Anyone in city of Buffalo NY have experience converting a 2-unit building to a legal 3 unit?

Question

Long story short, we had been looking to purchase a 3 family unit that is currently only on the books as a two unit. The contract that we received specified that it was a three unit, so seller would need to provide legal certificate for a 3 unit. Seller does not actually want to deal with converting it as he no longer lives in town, and because he bought it three years ago when it was listed as two unit and had no problems renting the three units. So his lawyer disapproved the contract . We are still interested in the property, however, we are extremely wary of operating as a 3 unit building if it's not zoned that way. At the price we had agreed on, the place is not worth it as a two unit. I had a quick conversation with an architect who did an initial walk through of this property a few months ago, as the owner was considering converting it. The architect hasn't actually done any work on this project beyond walking through it - I asked him what is usually entailed in a conversion from two family to three family and he mentioned sprinklers. Does anyone else here have any experience with this?!? It is a 100 year old brick structure that has one unit on the first floor, one unit on the 2nd floor, and a third unit that has a bit of space in the basement and first floor. I clearly have a lot to learn, but I am currently frustrated...I don't know how to determine whether the property can even be converted legally, and how much it will cost (since I don't yet own the property). Can anyone point me in the right direction? I feel like I am getting in my own way here and I'm kind of paralyzed...if I need to walk away I am ok with that, but I'm not sure how I go about determining this!!

Any help/guidance is appreciated!

Jonathan Sowinski · Answer

Yep 220 is two family.

You could go either way in how much detail you provide.  I would start with Permits and Inspections I would give them the general situation...interested in buying, recorded as two unit is there any way to update to a three unit if so what are the major items they require?

I am not intimately familiar with the building code requirements but if the architect mentioned sprinklers there may also be requirements for maintaining two means of egress, fire ratings, hardwired smoke detectors...other things that may end up adding a good amount of renovation costs.

Jonathan Sowinski · Answer

Julie,

No experience personally but I have heard many accounts (none that were good).  I am fairly familiar with the process, graduated from UB Architecture and Planning.

From what I have heard the City does not approve the conversions often  or ever though these may have been references of trying to convert properties that may have never been 3s or 4s before, not ones that were once and now are not.

However, I would not rely on this 100% obviously and if would all depend on the property and way that is/was recorded.  What is the property class code listed with the Dept. of Taxation?

This would most likely require approval from the planning board and definitely the  Dept. of Inspections and Permits… talk to  them.  I have had good experiences with both Departments in the past, but more so by going down in person rather than over the phone.  I know they are super backlogged and think they appreciate people who try to follow the process and do things right and will work with you if you do.

Also, the new Green Code http://www.buffalogreencode.com/ may change the process/requirements once it is adopted.  So if there is little to not a valid chance now there may be in the near future.

Out of curiosity what neighborhood is it in?

Hope this helps, feel free to reach out me if you want any more input.

Julie Greene · Answer

@Jonathan Sowinski  - yep, I think you described it perfectly.....you want it to work so badly....thanks again for the helpful information.

Elizabeth  Colegrove  - wow - very helpful information, thank you so much for sharing!

Derrick H. · Answer

I've had experience with dealing with converting a single to a double and vice versa. THe good news is you can do it, the bad news is you have to obtain numerous permits for everything and obtain a certificate of occupancy in the city. The majority of the time depending on the style of the house, they may require you put a sprinkle system in there. Also if it's listed as a two depending on the area you might fall into the mix use or commercial territory which can be a pain. Having done houses in that area, my best suggestion is to leave it a two. Insurance is a major factor in that decision. Unless you can provide able proof that it was done correctly, some insurance companies will not insure you. It's a good idea to find out first before you sling you first hammer. I wish you luck, many blessings.

Elizabeth Colegrove · Answer

I would ask ALL the questions very specific about the house. I would say you are new investors who want to buy this property. The landlord is selling it as a 3 property AND it only is zoned as a 2 property. Can you rezone it?

Honestly I would not worry about the landlord. If he was in the right he would have no problem giving paperwork to match the price! Honestly I find him a little dishonest since you said the numbers don' t work as a 2.

Personally I would lower the price to offer it as a 2 or tell him you want him to do all the work for it to be a 3.

Jonathan Sowinski · Answer

I have personally found that sometimes its hard to not get emotional with potential deals (its getting less and less with more deals that we look at).  You want them to work so bad, or they work at first then you discover something that is a deal breaker and you don't want to let it go...just don't fool yourself that they will work when they likely will not.

I have a property that I am trying to work and looking at it from 30,000 ft it is probably more of a mess logistically, risk level and amount of investment required before closing than I should be getting into with my experience level and resources but its a great property that is a few houses down from ours so every time I pass it (everyday) it calls to me.

I am sure others would agree, there are always other (better) deals...

Julie Greene · Answer

@Wayne Brooks    - Roger that.  I hear you and it makes perfect sense (I was just worrying that I would be red-flagging the current owner who is operating it as a 3 unit. But I can just say it's a two unit and I would be interested in converting it to a 3 unit and what does it entail).

@Joel Owens   - I also hear you loud and clear (and I hear Jonathan too).  At this point, we are most likely not going to move forward on this project...I have also spoken to some other people off-line who mentioned that even if I do potentially speak with someone and they say yes I can get it converted, someone else in the office might later say no i can't (which is probably why in writing would be important but I could see how this might be difficult).  However, for the sake of our own education, we're going to go down to the permit office and find out what the city would require for conversion of this property, if they even would allow it.

In the beginning, when the deal started to fall apart, I kept thinking I didn't want to be stupid and just walk away because it seemed "hard" and I didn't really know how to go about getting all this done.....but now that I am speaking with people, doing the research and educating myself, I see that really what will be stupid is to buy this place when I am 99% certain there will be no chance to get the property converted.  And I don't want it as a 2-unit.  So it's really a lot more clear now.  And pretty simple.

Thanks again for your input and advice guys!

Joel Owens · Answer

If the property doesn't make sense numbers wise at purchase price for only two units then you do not do the deal.

If it only makes sense as a 3 unit but you can't get approval in writing ( hardly ever happens ) from your county, city then you don't do it. You want to hope for the best but plan for the worst.

Example what happens if you buy this thing as a 3 and the city comes around and says it has to be converted to a two?? What costs will that entail and what will income be just on the 2??

I just wouldn't mess with all of that myself. Why not just go after a legal 3 to 4 unit already??

Wayne Brooks · Answer

Talk to the proper people in the proper depts. about That Specific property.  There's no reason not to, since you're not buying it if it can't be converted.  The last thing you want are answers to general questions, which make you think you can convert, then find out later that Specific property doesn't qualify.

Julie Greene · Answer

Thanks again @Jonathan Sowinski , sounds like a great place for us to start. My husband and I are going to try to get down there Monday. I'll definitely keep you posted.

There are already two means of egress for each of the three apartments right now, plus there are already hard wired fire alarms which is good.   Because the building needs updated boilers (which we already knew), our inspector mentioned that we might need fire-proofing in the boiler room...will be curious if anything else would be required as far as fire rating...

Again I really appreciate your suggestions!

Anyone in city of Buffalo NY have experience converting a 2-unit building to a legal 3 unit?

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