Sell and 1031 exchange to a better market, or hold?

Sell and 1031 exchange to a better market, or hold?

Realtor · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2015 · 12 posts · 29 votes

My current tenant is buying a home and vacating in 3 weeks. I'm weighing whether to sell and 1031 exchange into a different market, or stay the course and get a HELOC in place as soon as we turn it over (in preparation of buying more). I'm going back and forth and would love some of the seasoned investors to weigh in.

  • -Purchased in 2015. We fully renovated. All in for $160k. CMV $300k
  • -Location- Las Vegas NV
  • -4 bed, 2 bath. We could add another bathroom to make a master suite and add a 5th bedroom if market appreciation was expected, but don't think now is the right time for that. 
  • -We are in our 50's. We were heavily invested in the early 2000's (10+ properties-small MF and SFR's). We went through the 2008 crash and those scars and lessons learned have stuck with us. It made us extremely conservative with RE, though I wouldn't call us risk-adverse in our other investments. We currently have alternative investments and money in the stock market. So, with future RE investments preservation of capital is important factor. I thought this info might be helpful in understanding our mindset, especially for the seasoned investors on BP.

Keep or Sell? The arguments going on in my head...

  • Keep: We own the property outright. I sleep better without the bank involved.
    • Sell: Using NO leverage at a time when rates are historically low. We should be expanding our holdings and taking advantage of OPM.
    • Sell: We believe Las Vegas will take a bigger hit than many other markets
  • Keep: We already have capital to put to work, so we can ride this out.
    • Sell: If we can put that capital to use in a more stable market or in a MF or a syndication deal, it could provide more safety, upside potential and passivity
    • Sell: More cash to get into bigger deals
  • Keep: Selling fees, tax consequence if we don’t find a replacement property in a 1031.
    • Sell: We can 1031 exchange to avoid the tax consequences. But, we would only have 45 days to identify a new property. We think that puts us very early in the cycle for purchasing distressed properties.
  • Keep: I hate to sell an income source
    • Sell: “Buy and hold” is not always the best choice. There is nothing wrong with taking profits and redeploying it elsewhere. Do you want $1400 mo. in rent or $300k in cash
    • Question: Can we turn that $300k into twice the rental income in a different market?
  • Keep: Being an out of state landlord can be a PIA. We have more control in self managing in our own city
    • Sell: We did it in the past and can do it again, from a much wiser position. We dealt with a death in one unit (hazmat is messy and expensive), a house fire, a criminal POA management team on a 4-plex development (legal fees are expensive), a swat team raid leading to a tenant getting thrown in jail for mail fraud, evictions and all the usual landlord issues. We had to fire numerous bad PM's as we learned the ropes, but we survived and we learned the value of good property management!
    • Sell: We can get into a syndication or partnership deal and take self managing off our plate entirely
  • Keep: There will likely be more renters in the next few years. We’ve had 3 great tenants in this property, which has made for easy passive income over the last 5 years.
    • Sell: The policies rights now make finding a highly qualified tenant crucial. Permanent job loss in Vegas is very real and stimulus can’t go on indefinitely.
  • Keep: Get a HELOC to buy when the deal is right and hold onto this property.
    • Sell: Tight lending guidelines right now. Banks aren’t readily offering cash out refi’s. We are in the middle of a remodel on our primary and need to turn over rental in a few weeks, so we are at least a month away from applying. We don’t know what banks will be offering then.
    • Sell: Banks can freeze HELOCS without notice. We dealt with that in the 2008 crash. Makes me wonder if we should we pull the cash out of the HELOC we currently have on our primary.

What would you advise in our situation? 

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Investor · SC NC, VA · Member since 2020 · 1k+ posts · 756 votes
6y

Sell! (Dave will not be surprised this is my answer).

I've done a few 1031's and my aim is ALWAYS to double my cash flow. I mean, why else would you do it? That's not a $300k property, that's $1.5M worth of properties at an 80% LTV (depending on geography) Also Fannie/Freddie small loans ($1M-$7M) are going off at less than 4% right now and there's even interest-only loans for 5 years. Why wouldn't you invest it elsewhere?


if you worried about where to go, try investigating the free Comprehensive Housing Market Analysis’ available at huduser.

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  • Investor · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    6y

    @Tracey Corea

    Hey Tracey,

    If you put how much rent you’re getting, I didn’t see it. I had my first vacancy in 5 years last month, and it took longer than any property I’ve had vacant to fill for at least the last 10 years. But after 2 weeks I found a 4x income to rent tennant and was able to raise my rent from $1600 up to $1900.

    I only have one property outside of Vegas, it’s in MN where I grew up. I just don’t see how you could pick an out of state property that would do as well, be managed as well, or in as good a neighborhood unless you randomly have friends in real estate in another state. Here you should know which streets mark the boundaries between better and worse neighborhoods. Here you have a very landlord friendly state with newer properties, no income tax, very low property maintenance, no real weather events, low cost insurance, and low property tax.

    Imagine someone from the Midwest or the east coast coming here and trying to pick a better rental than you could tomorrow. You’d be that person in another market. 

    For refi’s try a local credit union. I’ve had good luck with CCCU. I also used Nevada state bank once but they sold the loan to Wells Fargo within 3 months. 

  • Specialist · OverTheRainbow · Member since 2020 · 607 posts · 909 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Tracey Corea:

    My current tenant is buying a home and vacating in 3 weeks. I'm weighing whether to sell and 1031 exchange into a different market, or stay the course and get a HELOC in place as soon as we turn it over (in preparation of buying more). I'm going back and forth and would love some of the seasoned investors to weigh in.

    • -Purchased in 2015. We fully renovated. All in for $160k. CMV $300k
    • -Location- Las Vegas NV
    • -4 bed, 2 bath. We could add another bathroom to make a master suite and add a 5th bedroom if market appreciation was expected, but don't think now is the right time for that. 
    • -We are in our 50's. We were heavily invested in the early 2000's (10+ properties-small MF and SFR's). We went through the 2008 crash and those scars and lessons learned have stuck with us. It made us extremely conservative with RE, though I wouldn't call us risk-adverse in our other investments. We currently have alternative investments and money in the stock market. So, with future RE investments preservation of capital is important factor. I thought this info might be helpful in understanding our mindset, especially for the seasoned investors on BP.

    Keep or Sell? The arguments going on in my head...

    • Keep: We own the property outright. I sleep better without the bank involved.
      • Sell: Using NO leverage at a time when rates are historically low. We should be expanding our holdings and taking advantage of OPM.
      • Sell: We believe Las Vegas will take a bigger hit than many other markets
    • Keep: We already have capital to put to work, so we can ride this out.
      • Sell: If we can put that capital to use in a more stable market or in a MF or a syndication deal, it could provide more safety, upside potential and passivity
      • Sell: More cash to get into bigger deals
    • Keep: Selling fees, tax consequence if we don’t find a replacement property in a 1031.
      • Sell: We can 1031 exchange to avoid the tax consequences. But, we would only have 45 days to identify a new property. We think that puts us very early in the cycle for purchasing distressed properties.
    • Keep: I hate to sell an income source
      • Sell: “Buy and hold” is not always the best choice. There is nothing wrong with taking profits and redeploying it elsewhere. Do you want $1400 mo. in rent or $300k in cash
      • Question: Can we turn that $300k into twice the rental income in a different market?
    • Keep: Being an out of state landlord can be a PIA. We have more control in self managing in our own city
      • Sell: We did it in the past and can do it again, from a much wiser position. We dealt with a death in one unit (hazmat is messy and expensive), a house fire, a criminal POA management team on a 4-plex development (legal fees are expensive), a swat team raid leading to a tenant getting thrown in jail for mail fraud, evictions and all the usual landlord issues. We had to fire numerous bad PM's as we learned the ropes, but we survived and we learned the value of good property management!
      • Sell: We can get into a syndication or partnership deal and take self managing off our plate entirely
    • Keep: There will likely be more renters in the next few years. We’ve had 3 great tenants in this property, which has made for easy passive income over the last 5 years.
      • Sell: The policies rights now make finding a highly qualified tenant crucial. Permanent job loss in Vegas is very real and stimulus can’t go on indefinitely.
    • Keep: Get a HELOC to buy when the deal is right and hold onto this property.
      • Sell: Tight lending guidelines right now. Banks aren’t readily offering cash out refi’s. We are in the middle of a remodel on our primary and need to turn over rental in a few weeks, so we are at least a month away from applying. We don’t know what banks will be offering then.
      • Sell: Banks can freeze HELOCS without notice. We dealt with that in the 2008 crash. Makes me wonder if we should we pull the cash out of the HELOC we currently have on our primary.

    What would you advise in our situation? 

    There is a lot to unload there, but I'll give it a shot. You write: "Keep: We own the property outright. I sleep better without the bank involved." and "So, with future RE investments preservation of capital is important factor."

    We are entering a risky period for investing in real estate. Played the right way it's a wealth builder but it won't be for the faint of heart for the next couple of years.  Sleeping well at night is a very big deal. I'd take this one into serious consideration.  

    That being said, since I buy properties "off market" taking over the mortgage, it is far less risky for me to pick up properties that people are wanting to sell even if they don't have much equity, since no real estate agent is involved and there are no RE fees. I then cash flow the properties, typically about $500 each.

    Right now banks are limiting HELOCs so you first have to call around and see if you can find a bank doing them and what their criteria is. HELOCs were shut down by banks in the last downturn without notifying people. Whatever amount was already borrowed was the cap. I'd borrow the money now and keep it in reserves if you go that route. Having a little bit of interest to pay is insignificant if it allows you to take advantage of a great deal.

    Personal belief is that the stock market is riding a train with no conductor and with the bridge out around the corner. Surprises are ahead.

    1031 exchanges are a little tricky. I'd direct that one to @Dave Foster https://www.biggerpockets.com/... who has written extensively on the subject.

  • Real Estate Agent · Henderson, NV · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 550 votes
    6y

    @Tracey Corea This is a great post.  It sounds like you've learned a ton from prior issues, and are able to apply that acquired knowledge to good use in decision making.  

    You mentioned 1031's being tricking.  They can be.  If you reverse the order in which you do the exchange, maybe it's not as tricky.  I.E. Find the better alternative property, get it in escrow with a longer contract date and/or contingency to sell your current property.  In this way, you can mitigate the 45 day identification risk.  This is a great route, if you actually have way better alternative properties to purchase.

    I'm most certainly not a mortgage rate expert, but from what I gather by talking to others is that rates aren't going up anytime soon.  So you could put your refinance decision off until there are opportunities or you feel better about the decision.  If property values go down, you wouldn't be able to borrow as much.  However, I have a feeling you wouldn't have maxed out anyway given what you said about risk tolerance.

    I guess you could pull money out now and just park it until opportunity arises.  If there is no opportunity you could just pay off the note and pay the finance charges.  

    Like @Bill B. had mentioned, the rental market was slowed for a few weeks, but it seems to be heating up quickly.  You may be able to get more rent than what you had been.  

  • Dave FosterBusiness Member
    Qualified Intermediary for 1031 Exchanges · St. Petersburg, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    6y

    @Tracey Corea, Dats a load of analysis you got going there!  The issues are very well thought out.  And I'll bet it feels like it's all kind of melding into a big pile of information.  Maybe rather than focus on projections of what you could do and what might be (all very valid - I've got a few scars from 2007 as well.  Most of us do) back up and take a look at that property in a vacuum and really get a feel for the status quo right now. 

    How is it performing? - You talk about your tenants and it's obviously a good property.  I'm with @Bill B. here though.  Your rent levels and carry costs compared to the equity are going to speak volumes to me about whether to sell or keep.  You bought the property for $160K and it's now worth $300K.  There is a world of difference if it's still renting for $1600 or $3000.

    You're right about Las Vegas and Nevada in general.  It's always been the tide line for CA.  When CA rises it spills to NV.  But when CA contracts the tide leaves NV.  So valid concern there.

    A property free and clear in this market of uncertainty is gold.  But you don't necessarily have to take on debt or a lot of debt.  If you can make more property from 2 $!50K houses owned free and clear than you could with your one property that would seem to be a pretty decent move.  So don't let debt bog you down.  That is another option you'll want to explore once you decide on whether this property needs to go or not.  

    @Account Closed is right about helocs.  The bank does not want to loan you money when you need it.  They love to loan it to you when you don't.  So in crazy markets the only way a heloc benefits you is if you max it out and put the money in the bank and don't spend it.  They will shut down your access just when it would be good to have.  So I'm not sure taking debt out on this property is going to get you where you want to go. We just maxed our primary heloc and are just banking it.

    The 1031 option, if you decide it's time to sell, will accommodate any level of debt, location, and sector of real estate.  You may want to avoid options that lead to mail fraud, deaths, and swat teams - just sayin :).  But the 1031 can put. you into other real estate local or not that can meet your goals as soon as you identify them.  There are passive and active management options.  

    I think one last factor I'd be looking at is the market for a buyer.  If your property will sell then cash is king right now.  And buying opportunities for those with flexibility and cash is pretty darn good. So the restrictions of a 1031 I don't think will be a problem for you.

    There's no bad choices for you here.  You've been wise to date. But I have a suspicion that your property is probably under producing where you could be (even if you didn't increase your debt any).

    The 1031 Investor5137 Reviews
  • Investor · SC NC, VA · Member since 2020 · 1k+ posts · 756 votes
    6y

    Sell! (Dave will not be surprised this is my answer).

    I've done a few 1031's and my aim is ALWAYS to double my cash flow. I mean, why else would you do it? That's not a $300k property, that's $1.5M worth of properties at an 80% LTV (depending on geography) Also Fannie/Freddie small loans ($1M-$7M) are going off at less than 4% right now and there's even interest-only loans for 5 years. Why wouldn't you invest it elsewhere?


    if you worried about where to go, try investigating the free Comprehensive Housing Market Analysis’ available at huduser.

  • Lender · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 800 posts · 229 votes
    6y

    @Tracey Corea I already weighed in on this. tell me your thoughts and if this helps at all. There are good options out there for you to wait it out.

    https://www.biggerpockets.com/...

  • Realtor · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2015 · 12 posts · 29 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Bill B.:

    @Tracey Corea

    If you put how much rent you’re getting, I didn’t see it. I had my first vacancy in 5 years last month, and it took longer than any property I’ve had vacant to fill for at least the last 10 years. But after 2 weeks I found a 4x income to rent tennant and was able to raise my rent from $1600 up to $1900.

    I only have one property outside of Vegas, it’s in MN where I grew up. I just don’t see how you could pick an out of state property that would do as well, be managed as well, or in as good a neighborhood unless you randomly have friends in real estate in another state. Here you should know which streets mark the boundaries between better and worse neighborhoods. Here you have a very landlord friendly state with newer properties, no income tax, very low property maintenance, no real weather events, low cost insurance, and low property tax.

    Imagine someone from the Midwest or the east coast coming here and trying to pick a better rental than you could tomorrow. You’d be that person in another market. 

    For refi’s try a local credit union. I’ve had good luck with CCCU. I also used Nevada state bank once but they sold the loan to Wells Fargo within 3 months. 

    ----

    @Bill Brandt - We have been getting $1400 in rent (under market). In 89145-Charleston Heights, remodeled in 2005 when we purchased it, new A/C units.

    Good point that we have very low maintenance, no state taxes, landlord friendly laws and we know Vegas. 

    Long distance investing was not our favorite and we learned some hard lessons from unscrupulous and/or lazy property managers. Not to say they were all bad, but when we took over our tenant screening and self-managed our properties, it was a lot better. 

    I will talk to our CU about refi’s and reach out to my loan broker. Re-fi's and Helocs are still out there today, but we know they could go poof! 

    Thank you!

  • Realtor · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2015 · 12 posts · 29 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    We are entering a risky period for investing in real estate. Played the right way it's a wealth builder but it won't be for the faint of heart for the next couple of years.  Sleeping well at night is a very big deal. I'd take this one into serious consideration.  

    That being said, since I buy properties "off market" taking over the mortgage, it is far less risky for me to pick up properties that people are wanting to sell even if they don't have much equity, since no real estate agent is involved and there are no RE fees. I then cash flow the properties, typically about $500 each.

    Right now banks are limiting HELOCs so you first have to call around and see if you can find a bank doing them and what their criteria is. HELOCs were shut down by banks in the last downturn without notifying people. Whatever amount was already borrowed was the cap. I'd borrow the money now and keep it in reserves if you go that route. Having a little bit of interest to pay is insignificant if it allows you to take advantage of a great deal.

    ---

    @John Farady- I loved your response. Thank you for the reminder that "sleeping well at night counts." It's time though to get back in the game though and find a reasonable middle ground. I predict many "subject to" in the future. I'd love to pick your brain on that sometime!

    We experienced having our Helocs frozen overnight, so I will move quickly on getting a cash out refi on our investment property if we keep it and have been contemplating pulling out the cash on our primary HELOC

    Yes, the stock market is volatile but it's liquid and gives us some diversification. 

    Thanks for the recommendation to reach out to Dave Foster re 1031.

  • Realtor · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2015 · 12 posts · 29 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Phillip Dwyer:

    @Tracey Corea This is a great post.  It sounds like you've learned a ton from prior issues, and are able to apply that acquired knowledge to good use in decision making.  

    You mentioned 1031's being tricking.  They can be.  If you reverse the order in which you do the exchange, maybe it's not as tricky.  I.E. Find the better alternative property, get it in escrow with a longer contract date and/or contingency to sell your current property.  In this way, you can mitigate the 45 day identification risk.  This is a great route, if you actually have way better alternative properties to purchase.

    I'm most certainly not a mortgage rate expert, but from what I gather by talking to others is that rates aren't going up anytime soon.  So you could put your refinance decision off until there are opportunities or you feel better about the decision.  If property values go down, you wouldn't be able to borrow as much.  However, I have a feeling you wouldn't have maxed out anyway given what you said about risk tolerance.

    I guess you could pull money out now and just park it until opportunity arises.  If there is no opportunity you could just pay off the note and pay the finance charges.  

    Like @Bill B. had mentioned, the rental market was slowed for a few weeks, but it seems to be heating up quickly.  You may be able to get more rent than what you had been.  

    -------

    Thank you Phillip. Yes, we've learned a ton along the way. Some hard lessons, but we also had some very lucrative deals, which is why I always come back to RE. The bad landlord experiences were mostly due to being naive and too trusting. Now, I trust my gut and vet people and deals as they should be. The most painful lesson was that life isn't always fair. We thought we were being conservative by having 25%+ equity in all of our properties (when you could do 100% loans and 90% cash out re-fis). We were BRRRing before it had a name, taking care of estate planning, legal and tax consequences and building a retirement. We did everything "right", but we still got burned. Bad things can happen to good people (wars, economic meltdowns, natural disasters, pandemics) and I wasn't prepared to "fail". 

    A reverse 1031 is a good option if we hold the property, but find another deal we must have down the road. My fear is selling now, then having to identify within 45 days of that. I think the deals are months away. Great reminder about reversing the order for my tool belt!

    Nice to have a Vegas perspective. I do think we could get more in rent than we were getting ($1400). It's good to hear the rental market is still strong and there are people with 4x rent/income ratios out there. Are you seeing investors raise their security deposits? I was surprised that you can charge 3 mos security deposit in NV (though we never have).

  • Realtor · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2015 · 12 posts · 29 votes
    6y

    I'm still learning how to reply on BP. I don't think I tagged properly so @Bill B. and @Account Closed please see above for my responses. 

    @Dave Foster- this is a meaty response. Many thanks! Yes, my mind has had been jumbled for a few days. Putting down my thoughts in writing for the post was helpful, but your advice to look at it from a more removed point of view is perfect. 

    The rent is currently $1400 (under market). It's a nice fully remodeled home, but it's a B class neighborhood, not A. We need to raise it if we hold

    I have been seriously contemplating pulling the money in our primary Heloc but my husband doesn't want to pay interest until we have an investment to put it into. I love that you validated me one that one :) We had our HELOC's closed overnight in 2008, so it's nice to hear I'm not the only one thinking our equity may not need accessible in a few months. I'll gladly refi into a 30 yr fixed (and pull more if I can) when we complete our kitchen remodel.

    On our investment, I'll try to get a cash out refi if we hold it and pull out 60-70%. That would get my initial investment out, give me a little cushion to hold onto and allow me to pick up another whenever the timing is right. If we sell, I can 1031 into 2 SFR's or a small MF in a cash flow market, but I think better deals are coming further down the road.

    I'm going to give you a call re: 1031 specifics. We have done a few very successfully, but they were over ten yrs ago. 

    Thank you!

    @Mark H. Porter -I love a decisive answer. Sell! While I'll be more inclined to go with less leverage and a nice 30 year fixed, I get your point. OPM is a great way to build wealth, but I also need peace of mind and security to offset some riskier investments we have. :)

    Thanks for the huduser suggestion. I will check it out. 

    @Steve S.. Thank you for sharing the link to your post. You made some good points! 

    Don't you think OZ opportunities are in a similar boat in regards to analysis being extremely difficult right now? I think many OZ deals aren't going to perform well through this (like commercial office and MF's). Of course, it's a longer investment horizon.   Thanks for replying

  • Lender · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 800 posts · 229 votes
    6y

    @Tracey Corea Yes, I agree that many OZF will not be  worthwhile, however, the one I am know of has certain arrangements made with the city and county that will make it extremely profitable and lucrative. Government subsidized monies aren't going anywhere and in some ways you don't really care. You only really want to park your money for a year our two till you can navigate the market on the other side of this pandemic. Once markets stabilize then you will more than likely want to utilize a more evergreen approach, but in the time being you can park your money with a OZF, get a decent return and not worry about making the right play right now in a topsy turvy market. Just sayin... it's something to really consider.
     

  • Real Estate Agent · Henderson, NV · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 550 votes
    6y

    @Tracey Corea For deposit calculations, we typically go with what the market will bear.  It's mostly been something similar to 1 month's rent.  Legally we can charge more, but I don't think the market would support 3x rent unless you were lowering your credit or pet standards.  

    According to MLS rental stats for the past 7 days, 413 new rental listings hit the market and 432 listings were rented. I expect that trend may continue as would-be first-time buyers are having to stay renters or choose to put off their purchase.

  • Realtor · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2015 · 12 posts · 29 votes
    6y

    Update: We decided to keep this one for the long haul. We replaced all carpet with LVP, did all maintenance needed and put a gentleman on section 8 (with his daughter as a live in caregiver) in it. We can sleep knowing the rent will be covered by the government for at least the next year. We increased the rent to $1650 mo. and will put a HELOC on it (through our local credit union) to pick up another property. We will still cashflow $500+ a mo on this one and recover all of our initial investment. Thank you for your responses. They were very helpful. Time to go shopping...

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