Who's Been Swimming Naked?

Who's Been Swimming Naked?

Specialist · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 77 posts · 202 votes

The tide is going out, and we're about to find out who's been swimming naked. There have been some very significant things going down in financial markets of late. I'm not calling a crash and I'm not claiming I know the timing. I'm definitely not saying stop looking at deals. What I'm saying is that early warning signs are flashing and it is time to think very carefully about what our goals are, and to not over-extend ourselves. Here's Why:

  • The dollar is up this year vs. major currencies at the same time the Fed is tightening.
  • The Fed, while having raised rates marginally, is just now taking things back into positive REAL interest rate territory.
  • We all know how tight deals are now, valuations can't support much higher interest rates.
  • Unemployment is extremely low. While many cite this as a positive, what it means from an economic perspective is that there is no slack in the labor market to fuel growth and wage pressure will increase.
  • With wages increasing and borrowing costs increasing while profits are peaking, there will be significant pressure on corporations to cut costs and cut back on capital spending. Cutting costs = reducing head count.
  • Corporations are drastically over-leveraged. Covenant lite loans are rampant and credit quality is worse than people think, shadowed by historically low borrowing costs. Look at what is happening to GE for a good example of what is to come.
  • Local, State, and Federal Governments are drastically over-leveraged. Cutting spending is the least likely outcome, followed by taxing, then borrowing/inflating. Trying to borrow into rising interest rates risks a true crisis in government debt and the potential for serious inflation as the Fed monetizes the debt at the Federal level.
  • The stock market, which has seen recent valuations in-line with the most extreme bubbles in history, is now showing serious signs of deterioration.
  • Credit spreads have been silly-low for a long time and are now starting to widen.
  • Cracks are forming in the high end real estate markets - Seattle, San Fran, New York. These markets tend to lead corrections.
  • A large proportion of RE Sponsors, along with fund managers on Wall St. have literally never faced a down market in their careers, at least as the strategic head of a fund/organization. 
  • This economic expansion is the second longest on record. Granted, my economics degree is pretty worthless but still, I'm pretty sure the economy is cyclical.
I believe that the next several years will be drastically different from the past decade. There's no indication that a very abrupt and deep correction is imminent - this could play out over many, many years. But asset management and property management will be where the value is created or preserved, value-add may become more of a defensive measure, and so-so investors and sponsors will no longer get bailed out by compressing cap rates and extreme rent growth. We will begin to see who the truly strong real estate professionals are, and who has been swimming naked. I've been extremely frustrated with my failure to acquire good deals in my market and size range. I think that is about to change.
What I guess I'm saying is: keep me in mind in 2019 and 2020 if you've got a deal going sideways. I'll be buying :).
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Rental Property Investor · St. Paul, MN · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
7y

I thought for a minute you had been spying on me in my pool. 

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Real Estate Agent · Salt Lake City, UT · Member since 2018 · 247 posts · 247 votes
    7y

    Thanks for your post @Account Closed

    I appreciate your analysis and share similar feelings. My market in Utah has seen a lot of, in my opinion, unsubstainable growth in prices. I believe we’re at the beginning stages of a market correction. It’ll make for a great time to find more deals!

  • JD MartinBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    The tide is going out, and we're about to find out who's been swimming naked. There have been some very significant things going down in financial markets of late. I'm not calling a crash and I'm not claiming I know the timing. I'm definitely not saying stop looking at deals. What I'm saying is that early warning signs are flashing and it is time to think very carefully about what our goals are, and to not over-extend ourselves. Here's Why:

    • The dollar is up this year vs. major currencies at the same time the Fed is tightening.
    • The Fed, while having raised rates marginally, is just now taking things back into positive REAL interest rate territory.
    • We all know how tight deals are now, valuations can't support much higher interest rates.
    • Unemployment is extremely low. While many cite this as a positive, what it means from an economic perspective is that there is no slack in the labor market to fuel growth and wage pressure will increase.
    • With wages increasing and borrowing costs increasing while profits are peaking, there will be significant pressure on corporations to cut costs and cut back on capital spending. Cutting costs = reducing head count.
    • Corporations are drastically over-leveraged. Covenant lite loans are rampant and credit quality is worse than people think, shadowed by historically low borrowing costs. Look at what is happening to GE for a good example of what is to come.
    • Local, State, and Federal Governments are drastically over-leveraged. Cutting spending is the least likely outcome, followed by taxing, then borrowing/inflating. Trying to borrow into rising interest rates risks a true crisis in government debt and the potential for serious inflation as the Fed monetizes the debt at the Federal level.
    • The stock market, which has seen recent valuations in-line with the most extreme bubbles in history, is now showing serious signs of deterioration.
    • Credit spreads have been silly-low for a long time and are now starting to widen.
    • Cracks are forming in the high end real estate markets - Seattle, San Fran, New York. These markets tend to lead corrections.
    • A large proportion of RE Sponsors, along with fund managers on Wall St. have literally never faced a down market in their careers, at least as the strategic head of a fund/organization. 
    • This economic expansion is the second longest on record. Granted, my economics degree is pretty worthless but still, I'm pretty sure the economy is cyclical.

    I believe that the next several years will be drastically different from the past decade. There's no indication that a very abrupt and deep correction is imminent - this could play out over many, many years. But asset management and property management will be where the value is created or preserved, value-add may become more of a defensive measure, and so-so investors and sponsors will no longer get bailed out by compressing cap rates and extreme rent growth. We will begin to see who the truly strong real estate professionals are, and who has been swimming naked. I've been extremely frustrated with my failure to acquire good deals in my market and size range. I think that is about to change.

    What I guess I'm saying is: keep me in mind in 2019 and 2020 if you've got a deal going sideways. I'll be buying :).

     I don't like speaking in generalities. When you say "State and local governments are drastically over-leveraged", which ones are you referring to? I ran some quick numbers and even the highest debt to GDP states are under 20%. Federal debt to GDP is about a 1:1 or a little worse (over 100%), and that is historically high during peacetime (if there's even such a thing these days) - but we've also specifically avoided doing anything about federal debt, passing tax cuts while increasing military spending. So your point is a good one at the federal level, but most states and localities are considered fairly healthy these days. States and localities are severely limited, for the most part, in their ability to run deficits, since they cannot print money, and that has constrained most over the top spending.

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  • Rental Property Investor · Portland OR · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y

    Yep. It will be interesting to see how those that encourge maximum leverage and number of doors look in the next few years.  

  • Rental Property Investor · Manteno, IL · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y

    @Account Closed  Good stuff there.

    I do think we're in for a rocky road here in Illinois given how big a hole the govt is in and how overtaxed we already are (property taxes in some of the towns I'm in down here are 3.5 to 4.5% - and thats actual rate not the 3times multiplier so the rates are 12 to 14 in kankakee and will county towns).

    I've questioned what the rising rates are going to do. I actually felt a couple years ago as if they wouldn't go up that much. Then trump came up with the craziest deficit busting tax cut in history and I knew we were going to be in trouble.  Add in the tariffs that are driving up housing costs exponentially and inflation numbers are going to start affecting fed increases too.

    But where do you see two other factors that I believe should be accounted for:

    1) Lack of Supply.  At least here in Illinois, we have not seen nearly the increase in construction that would be needed to generate a supply of homes for the number of people that can now afford them and/or qualify for mortgages again.  With new construction costs skyrocketing, won't that drive up prices of existing homes? And isn't that good for investors (or those of us that have a few houses already)?

    2) Demand. And isn't that only going to continue to drive up rents? There are still a lot of people that want to live in a home. But they don't want to buy an older home and don't want to pay the current premium for a new construction.  Down here by me, a 1,600 sq ft new construction home is going for 250k to 260k.  A 1,600 sq ft 20 to 30 year old home is appraising for 150k to 160k. Thats a HUGE disconnect there isn't it?

    Now you tack on the increase in payments because the interest rates are going to start blowing up and doesn't that only cause an even bigger lack of supply that will continue to drive rents and appreciation on existing homes? 

    i.e. People that currently live in their first home/starter home will be reluctant to go up to the new construction home when the premium to move up is so high in terms of sheer construction costs AND the interest rates on that higher mortgage amount is going to be siginficant higher as well - pushing their payments that much higher.

    Aren't more people going to stay in that starter home that they bought for 150k and have a 4% rate then would want to move to the 260k home and pay 6%. Thats a significant hike in payment. Not to mention the taxes that come along with that increased assessed value. Here in Illinois thats another 3k to 4k a year in taxes by going up 100k.

    To me, I see this economy driving up the prices of existing homes at a higher clip. But I also see rents continuing to go up as well. Until people can get their heads around the costs of the new construction homes, I just don't see how rents and prices of existing homes won't continue to go up.

    Again - supply and demand. We are woefully short of the number of homes needed for the number of people we have. Now if the new governor jacks up taxes even more, that may swing a little bit back to the middle given how we're about taxed out here.

    I actually believe now is the absolute best time to be buying sfh's - at least here in illinois. I think we're in for a huge boom in prices coming soon due to the simply supply and demand factor. And due to the hit that new construction costs, property taxes, and rising interest rates are only going to exacerbate that supply factor big time. Just not enough homes and not enough people willing to pay all the premiums that come with new construction for enough homes to come online.......

  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 530 posts · 398 votes
    7y
    @Phil McAlister this is an awesome post. Are you investing currently?
  • Rental Property Investor · St. Paul, MN · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y

    I thought for a minute you had been spying on me in my pool. 

  • Honolulu, HI · Member since 2017 · 247 posts · 315 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @Bjorik Mutize:
    @Phil McAlister this is an awesome post. Are you investing currently?

     I am. I run the acquisition pipeline for my firm and head up the research, underwriting, financial modeling and valuation functions. We've been doing about $1 Billion in volume annually, about half to 2/3 multifamily and the rest storage and MOB. I'm involved in a handful of those deals, and working to build out a portfolio of small multifamily locally.

     @phil mcalister what do you mean by MOB?

  • Rental Property Investor · South shore, MA · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    Coming from a manufacturing business standpoint, things are very much like it was in 2004-2005. The only difference is profit margins are even smaller now, and we have to borrow more money just to keep up. 

    Just like the RE market, we crashed hard in 2008, we got stiffed by some big companies that we thought were doing "great". We ended up laying off about 110 people between then and 2016. 

    Over the past couple years things are picking up again, just like it did a decade ago at the markets peak. Its just harder to take advantage of the opportunities that are out there.

  • Honolulu, HI · Member since 2017 · 247 posts · 315 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Steve K.:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @Bjorik Mutize:
    @Phil McAlister this is an awesome post. Are you investing currently?

     I am. I run the acquisition pipeline for my firm and head up the research, underwriting, financial modeling and valuation functions. We've been doing about $1 Billion in volume annually, about half to 2/3 multifamily and the rest storage and MOB. I'm involved in a handful of those deals, and working to build out a portfolio of small multifamily locally.

     @phil mcalister what do you mean by MOB?

    @phil mcalsiter never mind, I found it in your profile- medical office buildings

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    7y

    Thank you for posting this while not being a gloom and doomer. The title is awesome and grabbed my interest as a lower leveraged than most investor. 

    Whose swimming naked? I think we'll see a lot of crowd funders and syndicators fall out in the next couple years.  Survival of the fittest and best prepared. Same with realtors.  Just bloated out there.

    Up here in western rural-ville, here's what I see between naps- my saved Zillow listings have more price drop alerts and longer DOM in general on all homes and small multis.  Also much higher response rates when I do bother mailing a postcard or two to LLs.  This could be seasonal, but I don't think all of it can be attributed to that.

    Moving forward, I'm putting an accelerated 6% mortgage paydown on hold and building cash reserves. Sure prices during contractions are lower but so was available credit last time.  Can't tell you how many times I wanted to take a deal down only to hear that banks didn't 'have an appetite for that asset type'.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y

    @Account Closed  Steve as for resi owner occ sales and new construction etc.. too me the last few years were just a false market. Its simply not normal to list a property have 10 offers in 2 days and bidding wars..  its more normal to have no bidding wars.. and 60 to 90 DOM  that becomes balanced market.

    So for me in the SFR space I look for unique and scarcity ( scarcity being a function of aggressive restrictive land planning laws).. this keeps a Texas type free for all happening or what happened in AZ Central CA Vegas etc were builders were building 500 plus home communities.. same with Atlanta..

    so it all comes back to regional.  and to me markets returning form what was white hot un sustainable to more of a normal market were home owners can take there time go shopping pick what they like without being rushed or pressured to make an offer right away.. 

  • Member since 2018 · 1 post · 0 votes
    7y

    @Account Closed Thank You for this thread, this is exactly the type of discussion that I have been looking for.

  • Specialist · Carlsbad, CA · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 638 votes
    7y

    @Phil, thanks for the awesome post!

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