How many people think the worst is over and why?

How many people think the worst is over and why?

Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 338 posts · 444 votes

I'm trying to reframe the question from too much of the gloom and doom talk, and looking for an informal poll about the way forward. My belief is that anyone analyzing their market needs to look slightly to the future, or at least stay solidly in the legitimate present to take advantage of opportunities. I can't believe that I am still hearing people ask "are we in a recession?" type questions. To me, it's way past the time to be asking that, and largely irrelevant from this point forward. 

Disclaimers - No, you can't time the market exactly, but the general trends can and do affect underwriting. Yes, some people have just continued to operate as normal with conservative underwriting standards, but not everyone or the opportunities they pursue operate that way.

Here's my sense of things from my market:

1.) There was a "Covid discount" that took affect after the shelter in place orders. That wasn't an across-the-board discount, but there have been some fearful sellers in a rush to get in contract/close. However, that is quickly going away now that the dust has settled and shelter in place is ending. 

2.) I don't hear the rumors of certain landlords/developers in financial trouble like I did after 2008. That makes me think people are reasonably capitalized. I'm skeptical of the idea of something bigger hitting 6-12 months out due to forbearance, etc.

3.) April and May rent collections were better than people expected. And people started getting back to work these last couple weeks, so pay checks will be steady again.

4.) Constructions costs have not dropped. If anything they are up due to material supply constraints and a backlog of work.

5.) Lenders tightened up, but seem to be starting to lend with better terms again.

6.) There's definitely shifting going on with rentals (people moving in and out), which is unsettling, but the rents in my neighborhoods have stayed steady. San Francisco has softened, but I think that's temporary due to transition. The suburbs seem stable.

Am I being too optimistic here? 

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Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
6y

42 million people have filed for unemployment since March.  That's 1 in 4 workers in the US.  Worldwide demand remains low, even in Asian countries which have been back to work for months.

This is all just getting started.

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  • Greg ScottPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · SE Michigan · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    6y

    Stimulus and the $600 bonus unemployment was a short-term pain killer.  The meds are about to wear off.

    From Inestopedia: https://www.investopedia.com/u...   "April 2020 revealed the worst unemployment rates on record in 42 states.  Some analysts are predicting that the national unemployment rate could reach 32.1%—the highest ever recorded in the U.S. This is an even worse figure than during the Great Depression when unemployment hit 24.9%"

    Many jobs wont come back as evidenced by the growing lists of companies declaring bankruptcy:

    • JC Penny
    • J Crew
    • Neiman Marcus
    • Hertz
    • Frontier Communicatins
    • Golds Gym
    • Intelesat
    • John Varvatos
    • Stage Stores
    • True Religion Apparel
    • Ultra Petroleum
    • Virgin Australia
    • Whiting Petroleum
    • Aldo
    • Roots USA
    • Pier 1
    • Art Van
    • Centric Brands

    And those are just the big companies making headlines.  There are many more smaller companies going bust.  

    Be prepared to weather a big storm.

    • Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 338 posts · 444 votes
      6y

      @Greg Scott, No doubt the trouble in the retail sector will have an impact. Do you think that will translate heavily into problems in all rental markets? The bay area is so tech-centric, that I wonder weather we will weather that impact better. 

      Is the question what will replace those businesses/jobs and how long will it take for a transition to take place?

    • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
      6y

      @Robert C. I’m generally feeling your optimistic sentiments too, but, it’s for a *highly* SF Bay Area centric market only! Other parts of the country may vary dramatically. 

      In my experience, basically March-April sucked for tenant turnover, because SIP was new, alarming, and no one really knew what the f*ck was going on.  End of April and onwards, the professionally employed (Often younger) Bay Area crowd gained their confidence, and life resumed, including apartment rentals. So my rents in SF have largely stayed the same, and I have had decent inquiries for my recent vacancies. And (almost) needless to say, all my tenants paid their April and May rents with zero incidents. 

      I’ve also noticed that homes and condos are still selling briskly in SF. Maybe the larger condo towers with multiple units for sale (and some expensive rentals) are taking a more pronounced hit, but the homes in the local neighborhoods are moving!

      As SIP continues to loosen (it’s happening all across the country, in CA, and even starting in SF) confidence is returning big time, as people want a sense of normalcy. Of course we’ll have to see how the infection rate will change, but hopefully it will be local, and dealt with on local levels (as opposed to SIP being reinstated on a statewide basis.)

      But yeah, these are definitely rosier scenarios ;) Not unrealistic, but optimistic. And don’t forget, this is an election year as well, so more unpredictability with such a polarized nation. We all just have to hang tight, as only time will tell...

      ———

      my2c

    • Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 338 posts · 444 votes
      6y

      @Amit M., There's definitely a whole lot of movement in the short term with people moving in and out, especially in SF proper. One thing I've been considering the last few days is that besides the layoffs, tech companies have given their employees permission to work from home to the end of the year or longer. That does give people a long enough window to relocate if they can get out of their leases, and I think that's happening on some level (even if they end up returning later). But why not go to a beach getaway or even the suburbs somewhere for 6+ months? I was just driving through downtown SF, and it has reached a new level of gross. And now these riots... There's not a ton of reason to shelter in place in the city if you can afford not to. 

      @Account Closed, You're kind of making a point for me. Of course nobody can know the exact answer. But any investor who wants to participate in their market needs to form an opinion/make conclusions. There's no point in taking action if you can't come up with your own thesis. In times like these, a PhD doesn't necessarily have any better insight than someone who's trying to take the pulse of their local market. It's not "what I have that they don't", it's "what they have that I have, too" - it's called a brain.

    • Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 338 posts · 444 votes
      6y

      @Account Closed, In my opinion, what you're quote is describing is something that's backward looking at this point. If an investor hasn't already prepared their portfolio for the market disruption we are currently experiencing, then they've probably missed the boat. The inevitable has already happened, or some may argue in the process of happening.

    • Lakeland, FL · Member since 2014 · 91 posts · 18 votes
      6y

      I'm no PhD, but I've come to the conclusion it's near pointless to try and predict anything based on current statistics. Until a month or more after the unemployment bonus is gone and any eviction/foreclosure moratoriums end, you won't see any real numbers. Then the fallout will begin.

      To add to the businesses declaring bankruptcy you still have massive companies doing layoffs. Boeing announced its laying off 12,000 employees and expects more over the coming months. BRP announced it will stop all production of their outboard line, the only ones made here. You have companies like Peir1, sweet tomatoes, soup Nation,..... gone for good now with some more on the horizon.

      I'm generally not a pessimist, but how could there not be a negative effect?

    • Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
      6y

      42 million people have filed for unemployment since March.  That's 1 in 4 workers in the US.  Worldwide demand remains low, even in Asian countries which have been back to work for months.

      This is all just getting started.

    • Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 338 posts · 444 votes
      6y

      @Mike Dymski, Would your advice be to lay low until these things work through the system - wait for the tsunami?

    • Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
      6y
      Originally posted by @Robert C.:

      @Mike Dymski, Would your advice be to lay low until these things work through the system - wait for the tsunami?

      My advice has always been to buy in good locations with cash flow, prudent debt, and reserves, and to add value.  This portfolio positioning should set us up to do fine during economic down turns.  I can't time the market and am not a tsunami investor...all I can do is buy more when there are more opportunities and vice versa.  Right now, my underwriting is generating fewer opportunities.  High asset prices + 20% unemployment + no traction on the medical front = underwriting that is not even close to hitting target returns.  Those high priced assets will still be there if this thing blows over.  The upside potential is much lower than the downside risk right now.  Who knows though...time will tell.

    • Cape Coral, FL · Member since 2017 · 1 post · 1 vote
      6y

      I always say a bigger shark will eat up a smaller shark a store may no longer sell a product when it goes out of business but if the demand remains another store will step up and sell that product

    • Lakeland, FL · Member since 2014 · 91 posts · 18 votes
      6y

      Not if you can get it direct shipped from outside the US, or a big automated warehouse. Big issue with the retail apocalypse that this covid just accelerated imo.

    • Flipper/Rehabber · Memphis, TN · Member since 2020 · 758 posts · 285 votes
      6y

      We all try to be optimistic. But we really can't tell.

    • Clint ShelleyPro Member
      Surveyor · Dothan, AL · Member since 2014 · 425 posts · 391 votes
      6y

      Unless we start making things in this country again, it's all going to continue to spiral down the toilet bowl. Most everyone is in the "service" business. Only so much of that. Not enough to support 300 million people. When the last of the textile mills left, that signaled the beginning of the end in my mind.

      Clint

    • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
      6y

      @Robert C.

      This post hasn’t aged well. Turn on the news!

    • Ian WalshBusiness Member
      Lender · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
      6y

      I don't believe it is over but I am an underwriter/lender so I always think the world is going to end.  It's a guess for anyone anyways.

    • Lakeland, FL · Member since 2014 · 91 posts · 18 votes
      6y
      Originally posted by @Max T.:

      @Robert C.

      This post hasn’t aged well. Turn on the news!

      I'm sure riots, looting, and burning businesses won't have any effect. 

    • Rental Property Investor · Fishers, IN · Member since 2016 · 335 posts · 470 votes
      6y

      There are economic indicators that could support both a major storm is coming or that we are poised for a boom.  Its fine to be informed and adjust your risk tolerance accordingly.  But to try and pick a specific strategy to go all-in on based on what the outcome of this mess is would be foolish.  My sentiment is more bearish today.  

      It could make sense to have both risk-on and risk-off pots of money.  One to take advantage of opportunities or roll the dice, and another to shield yourself from downside risk and have reserves.  

      If I were in my early twenties, I'd be investing heavily in all assets that do well in inflationary environments, ie real estate, stocks, gold, commodities.  If we crash, so what....there's plenty of time to recover and you didn't have that much to begin with.  If I were 65, I'd hide my money in my mattress.  

    • Member since 2020 · 437 posts · 675 votes
      6y

      @Robert C.

      March was a harsh kick, April was all about enduring the depth of the blow & dealing with the injury & pain. May has been progressive. June will be the key month.

      If things progress in June as they did in May both in terms of the health stats & and reopening stats, we will have less to worry. Of course we now have other problems (rioting etc) that are appearing that could threaten June.

      But IMHO, June is the make/break month. If June moves in the right direction, we will see a step function in confidence in July and even further into August.

      The opposite impact is also possible. The next 2 - 3 weeks will be telling! Let’s hope for the best.

    • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
      6y

      hope

      for

      best

      ———-

      3words

    • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
      6y

      prepare

      for

      worst

      ———-

      3words

    • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
      6y

      @Robert C. WRT SIP in SF (acronyms, heh, heh) I see it differently. I’d much prefer to do that in a vibrant city, where I still have a lot of things I can do. Lots of nearby restaurants serving take out. I can still take varied neighborhood walks from my home. I’m still close to nature and parks. I can chat with local friends in parks while social distancing.

      Not sure why city people will want to SIP in a burb, where they can’t walk to anything (or at best one lame strip mall.) They’ll feel more isolated. As for moving to a getaway vacation spot, I think that’s a nice fantasy, but again it will feel creepy and isolating. When something unexpected like covid 19 occurs, most people want to keep a semblance of normalcy. Of course those with uncomfortable living situations may feel compelled to make a move. I have 2-3 tenants that SIP’ed with family, so it will be interesting to see if they return to SF. So some dislocation yes for sure, but I don’t think it will be massive. Most young city professionals just put their big boy/gal pants on and are dealing with this :)

    • Investor · Sewell, NJ · Member since 2016 · 68 posts · 48 votes
      6y

      @Greg Scott

    • Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2019 · 576 posts · 307 votes
      6y

      Your assessment sounds reasonable. I live in San Antonio, TX and we are basically back to normal. Days on market are steady, prices continuing to increase. To say things are OK is not an overly optimistic statement, it's true.

    • Rental Property Investor · Woodstock, GA · Member since 2017 · 517 posts · 772 votes
      6y

      There's a lot of optimism that everything will just open up and go back to normal...

      But it's like anything in nature. 

      If a car...a person...an animal is running at full speed and then its a brick wall...

      It'll eventually get back to running at full speed...but it'll take some time. 

      Right now, because they see people out and about, they think "well, everything is back to normal." There's a huge difference when 10M+ don't get their jobs back and the unemployment gravy train runs out.

      I know people in my own family who lost jobs, were enjoying unemployment (golfing 5x per week), now they're back at work with reduced hours. 

      The savings will eventually run out. 

      But eventually the train will get moving again....when? will probably take 12-24 months to get back to Jan-Feb economic pace.

    • Lakeland, FL · Member since 2014 · 91 posts · 18 votes
      6y

      I posted this earlier, but I am curious. How can you really trust current statistics when they are artificially bolstered by the stimulus, PPP loans, and bonuses on unemployment?

      I'm fairly new to this, but it seems a bit shortsighted to quote statistics for the next few months as the true fallout might not be felt until some of these programs end after July.

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