How would YOU approach this deal? Or would you?

How would YOU approach this deal? Or would you?

Investor · Randallstown, MD · Member since 2010 · 185 posts · 57 votes

An agent that I'm working with, told me he has a short sale listed that is a "good deal". Here are some of the specs:

*On the market 91 days
*3 bdrm/2 baths townhome
*Price was reduced from $199k to $175k to $169k
*Agent has not sent me comps yet, but on redfin.com, I'm seeing Nearby similar sales in last six months ranging from $114-$259k (one was sold for $114k, one for $160k and one for $170k; all others were > $200k, which were 7). I'm also seeing currently active similar sales ranging from $214-250k. Without having sent me the comps yet, the Agent "said" that the comps are around $220-$230 in the area. So if he's correct and truthful, there's a profit margin there.
*Property is in move-in condition
*Property is vacant (which is weird, right? Why wouldn't the owner stay rent-free while he figures out what's going to happen w/the property?)

Here are my thoughts:

*Even though I'm inexperienced, I'd like to jump in and get my feet wet, and this may possibly be a good deal.
*I'd like to use transactional funding to flip the property for a small profit - not looking to make a killing, obviously.

So my questions are:

*How should I pursue this property, if at all?
*The Listing Agent said that he sends the offer into the bank and does the negotiations. Although, I've read on here that isn't good. Can anyone tell me why I shouldn't let him do the negotiations?
*Should I just submit an offer through the Agent (since I have no experience under my belt), or tell him I'd like to work this transaction on my own (ensuring him he will still make his commission, of course), dealing directly with the owner, and allowing my negotiator to deal directly with the bank? Of course my issue with this approach is how do I develop the "trust" from him to "hand over" his client to me to work the short sale?

Obviously I need a lot of help and asked a lot of questions. However, please just provide any help possible.

Thanks in advance!
Katrina

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Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
16y

You CANNOT use average prices.

You MUST look at ALL the comps. As the agent for ALL sold properties in the area as well as ALL the current listings.

As others have mentioned, your best comp for a townhome is another townhome in the same project with an identical floor plan and location. Anything from another project is not as good a comp.

Let me say this again and you MUST listen. The value of this property is ABSOLUTE NOT $200K like you seem to think. I don't care how many comps you have or what they sold for. This one is on the MLS at $169K. Its value is absolutely less than $169K. End of story. You don't need any comps to tell you otherwise.

Ninety days is not actually that long to be on the market in many locations.

I think you're going to try to turn around and quickly re-sell this property. Because this is a short sale, the bank is going to try to prevent that. They do not want you to make a profit, since they're taking a loss.

You need to figure out how it is you will generate a buyer, especially at a price higher than $169K. The thing is already on the MLS at that price. That's the number one place for generating buyers. There are no takers at $169K. So, and this is a totally serious question, how are you going to find a buyer who will pay more? I don't think you can, frankly.

I think you're trying to wholesale. Wholesalers generally sell to investors. They have a list of investors, and when they get a property, they blast it out to that list. If its a deal, someone grabs it quickly. Further, wholesalers will have an idea of what they're buyer's want, and will find properties that fit those specs. I don't see any indication you have such a list.

If you try to sell this to a end buyer, you're going to run into a couple of issues. One is that conventional lenders don't like creative deals. They will see you just bought the house and are trying to resell it. They won't like that. They may use the value you paid as the value, which means you buyer has to come up with the extra money in cash. You will also have a valuation problem. You buy it, do nothing, and resell it. You will have trouble justifying the higher price. If you rehab a junky place, its possible, though not easy, to justify a higher price. But you say its move in ready. That's not good.

Because this is a short sale, you're going to need your own financing. Maybe pure transactional funding, maybe longer term. That's not free. And you have to do two closings. That's not free, either. Wholesalers don't make huge fees in any case, and those costs will eat significantly into those small fees.

I think the best you could do would be to sell this to someone for $160K. That's almost certainly an end buyer, becuase no investor is going to pay $160K for this property. $110-$120K is the most an investor would pay. Even then, as Rich points out, townhomes, condos, and anything with an HOA is intrinsically flawed in many investors eyes.

You're going to pay a couple of grand for each of the closes. With an end buyer, its possible you will need to hold it for 90 days before they can close. So, money to hold is going to cost you maybe 12 grand for that time period. Say you would like to make $5000 on this deal. That means you need to pay $21K ($2K + $2K + $12K + $5K) less than the $160K selling price. That's $139K max. If you really want to try to sell to an investor, you seriously need to be down around $90K.

Trouble is those comps work against you. The bank who's considering the short will look at those and laugh at your offer. Now I could care less about insulting a bank (or any other seller, for that matter), but its unlikely a low ball offer will be accepted.

First, figure out what you want to do. Wholesale? Fix and Flip? Buy and Hold? Then start researching that type of investing. Read here, read books, etc. Then start looking for an area. Different types of investing work in different areas. Then, learn that area inside and out. Look, inside and out, at 100 houses in that area. Totally serious. Track sales for a few months. Spend some time and learn values to the point where you can drive down a street in your farm area and say "4/2, $150K; 4/1, $125K, brick two story 5/3, $225K" etc.

See this reply in the discussion

23 Replies

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  • Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
    16y

    If its on the MLS at $169K with no takers the value is less than $169K. How exactly do you propose to buy this and resell it and make a profit? Who would you sell this to that could not have just bought it off the MLS? If its not sold at $169K and its in move-in condition, an investor's not going to pay more than something less that $120K. (70% of the current $169K price).

    If comps truly are $220K, someone would have snapped it up for the $169K price. The fact its still available tells you the value is nowhere near $220K.

  • Investor · Randallstown, MD · Member since 2010 · 185 posts · 57 votes
    16y

    Thanks, Jon!

    My thoughts are the same. I was thinking of making a "ridiculous" offer of around $90k-$100k (since it's been on the market for so long) and see what happens. Your thoughts?

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    16y

    Hi, you need to evaluate comps, not rely on a Realtor to tell you they are good, after all, their goal is to sell it! Jon is just smack down right! I sugget you pull comps in the 130 to 150 range within three miles/then five miles and see what you get. Not saying that's what it worth. If that does not provide comps, start moving the range up in 5K increments until you have three good comps. If you can't get three good ones, then it's likely the bank won't either, so where is your money going to come from?. Good luck, Bill

  • Investor · Randallstown, MD · Member since 2010 · 185 posts · 57 votes
    16y

    Thanks Bill!

    I'm definitely not going to rely on him to tell me the comps. But how do I pull comps without having access to MLS? Should I just establish a relationship wth a Buyer's Agent?

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    16y

    IMO, investors should not use a listing agent when buying, get a buyer's agent. The listing agent works only for the seller and anything you say (thinking it's in confidence) will be used against you! Make the buyer's agent earn their keep, pulling comps is just the beginning.

    You need to have polished skills to go directly to a listing agent, kind of like a spy trying to flip another agent (lol). Sometimes you can win some over if they think they are getting another listing, but if they are honest, with any integrity, they will look out for the seller first, as they should. And, they don't drop their commissions picking up two sides of the deal that often, so that's not a big incentive either, IMO.
    I suggest you get a buyer's agent! Bill

  • Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    16y

    As I normally say on condos for SO many reasons,,,,,,RUN RUN RUN the other way fast. Rich
    p.s. Especially in that price range.

  • Investor · Randallstown, MD · Member since 2010 · 185 posts · 57 votes
    16y

    Thanks, guys. I appreciate your advice.

  • Real Estate Investor · Arlington, TX · Member since 2010 · 9 posts · 5 votes
    16y

    If I may comment here.
    Financexaminer is correct, a listing agent has a fiduciary responsibility to his seller and all information should be assumed to be told to his seller. But you mention that the agent is someone you are working with. If this is the case, then the agent can be a dual agent which means certain information should (key word) not be conveyed between parties. His suggestion that you get your own buyers agent is a good one since they will have a responsibility only to you. Your agent can get the comps for you but you should never use active comps because they have not sold yet. Use sold and look at expired to see what didn't sell since it may be telling a story about what isn't moving in the market.
    As for letting the other agent do the negotiating. Again he does not have your best interest at heart and it can take forever if the agent is not experienced in short sales. Missing/incorrect paperwork is not uncommon and the agent can 'sell' the property to others while your offer sits on the loan mitigation officers desk (known as backup offers).
    Since this is a townhouse, your comps would be best from the same complex and if not, then the same layout in a similar complex. Financing can be an issue with these as well so make sure your buyer has financing if you plan to flip. Also, make sure to get a copy of the home owners association's paperwork so you know what you can and cannot do regarding your townhouse since you own the walls, but not the common property the townhouse is on.
    Unfortunately I have listed a bunch of caveats and I don't mean to dampen your enthusiasm, but I would not want this to be my first deal (which it would be if I were in your shoes). I would trust that another deal would be coming soon. But that is my two cents.
    Mark

  • Real Estate Investor · Ocala, FL · Member since 2008 · 742 posts · 463 votes
    16y

    Katrina,

    You are in a very common position. As a new person to Real Estate Investment, you are not used to forming your own comps. This is a "learned" skill. And this is, in my opinion, one of the most important parts to Real Estate Investing.

    Now, how to get the needed comps, since you are unable to produce them yourself. You have a few choices: 1) Have another Realtor provide comps. 2) Have an appraisal performed. 3) Get a trusted Real Estate Investor in the area assist in providing comps. Unfortunately, all of these items you are totally trusting someone elses opinions.

    Making offers on Short Sales. WOW! I could go on and on forever about this. You are presently limited in your options. If you plan on placing an offer on this proerty, you really need to have someone that is ONLY representing you. So, if you decide to make an offer, get your own Realtor.

    As for who negotiates the Short Sale, in this situation the Listing Agent will most likely "present" any offers to the Lender(s). Unless, you are prepared to place a contingency that states another party will Negotiate.

    And one last item, I am totally surprised Jon didn't state this, but do not get your heart set on this property. With all the items that come with Short Sales, it is very probable that something will go wrong.

  • Real Estate Investor · MD · Member since 2010 · 124 posts · 84 votes
    16y

    Katrina, I am curious, who is the buyer and how are they going to pay you for the flip? Do you know the lending guidelines on financing a home that was just purchased? Do you know what seasoning means? As I stated before, as a newbie looking at deals in that price range, I am fearful for you. You mention transactional funding, but that is only a day which mans you would have to be doing a simultaneous close. I think you need to reevaluate your strategy and have a backup plan in case your buyer backs out or their financing doesn't work out. And, in order for a low ball offer to even be considered, you would have to be showing proof of funds and be an all cash deal. Do you have hard money lenders lined up that you can go to if the offer is approved. Do you know the hard money lenders guidelines because right now they have low ltvs, jut some things for you to think about.

  • Investor · Randallstown, MD · Member since 2010 · 185 posts · 57 votes
    16y

    Thanks to all of you for your responses. I truly appreciate it!

    He sent me some comps...of course they were the "good" comps...all priced high. He didn't send me the one for $114k that I saw on redfin.com. That was a test for me to see if he would be trustworthy enough to establish a long-term, solid relationship with him, and he failed. Nevertheless, I plan to go to the area to see the proximity of the places he sent me, to the place of interest. I just don't trust that he didn't pull those comps from too large of a radius. So I will check myself. Also, I will begin to look for a Buyer's Agent. I have already been testing the waters with this, just by contacting Agents and seeing how responsive they are...none have passed THAT test with even close to flying colors. So I suspect that will be challenging all in itself. It's okay...I'm up for it.

    Tracey, to answer your questions: I don't have a buyer lined up yet. How can I get a buyer without even knowing if I'm going to bid on the property (I know that I can have a list of "go-to" buyers that are investors, interested in good deals, but I will develop that list over time). And I WON'T bid on the property if I cannot determine, with a level of certainty, that it's a good deal, and that I won't have a problem finding a buyer (or several). I've read on here that if it is indeed a good deal, finding a buyer shouldn't be a problem. I believe that. I don't really care how my buyer will pay me for the flip, unless there are stipulations in place (e.g., that it must be an all-cash buyer), which in this case, there aren't; therefore, it could be financing or cash - doesn't really matter. As for the lending guidelines on financing a newly-purchased home, I am still learning. I am aware that different banks and different title companies do things differently. But would you care to share some of your knowledge in this area? Sure, I am aware of what seasoning means, and this is not an FNMA property, so the 90-day seasoning does not apply. Neither is it one of the others that require 30-day seasoning, so no issues there. However, when I come across one that does, I will submit a request to have that restriction removed, and we'll see what happens.

    Tracey, I know you previously mentioned that my price ranges were too high. However, I'm still not understanding why you say that? If I can find a good deal, that I won't have a problem flipping, why does it matter how high my price range is? Maybe you (or anyone else) can shed some light on this, and let me know if I'm missing something? Also, I just want to say that it is very obvious that I'm new to investing - I have indicated that in my profile, and in every post that I've made so far. Therefore, I absolutely do NOT know everything there is to know - not even close. That's why I'm here. Everyone has been so gracious to add their two cents when they get a moment (including you), and I can't stop saying how much that is appreciated. However, it seems that your approach is much different than everyone else's. Instead of just giving your advice, based on your experience, you seem to attempt to quiz me, in an effort to point out just how much you think I don't know. It is true that I don't know a lot, but I am reading and educating myself DAILY, and I am determined to be successful in this business. It's funny because I'll admit...before this week, I didn't know what "seasoning" meant, but I do now because of my persistence in my education :-).

    Please don't take this the wrong way, All I'm saying is that I'm here to learn (and to eventually share my knowledge)...from you, and everyone else here who is willing to share. But when you respond, can you make an effort to respond with more of a helpful nature instead of quizzing me about what you think I don't know (and maybe I don't), and telling me all the reasons why I may not be successful? I know you didn't say those exact words, but that's how what you say comes across. Again, I appreciate your willingness to even take the time out to respond!

    Katrina

  • Investor · Randallstown, MD · Member since 2010 · 185 posts · 57 votes
    16y

    Okay guys, I just looked a little more closely at the comps the Agent sent me, as well as the comps on redfin.com. ALL of the properties had around the same sqft, as well as the same # of beds/baths, etc., and they were all under 2 miles from the house I'm interested in (based on mapquest's calculation). Here's a rundown of the facts:

    # of comps Agent sent me: 8
    Average price sold comps from Agent: $214k
    # of Active comps and average price from Redfin.com: 10/$231k
    # of Sold comps and average price from Redfin.com: 10/$211k

    I'm still going to go to the area this wknd, and also go inside the house (the Agent gave me the code) while he's out of the country for a few days. I want to look at the area just to see if all of them are similar, as far as quality of neighborhood, etc.

    So here's the deal, I am planning to pursue this one. The Agent is out for a few days, but it gives me enough time to go look at it with my husband, and get my ducks in a row. I have three questions: How reliable is redfin.com, and should I even continue to go to that site for information? And is there anyone here willing to walk me through the process on this one, and of course, split the profit 50/50 if it goes through? I would simply follow your instructions, and I will do all of the work. If the deal goes through, you'll get 50%. Any takers?

    ETA: Since the house is in move-in condition, I'm thinking I would make an offer of $140k (70% of $200k). I think that's slightly conservative, yet realistic.

  • Real Estate Investor · Arlington, TX · Member since 2010 · 9 posts · 5 votes
    16y

    Go for it! Do the best you can at getting all the information and make your offer. You are taking action which many do not do. Let us know how things go and good luck.
    Mark

  • Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
    16y

    You CANNOT use average prices.

    You MUST look at ALL the comps. As the agent for ALL sold properties in the area as well as ALL the current listings.

    As others have mentioned, your best comp for a townhome is another townhome in the same project with an identical floor plan and location. Anything from another project is not as good a comp.

    Let me say this again and you MUST listen. The value of this property is ABSOLUTE NOT $200K like you seem to think. I don't care how many comps you have or what they sold for. This one is on the MLS at $169K. Its value is absolutely less than $169K. End of story. You don't need any comps to tell you otherwise.

    Ninety days is not actually that long to be on the market in many locations.

    I think you're going to try to turn around and quickly re-sell this property. Because this is a short sale, the bank is going to try to prevent that. They do not want you to make a profit, since they're taking a loss.

    You need to figure out how it is you will generate a buyer, especially at a price higher than $169K. The thing is already on the MLS at that price. That's the number one place for generating buyers. There are no takers at $169K. So, and this is a totally serious question, how are you going to find a buyer who will pay more? I don't think you can, frankly.

    I think you're trying to wholesale. Wholesalers generally sell to investors. They have a list of investors, and when they get a property, they blast it out to that list. If its a deal, someone grabs it quickly. Further, wholesalers will have an idea of what they're buyer's want, and will find properties that fit those specs. I don't see any indication you have such a list.

    If you try to sell this to a end buyer, you're going to run into a couple of issues. One is that conventional lenders don't like creative deals. They will see you just bought the house and are trying to resell it. They won't like that. They may use the value you paid as the value, which means you buyer has to come up with the extra money in cash. You will also have a valuation problem. You buy it, do nothing, and resell it. You will have trouble justifying the higher price. If you rehab a junky place, its possible, though not easy, to justify a higher price. But you say its move in ready. That's not good.

    Because this is a short sale, you're going to need your own financing. Maybe pure transactional funding, maybe longer term. That's not free. And you have to do two closings. That's not free, either. Wholesalers don't make huge fees in any case, and those costs will eat significantly into those small fees.

    I think the best you could do would be to sell this to someone for $160K. That's almost certainly an end buyer, becuase no investor is going to pay $160K for this property. $110-$120K is the most an investor would pay. Even then, as Rich points out, townhomes, condos, and anything with an HOA is intrinsically flawed in many investors eyes.

    You're going to pay a couple of grand for each of the closes. With an end buyer, its possible you will need to hold it for 90 days before they can close. So, money to hold is going to cost you maybe 12 grand for that time period. Say you would like to make $5000 on this deal. That means you need to pay $21K ($2K + $2K + $12K + $5K) less than the $160K selling price. That's $139K max. If you really want to try to sell to an investor, you seriously need to be down around $90K.

    Trouble is those comps work against you. The bank who's considering the short will look at those and laugh at your offer. Now I could care less about insulting a bank (or any other seller, for that matter), but its unlikely a low ball offer will be accepted.

    First, figure out what you want to do. Wholesale? Fix and Flip? Buy and Hold? Then start researching that type of investing. Read here, read books, etc. Then start looking for an area. Different types of investing work in different areas. Then, learn that area inside and out. Look, inside and out, at 100 houses in that area. Totally serious. Track sales for a few months. Spend some time and learn values to the point where you can drive down a street in your farm area and say "4/2, $150K; 4/1, $125K, brick two story 5/3, $225K" etc.

  • Investor · Randallstown, MD · Member since 2010 · 185 posts · 57 votes
    16y

    Thanks for your response, Jon. I truly value it.

    To comment on a few things you said: Of all the comps I have, I did not only look at the average, I just posted the average to summarize. I think it's a good idea to ask the Agent for ALL comps, though, like you said. I haven't done that yet, but will.

    The property was originally listed for $199k - it eventually dwindled down to $169k; that's one of the reasons I feel that it could be worth more than the $169 they're asking. It didn't sell at $199k, you're right, it probably won't sell at $200k. My thing is this...what's wrong with me placing a bid (for between $130-$140), and if it's approved, selling it to an investor for $145k? Are you saying that investors just don't want to pay $145k for a townhome, period? If that's the case, then I can see why you don't think I should even bid. Just like I asked Tracey, am I too high in my price range for wholesaling? Is that an issue?

    I will definitely start reading some books, along with the information here on BP. Any recommendations?

    Thanks guys!

  • Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
    16y

    An investor might pay $145 for the right townhome. Just not this one.

    If an investor is going to do a fix and flip, they would use something like the 70% rule. That is, they would determine the selling price when the property is fixed up, multiple that by 70%, then subtract the cost of the fixup. For example, assume a property will sell at $200K when fixed up and pretty. An investor would multiple by 70%. That's $140K. Now, say that property needs $20K in work. Subtract that and the max the investor could pay is $120K. Some investors might be a little more optimistic and use 75%. But just yesterday I repossessed a house from an investor you used 75% and lost his shirt. His original value from an appraiser was $213K fixed up. The fixup was, unfortunately, not a great job, and the appraisal from his buyer was only $166K.

    Trouble is, this property needs no fixup. That's BAD for a fix and flipper, since there's no "fix" there's no way to justify a higher price. Further, the market has already established the value for this property in move in condtion is less than the current $169K price. It has not sold for that price, therefore the value MUST be lower. You say "it probably won't sell at $200k". I can say much more than that. I can say "it HAS NOT sold at $169K, therefore its is worth less than $169K."

    Now, if this could be rented, it might be a play as a buy and hold. At the very best, and investor would pay 100 times the monthly rent. I don't see any mention of rents. Personally, I would never pay that much. If I was paying $170K for a property, I'd want to see rents somewhere around $2500. So I don't know whether there's a play here as a buy and hold or not.

    Transactions costs on real estate transactions are very high. If you buy for $140K and sell to an all cash investor on the same day for $145K, I predict you will lose several grand. You will have to pay some closing costs, would could easily be $2000 even if you push as much as you can to the selling lender and your buyer. You will have to pay for transactions funding which will costs you about $3000. That puts you at break even. You need at least a $10K spread to walk away with enough to be worth your while, and that assumes a same day double close. Plus you have to leave enough in here for the investor to make money.

    Unless you can buy this much, much cheaper, there's just no deal here. Most agents deal with owner occupants. When this agent says "this is a great deal", he really means if someone buys this for $169K and moves in, they will have gotten a great deal. That may well be true. But for an investor, and given the best possible price for this of $200K, this is just not at all an interesting deal.

    Investors don't like townhomes and condos because there are HOAs. HOAs are like a silent partner that does nothing for you and can make your life miserable and expensive.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Louisville, KY · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Jon Holdman:
    If its on the MLS at $169K with no takers the value is less than $169K.

    Such a simple basic concept yet so few investors actually understand this!

    Thanks Jon

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    16y
    Originally posted by newlife30:
    ... I believe that. I don't really care how my buyer will pay me for the flip, unless there are stipulations in place (e.g., that it must be an all-cash buyer), which in this case, there aren't; therefore, it could be financing or cash - doesn't really matter. As for the lending guidelines on financing a newly-purchased home, I am still learning. I am aware that different banks and different title companies do things differently. But would you care to share some of your knowledge in this area? Sure, I am aware of what seasoning means, and this is not an FNMA property, so the 90-day seasoning does not apply. Neither is it one of the others that require 30-day seasoning, so no issues there. However, when I come across one that does, I will submit a request to have that restriction removed, and we'll see what happens.

    ... It's funny because I'll admit...before this week, I didn't know what "seasoning" meant, but I do now because of my persistence in my education :-).

    ...


    You're looking at the wrong side of the seasoning issue. There perhaps will be seasoning due to restrictions on resale placed by the lender who is releasing their lien at a discount to the payoff amount; this is the seasoning that is discussed as being negotiated away.

    But if your buyer is being financed - and not all cash - then the lender for the buyer may have a seasoning requirement too! Very likely it will be more than one day too.

    I believe that was the seasoning issue that was being referred to by Tracey earlier, and it is indeed one that you will have to consider.

  • Real Estate Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2009 · 64 posts · 62 votes
    16y

    You're doing the smart thing in asking all of these questions. BP is such a great place to learn and everyone has given excellent advice to you. As you are taking it all in, don't dismiss Jon's statement about your buyers list:

    Begin to build your buyers list so that you have an indication of what your cash buyers are looking for. Are they interested at all in condos or only houses? Do they prefer 3 bedrooms or is 2 okay? Will they only buy block homes or will they buy frame also? Are they buying to fix and flip or buying to hold? Are there specific areas of town or zip codes they are interested in? These are just a few questions to ask your prospective buyers.

    This will help you be more effective as to the type of leads you get from your realtor. And it will be much easier for you once you do find a great deal.

  • Investor · Hampton Bays, NY · Member since 2009 · 907 posts · 258 votes
    16y

    I know I am coming in late in this thread but I have learned that when I consider buying any property I need to have more than one exit strategy. I will consider a flip only if the rental income will sustain the property at a profit. To succeed at wholesale you need to have a buyers list and to make it work in most cases your buyers will need cash because most lenders want seasoning of 90 days although i have been told that some lenders can require less. If you are using your own cash or financing make sure you know the vacancy rate comps for rental etc. in the area you are investing in. the value of an investment property has more to do with rental value and cash flow than comps which may tell you what a property may be worth to an end user. Investors need to have a significant posative cash flow potential to consider making the deal. the days of buying a property anticipating a rising market are gone for now. If you are selling to an end user they most likely will need to finance, have to have a large 20% down payment and are subject to a seasoning requirement even if pre qualified. A buy and hold investor wants a rental value that will generate a cash on cash return that is return on investment after all expenses, that is at least 12 to 20%, This site has tools that will help you determing comps for rental and that can be helpful in evaluating your potential investment.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    16y

    Michael, I realize that the cash flow is a primary concern but don't discount the value of the property. Your estate is not based on the cash flow. Both cash flow and the valuation are equally important in financing. The condition of the property, ascertained in the valuation as the estimated economic life, directly impacts cash flow. A property that hits a 20% return on paper but ends up needing repairs to keep a tenant inside can deminish returns quickly.

    Another aspect is that slumlords tend to look only at cash flow, the value of the properties is low and to keep the same or highest return, repairs are not made as they don't generally payoff immdeiately. Problem is, that local governments will have you in their sights, sooner or later, and you'll be harrassed into making costly repairs or you may lose the property all together as they move into blighted areas for renovation projects. I know because I was chairman of the municipal rehabilitation and redevlopment committee in my community. So, the question becomes, how long will that cash flow exist.
    Location, property value and cash flow are, IMO, the most important factors in buying, in that order. Each of those variables plays a role and are interelated. Good luck, on your deals! Bill

  • Investor · Hampton Bays, NY · Member since 2009 · 907 posts · 258 votes
    16y

    Bill, you have pointed out some valid real life concerns about buying invesment property. From Katrinas description the property is in good repair and in a quality market but may not be one an investor would be interested in as a buy and hold landlord. in todays market we make money when we buy a property at a deep discount and have an adequate exit plan. In this case it may turn out that at the offering price considered a reasonable rent would not cover expenses.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    16y

    If that's the case it's no deal, if you have to feed it! I only feed properties that have a future upside.

    I understand that buying at a deep discount is obviously a way to make money, but a buy and hold, to me means holding the property over time, if it pays for itself and doesn't cost me anything, I have purchased properties like that and they make money, just not as much as you're requiring. Not all of my purchases were like that, but some.
    If there is no upside, move on to another deal.....bottom line as to the original post. What ever your requirements are, you have a good reason for them I'm sure. good luck, Bill

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