are putting back in hardwood, that will be an expensive move.  The cost of hardwood floors is a lot in the labor, each piece cut and nailed in, on your knees!  This job would require taking everything off the floor, so best done with an empty house.  And you can walk on the floors to see if they have 'give'.  If so, I'd replace the floor before renting because it is easy to fall through, and a big liability.  I personally fell through a floor on one of my houses and went straight down 4 feet.  Pretty banged up for a month.  And I hire people to put in the hardwood, paid $8k for a huge living room, dining room and large master bedroom, included sanding to get a perfect leveled floor and final coating.

Ductwork, I think you need to get another opinion  Most of my houses have the ductwork under the house.  You can get auto open vents in the crawl space, a dehumidifier, vent one of those ducts to the crawl space to put in conditioned air, wrap the ducts, insulate them.  Lots of much cheaper things to do that will fix the problem.  

Now for encapsulating the crawl space.  Get a quote from a pest control company that you get a yearly spraying contract with.  They are by far the cheapest where I invest to do this because they like to crawl on the plastic instead of the dirt.  I once, for my personal house, got 2 quotes from heavily advertised companies that do crawl space work for their business, both at $5k.  The pest control guy did it for $300.  Yes, less than 10%.  So not a use the small pest control company for that work.

But do use your quote to negotiate.

[Charlsi Kelley]

@Genny Li I am so impressed with your knowledge- thanks for sharing and explaining this so that I can understand this more in-depth! I am definitely nowhere near as proficient as I’d like to be with “building science” but am learning as I go along here! I think the advice I have received on this thread will end up saving us thousands of dollars!

[Charlsi Kelley]

@Mike Reynolds thanks for sharing your expertise here! It seems that this problem can be tackled with smaller fixes rather than completely ripping everything out and starting over!! I will post an update on what method we decided to use (and photos if I can).

[Charlsi Kelley]

@Lynnette E. I love that your kids are able to do this work!!! Do they want to come down to Charleston for a working vacation by chance!? 😉 I am going to reread everyone’s suggestions and figure this out! I’ll keep y’all updated!

[Dave E.]

@Genny Li

Wow thermodynamic steam tables. You must be an engineer. Thanks for giving us all an education.

My point is there are several factors to consider to get this right. Moving the ductwork is not one of them.

Encapsulating the crawl space may be a good solution, but it depends on several other factors as well.

In some parts of the country a property ventilated crawl space is the answer, and yes that also relies on things being properly insulated as you so aptly pointed out.

[Rik Hunter]

I have a duplex in Chattanooga that had the same situation. Tips were sealing all the external air vents and encapsulating. I also added a sump pump because there was standing water along one foundation wall. We get a lot more rain than Seattle. And I also added a dehumidifier. This set up works great. But, I had to connect the pump and dehumidifier to one unit's electrical panel. 

I got an estimate of $10-12k for that work (not including the subfloor/joist work. I did everything myself for maybe $4-5k.

[Michael Ablan]

@Charlsi Kelley -   I don't see how you can get away w/ leaving rotted subfloor unless it's not actually rotting

A lot of times you can just sister floor joists instead of replacing.

Unfortunately none of these repairs will significantly affect your ARV unless there's a very obvious and significant issue

[Lynnette E.]

Originally posted by @Charlsi Kelley:

@Lynnette E. I love that your kids are able to do this work!!! Do they want to come down to Charleston for a working vacation by chance!? 😉 I am going to reread everyone’s suggestions and figure this out! I’ll keep y’all updated!

 Unfortunately they are both starting college.  My son for culinary arts and my daughter for diesel mechanic.  I lost my workers! But I think that my days for buying totally trashed houses is over, I have enough to keep me financially happy and busy.  2 more to rehab, one should finish this month.  The other we are waiting for cooler weather.  Then I will only get minor work not more lifting walls and rebuilding rooms.

[William Coet]

@Charlsi Kelley  A proper encapsulation job is the best choice.  Beware that not all encapsulation materials are the same.  Some of the liner material on the market has an adhesive in it that breaks down and begins to smell like cat urine.  There is a company called crawlspace ninja that sells a higher quality product (i have no association with the company).  They also sell all of the other materials needed for crawlspace encapsulation.  I have not used the materials, so I cannot comment on their longevity.  

[Charlsi Kelley]

@Lynnette E. That’s so cool! I actually went to culinary school in Buenos Aires…my husband and I met while cooking/working in restaurants in Charleston. Unsolicited advice…If I could do it over again I would have simply gotten paid to work in restaurants rather than spend $$$ on the formal culinary education. You come out and still have to work your way up the ranks and the pay/hours aren’t good until you get to the top! (but the experience living in South America and becoming bilingual was invaluable!)

[Bruce Woodruff]

I suspect the pricing for the 'joist' work includes some replacement also of beams and pier posts...structural work gets pricey. Other wise, yes it is a 'bit high' :-)

You already got good advice on the ducting and crawlspace, nothing much to add there. Except to stress the importance of having your crawlspace clean and well ventilated...

[Lynnette E.]

Originally posted by @Charlsi Kelley:

@Lynnette E. That’s so cool! I actually went to culinary school in Buenos Aires…my husband and I met while cooking/working in restaurants in Charleston. Unsolicited advice…If I could do it over again I would have simply gotten paid to work in restaurants rather than spend $$$ on the formal culinary education. You come out and still have to work your way up the ranks and the pay/hours aren’t good until you get to the top! (but the experience living in South America and becoming bilingual was invaluable!)

We live in TN, so the state pays for the first 2 years of college.  Walter State College has the best culinary arts program within the state college system, so that is where he is going.  In the mean time he works at McDonalds--not culinary, but at least he knows sanitation!  And this college program has them cooking for catered events, programs, and has a restaurant the students run.  

[Genny Li]

Originally posted by @Dave E.:

@Genny Li

Wow thermodynamic steam tables. You must be an engineer. Thanks for giving us all an education.

My point is there are several factors to consider to get this right. Moving the ductwork is not one of them.

Encapsulating the crawl space may be a good solution, but it depends on several other factors as well.

In some parts of the country a property ventilated crawl space is the answer, and yes that also relies on things being properly insulated as you so aptly pointed out.

 I was. Now I work for meeeee.  lol.

You are right, and that's what I was saying about it.  As the ductwork is already in the crawlspace, encapsulation plus insulation is the way to go.  *If it wasn't,* then you could put your "inside" line at the floor a lot more easily, and then you'd vent the crawlspace, but that will work best in areas that aren't very hot and humid.

I actually lived in a house with a vented crawlspace that worked great.  Why?  A) It was in the high desert.   B) The mechanicals were all inside the house (except waste lines).  What was utterly pointless was they they'd loose-laid multiple poly barriers on the ground. In the desert. I have no idea what they were thinking. The ground under there would never be anything but bone-dry, as the rain practically never soaked down past the footer level.

That was also my passive solar house. I loved that thing. lol.

[Genny Li]

Originally posted by @Lynnette E.:

Gosh, there is so much to this simple post!  The work is not making sense and the prices are crazy!

If the floor joists need to be replaced, then you can sister them or put in new ones from below.  That si simple and easy.  I have had a few houses that required this in TN.  My two kids have been able to sister joists since they were maybe 14.  The thing you also need to check is that the rim joist is in good shape.  IT it the one that goes around the other floor joists and hold them together.  IT is much harder to replace.  My two kids could do 6 regular floor joists in a few hours, its not hard.  That should not be expensive, nails, framing gun, wood, nothing special here.  Could be done with the tenant in place, but why wait?  Simple and fast repair.

Now, the subfloor is another thing.  That can not be done from underneath.  Saying the floors are in good condition is meaningless because you will be pulling the floor out to put the subfloor on those joists and then the floor goes on top of the subfloor.  You can not put the subfloor on top of the joists from below.  The hard part of putting in the subfloor is removing the old floor.  If you are keeping the old floor it is even more time consuming.  Again, not a high skill task, my teens do it, have on 2 houses so far.  Its not their favorite job though, hard on the knees.  If you are putting back in hardwood, that will be an expensive move.  The cost of hardwood floors is a lot in the labor, each piece cut and nailed in, on your knees!  This job would require taking everything off the floor, so best done with an empty house.  And you can walk on the floors to see if they have 'give'.  If so, I'd replace the floor before renting because it is easy to fall through, and a big liability.  I personally fell through a floor on one of my houses and went straight down 4 feet.  Pretty banged up for a month.  And I hire people to put in the hardwood, paid $8k for a huge living room, dining room and large master bedroom, included sanding to get a perfect leveled floor and final coating.

Ductwork, I think you need to get another opinion  Most of my houses have the ductwork under the house.  You can get auto open vents in the crawl space, a dehumidifier, vent one of those ducts to the crawl space to put in conditioned air, wrap the ducts, insulate them.  Lots of much cheaper things to do that will fix the problem.  

Now for encapsulating the crawl space.  Get a quote from a pest control company that you get a yearly spraying contract with.  They are by far the cheapest where I invest to do this because they like to crawl on the plastic instead of the dirt.  I once, for my personal house, got 2 quotes from heavily advertised companies that do crawl space work for their business, both at $5k.  The pest control guy did it for $300.  Yes, less than 10%.  So not a use the small pest control company for that work.

But do use your quote to negotiate.

Child labor is good labor, I always say. ;)  (I think it's important for my kids to learn stuff, too!) 

[Charlsi Kelley]

UPDATE- we have now had our 2nd official estimate. This time from someone who understood that we simply wanted to do the minimum to get this thing stabilized and safe. He came out of the crawl space and basically told me that it was worse than he had expected. We are needing to rip up at least 800sf of *perfect condition* solid hardwoods to replace rotted out subfloor and the support beams. This area was all affected by a larger than normal duct line that sweats and is touching the wood so it essentially caused moisture to build up on this whole area. Some of the joists had already been sistered 4x and in other parts there was evidence of prior “band aid” fixes (shims wedged, 2x4s propping up some subfloor sections etc. Luckily we do have a contingency on a clear CL100 inspection (which there is no way it’s coming back clear!) but by question is- ***at what point do you decide the deal is not worth pursuing?***

Some rough numbers: under contract at 300k, rehab budget was 30k (not including subfloor/joist/ductwork surprise) ARV 430k. Combined rental income would be approximately 36-40k per year)

[Lynnette E.]

Originally posted by @Charlsi Kelley:

UPDATE- we have now had our 2nd official estimate. This time from someone who understood that we simply wanted to do the minimum to get this thing stabilized and safe. He came out of the crawl space and basically told me that it was worse than he had expected. We are needing to rip up at least 800sf of *perfect condition* solid hardwoods to replace rotted out subfloor and the support beams. This area was all affected by a larger than normal duct line that sweats and is touching the wood so it essentially caused moisture to build up on this whole area. Some of the joists had already been sistered 4x and in other parts there was evidence of prior “band aid” fixes (shims wedged, 2x4s propping up some subfloor sections etc. Luckily we do have a contingency on a clear CL100 inspection (which there is no way it’s coming back clear!) but by question is- ***at what point do you decide the deal is not worth pursuing?***

Some rough numbers: under contract at 300k, rehab budget was 30k (not including subfloor/joist/ductwork surprise) ARV 430k. Combined rental income would be approximately 36-40k per year)

 Its hard to determine at what point to call it quit on deciding about rehabs.  I generally buy my houses at auction, site unseen.  I leave enough of a dollar gap to cover some pretty big ticket items.  But for me, by the time I see the house, its too late and I own it.  I have been able to fix them and stay in a good position financially.

But as time has gone on, there are some rehabs that I just do not like to do anymore.  So my two teens and I recently decided to resell one house because after doing the demo and looking at what we have to do to fix it, none of the things are the things we actually enjoy doing.  We will lose money on selling it because its demoed, but will gain in not spending our lives on a house we do not like and doing things we do not like.  This house needs those beautiful hardwood floors pulled up, the floor framing redone and the whole house lifted above the current dirt level--the crawl space is less than 12 inches in depth.  Then new subfloor and then putting the hardwood back in place.  It would be our fourth go round on this process.  Its awful knee breaking work we do not like.  In the end it looks like it did to start with, if we are lucky.  But it is firm and not caved downward in places.    It's just not satisfying.  So this house will be sold!

When I look at your house.  The numbers seem to be ok, not great, but ok.  You are still about at the 1% rule.  Price is low enough.  So then it goes to the repairs.  They are not hard to contract, and I am assuming you are contracting it.  You seem, now, to have an honest or more qualified contractor to do it.  What you are doing in the end is needed for the house structurally, but it is not a 'value added' type of activity because people do not pay extra for the floor to not fall in.  And, truthfully, doing the best you can, the hardwood floor will not look quite as good on the replacement as the original.  The way the pieces fit will just not have that 100 year old smoothness.  But in the end someone will do this work or the structure will fail, so someone will be doing this, someday.  But should it be you?

So, I think for your house, the "Is it worth it?" really comes down to, do you want to oversee this type of a repair job?  Would you rather focus on more cosmetic fixes?  These types of fixes, generally go fine, you do have to replace a lot of wood, and it can be done like a puzzle.  But sometimes the sill or edge pieces are gone too, and then the whole house can shift.  So things can go bad.  It' s a big risk.  Would that type of possibility stress you out?  What do you see as the type of rehab do you want your business to focus on?  That is what will answer the question.

[William Coet]

Originally posted by@Charlsi Kelley:

UPDATE- we have now had our 2nd official estimate. This time from someone who understood that we simply wanted to do the minimum to get this thing stabilized and safe. He came out of the crawl space and basically told me that it was worse than he had expected. We are needing to rip up at least 800sf of *perfect condition* solid hardwoods to replace rotted out subfloor and the support beams. This area was all affected by a larger than normal duct line that sweats and is touching the wood so it essentially caused moisture to build up on this whole area. Some of the joists had already been sistered 4x and in other parts there was evidence of prior “band aid” fixes (shims wedged, 2x4s propping up some subfloor sections etc. Luckily we do have a contingency on a clear CL100 inspection (which there is no way it’s coming back clear!) but by question is- ***at what point do you decide the deal is not worth pursuing?***

Some rough numbers: under contract at 300k, rehab budget was 30k (not including subfloor/joist/ductwork surprise) ARV 430k. Combined rental income would be approximately 36-40k per year)

How much was the estimate?

[Charlsi Kelley]

Still waiting on the final bid from the new company- but I would guess that all in it will add approximately 30k to our initial 30k rehab budget. We are going to ask for a substantial price reduction and see how it goes. It’s an estate sale, there’s no mortgage balance, and the relatives are not local from what I understand. my hope is that they are not emotionally invested and just want the deal to close as planned in the next 2 weeks- **especially now that they will have photos and knowledge they will not want to disclose to another potential buyer. If not, then yes we will walk and look for something more cosmetic (along with everybody else! Lol) 

[Bruce Woodruff]

Originally posted by @Lynnette E.:

Actually, it is possible to do a flawless rematch on old wood floors. I've seen it done on jobs I was running. However these were million dollar remodels and the Flooring Contr was not cheap.

[Lynnette E.]

Originally posted by @Bruce Woodruff:

Originally posted by @Lynnette E.:

Actually, it is possible to do a flawless rematch on old wood floors. I've seen it done on jobs I was running. However these were million dollar remodels and the Flooring Contr was not cheap.

 Yes, but what I like about the 100 year old floors are how they seem to wear slightly lighter in the middle and darker on the edges, just real slight, and then the little nicks that appear darker.

I have had patches put in where the old floor heaters were and, yes its amazing that they can match them so they do not even show a patch was put there.  And it is expensive!

[Victor S.]

Originally posted by @Charlsi Kelley:

Still waiting on the final bid from the new company- but I would guess that all in it will add approximately 30k to our initial 30k rehab budget. We are going to ask for a substantial price reduction and see how it goes. It’s an estate sale, there’s no mortgage balance, and the relatives are not local from what I understand. my hope is that they are not emotionally invested and just want the deal to close as planned in the next 2 weeks- **especially now that they will have photos and knowledge they will not want to disclose to another potential buyer. If not, then yes we will walk and look for something more cosmetic (along with everybody else! Lol) 

 solid plan. unless they had multiple offers, you have a decent chance of snagging this one. i still think 30k is much too high for this repair, so you might want to keep shopping around, now knowing the extend of what needs to be done. good luck and keep us posted.