Where are the real investors? Any one know?... Bueller... Bueller

[Steve S.]

BiggerPockets for a long time was a great place where investors could meet and exchange information and work together. Over the past year I have noticed a trend of a lot more newbies coming in just looking for information and a lot less real players who truly invest and work together. 

SO... I have two questions....

1) Has anyone else noticed this trend?

2) Where are the real real estate investors conversing if not on this forum?

Trying to figure out where everyone went.

-Steve

[Jay Hinrichs]

@Scott Trench  OH and CONGRATS at being named el Presidente of BP huge move up and very well deserved !!!!

[Steve S.]

@Jessica G. the problem is the good information and real deals that people would be looking for get lost in the mire with millions of questions and regurgitated terrible deals which has turned off many investors from participating. It's not about what you see... it's about filtering so only clean, non abusive, strong deals are presented and cut down the white noise. Streamline the process and make it more enjoyable for deals to get made... that is the key.

[Scott Trench]

@Jay Hinrichs - Thanks! I'm mostly spitballing with that idea for the groups, and I think they could easily be free, and community driven - X amount of posts, Y amount of Votes, Z amount of investments (Dollars + # of deals). Just as a way of identifying those with experience from the new. 

As for @Steve S. 's concern, with size will always come this problem. The key is appropriate site navigation and filters. Right now, he's right, it's a bit tough to navigate the forums and find posts on specific niche topics. By simply knowing your preferences and using our data correctly, we can easily begin pairing you with content and people that are relevant. 

Steve's concern is obvious - he is a lender looking for high-volume, big money clients, likely serial flippers or those doing new construction. He runs a website that is probably trying to do exactly that - collect a bunch of users who have a high demand for loans, like serial flippers. A first-time flipper is probably small business and higher risk for him compared to a "real investor" that fits his underwriting criteria.

And, just because that's his business, doesn't mean that he's not right that this is a concern for non-vendor investors looking to actually connect and learn from one another about projects they are working on that are not accessible for newbies or those with less than six figures in investable liquidity. There is a need for this, and these are the very folks that may be able to provide the best information to newbies. But I think that the solution is the same - personalizing the experience to a greater degree based on your interests and experience level. A long-term project with incremental milestones for sure. 

[Jay Hinrichs]

Originally posted by @Bob Prisco:

@Jay Hinrichs POS is a pain for US  (but we have done 100s and 100s, so ... )  not the clients, we do everything. Start to finish is always about 4- 6  weeks, so not to bad .  Also the POS are going away, three cities now only have exterior, the remaining two will follow soon they will all be gone. Also OOS clients like the fact that there are two non biased inspections ( City and then the state, as we do 80% govt tenants,)  looking over their property and they can see what must be done, so gives them that warm and fuzzy feeling  .

  Wow, 180 to 3 mill, just nuts!! My mom was happy when she paid 45k in 65, and sold 20 years ago for 250k, LOL,,,, since tho it did sell for 750,,,,  Your situation was a game/ life changer. Now you get to play on BP all day LOL,  All the best to you . 

 I wish I sold in 91 for 500k.. but still not bad for that time and It allowed me to live in the Napa valley for the whole of the 90s.. and made another 500k on that house when I sold.. CA has been very very good to me YES> indeed.

[Jay Hinrichs]

Originally posted by @Bob Prisco:

@Jay Hinrichs POS is a pain for US  (but we have done 100s and 100s, so ... )  not the clients, we do everything. Start to finish is always about 4- 6  weeks, so not to bad .  Also the POS are going away, three cities now only have exterior, the remaining two will follow soon they will all be gone. Also OOS clients like the fact that there are two non biased inspections ( City and then the state, as we do 80% govt tenants,)  looking over their property and they can see what must be done, so gives them that warm and fuzzy feeling  .

  Wow, 180 to 3 mill, just nuts!! My mom was happy when she paid 45k in 65, and sold 20 years ago for 250k, LOL,,,, since tho it did sell for 750,,,,  Your situation was a game/ life changer. Now you get to play on BP all day LOL,  All the best to you . 

 POS turn key you handle I get.. but remember people are reading books on remote rehab.. ( which in my mind is about as dangerous an investing strategy out there) and they just don't know what they don't know.. that was my point.. and we handle the POS or my borrowers do .. I don't I just put the money up for it :)  

[Jay Hinrichs]

Originally posted by @Steve S.:

@Jessica G. the problem is the good information and real deals that people would be looking for get lost in the mire with millions of questions and regurgitated terrible deals which has turned off many investors from participating. It's not about what you see... it's about filtering so only clean, non abusive, strong deals are presented and cut down the white noise. Streamline the process and make it more enjoyable for deals to get made... that is the key.

but Steve one man/womens great deal is anothers dud.. we know this being HML with our turn downs.. lots of folks can do simple math.

[Bob Prisco]

@Jay Hinrichs all my clients are from Ca, Israel, NJ, DC, FL, and even had one from  Hong Kong , many have never been to Cleveland let along been in the house .  Its all about the team protecting you and having a " client first " mentality. 70% of my biz comes from referrals, We simply do the right thing, ALWAYS. . 

[Kraig Kujawa]

Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

@Steve S.  I think the PM function works well.. sometimes folks don't respond..

but most do.

Also its a tough gig on this site as you really cant advertise what you do .. so you get all sorts of subliminal messaging going on.. and I understand why the rules are that way.

But maybe a private facebook group put together by some of the folks on this site that want to collaborate off this site.??

although I got on one of those and 90% of what was on there was all these successful guys vacations all over the world  Now I dig that but.. I have been there done that so not really interested in their vacations if they could stick to business maybe.. ???

Part of the issue is the UX of the site. I think they've genuinely struggled with the explosion of growth caused by the economy.  It's just so hard to see friend requests, see the accompanying message that came with the request. It's not an unusual problem. Just one they need to focus on solving. (I don't think VIPing off areas with red rope is have the effect you want.) The Facebook is a pretty good idea with different challenges.

[Scott Trench]

@Jessica G. Great point. Anyone selling a deal would obviously want the deal in front of as many people as possible. Anyone buying a deal would obviously want as few people as possible looking at it. So, there's a need for a group there, but only for the buyers ha! Pretty much any good listing/seller agent will want a deal in front of as many qualified buyers as possible, and will be able to assess the buyer's capacity easily if they are afraid of getting offers from people who can't actually close.

There is, perhaps, a need for a select group to weigh in on certain types of questions. For example, the "Do I need an LLC question" pops up maybe once a month. Wouldn't it be great to have a group of thought leaders in the community answer that question once and for all in an intelligent debate one last time? Without any typos, newbies with no opinion on the subject chiming in, or hot-shot lawyers trying to advertise their secret sauce? Same to a host of commonly asked questions. The posts and replies could be aired publicly, but the responses would be invite only. Again, just spitballing.

Lastly, when it comes to people with truly significant amounts of investable liquidity - let's call it $500,000 on up, there is another risk that comes into play. Having gotten to know some of these people over the past few years, they are incredibly risk-averse. When you have that much cash, you become a target. And asking certain types of questions may attract the interest of people online that you don't want to attract. 

I'm constantly amazed at the number of people who come on here posting to the effect of "I have $100,000 in cash and no plan - please help me!" Luckily it's on BiggerPockets and the crowd typically tells them to go back to the books and read up before making any moves. $500,000 and no plan? $1,000,000 and no plan? More? You may be in for a rough ride and there are, as we pointed out here, fewer (but still some!) people on BiggerPockets with the experience to help you. I don't have advice for the guy with $1,000,000 in liquidity and no plan - I'm the guy who would like to have this problem. 

[Jessica G.]

@Steve Snyder It seems that your post would probably have done more to effect change had it been directed at the mods or the BP powers at be then? In terms of filtering things out, encouraging people to post beginner questions in Starting Out forum, etc. I keep seeing posts that indirectly express annoyance at all of the recent new people joining. It’s somewhat insulting actually, and I’m sorry if that wasn’t the intentIon behind the underlying tone of your post, but yours is the lucky winner that I’ve decided to comment on ;) No biggie, hope you find what you’re looking for! Anyway, I’ll let the real investors get back to it!

[Kraig Kujawa]

Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

Originally posted by @Bob Prisco:

@Steve S. they are here, just need to offer the right product/ service  and they will find you . In my 3 months or so utilizing BP, I have flipped about 1 mill  in properties, ( on top of my other clients not from BP, )  I am finding BP to be the best networking for real " players" .

I have a saying, find/ offer a good deal and the money will find you . 

Most other sites  you can lucky but overall just tire kickers. 

Hats off to the founders / marketers on BP.  
 

 this site is heavy to buy and hold cash flow in king appreciation is gambling so any market that provides a modicum of cash flow with 20% down is a ripe target for the vast majority of the BP audience .   there have not been many lately but some of the most spirited threads are the SF bay area investors who have made a KILLING in appreciation debating with those that think 200 .oo a month and no appreciation to speak of is the way to go.. :)   Obviously there are far more people with 50k in their jeans to buy low end rentals than 250k to buy a rental in the SF peninsula.. but there is no arguing if you bought a rental in SF peninsula 5 years ago you made WAAAAY more money than any cash flow investment.. but now that seems to have peaked.. and I see another huge run to cash flow My only suggestion to those buying in those markets is to get them paid for as soon as possible and if you can pay cash.. that's where you make money in low value assets.. IE any asset under 100k..  is what I consider a low value asset.

and don't listen to Clayton MOrris  I should add... low end D class out of state is a great way to lose all your money 

Anyone find the bunker he's been hiding in lately?

[Jay Hinrichs]

Originally posted by @Kraig Kujawa:

Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

Originally posted by @Bob Prisco:

@Steve S. they are here, just need to offer the right product/ service  and they will find you . In my 3 months or so utilizing BP, I have flipped about 1 mill  in properties, ( on top of my other clients not from BP, )  I am finding BP to be the best networking for real " players" .

I have a saying, find/ offer a good deal and the money will find you . 

Most other sites  you can lucky but overall just tire kickers. 

Hats off to the founders / marketers on BP.  
 

 this site is heavy to buy and hold cash flow in king appreciation is gambling so any market that provides a modicum of cash flow with 20% down is a ripe target for the vast majority of the BP audience .   there have not been many lately but some of the most spirited threads are the SF bay area investors who have made a KILLING in appreciation debating with those that think 200 .oo a month and no appreciation to speak of is the way to go.. :)   Obviously there are far more people with 50k in their jeans to buy low end rentals than 250k to buy a rental in the SF peninsula.. but there is no arguing if you bought a rental in SF peninsula 5 years ago you made WAAAAY more money than any cash flow investment.. but now that seems to have peaked.. and I see another huge run to cash flow My only suggestion to those buying in those markets is to get them paid for as soon as possible and if you can pay cash.. that's where you make money in low value assets.. IE any asset under 100k..  is what I consider a low value asset.

and don't listen to Clayton MOrris  I should add... low end D class out of state is a great way to lose all your money 

Anyone find the bunker he's been hiding in lately?

 from what I heard from one of his vendors is that he does what everyone in his position does takes a fabulous vacation to Europe for the summer  LOL.... and like American greed he probably has a big house drives a benz or two  his wife probably has great cloths some nice jewelery etc etc.. it always cracks me up when they do that on those shows..  HE had this he had that.. the only one's who lay low were mafia Don's to a certain extent everyone else goes out and buys what they want .. 

[Christopher Covell]

I've seen the trend of more newcomers to the site and think it is a reflection of the phenomenal impact BP has been on providing learning resources and bringing new investors up to speed. I have encountered many active investors whose path began here at BP. For the relatively short history of the site I feel the evidence of its impact is amazing.

The experienced folks are still around, but maybe are less noticeable due to the shifting ratio of newcomers:veterans as well as the fact that many of the "real" investors are spending more time on the deals than on the forums.

[Jim G.]

In terms of too many unrelated messages...

I don't know if you all use this called "Key Word Alerts" feature in this site.  I use key word "San Francisco" and "Bay Area" to read the forum message.  Using "key word alerts" will reduce incoming messages quite a bit, although it wouldn't filter out newbie introduction type of messages.  

[Jeremy Roberts]

This is an unfortunate string of posts for new people who listen to the podcast and have hope for exiting the rat race. I consider myself smart enough to sit in a room and be smart enough to shut up. So, what are the low net worth investors supposed to do? Do I just grind it out locally in hopes to post a future success story that'll get me noticed by the folks who were smart enough to build after the RE crash while I spent 10 months in Afghanistan? Mostly, I'm upset it took me so long to get serious. So, I'm going to give you the respect you deserve and hope I'm on the guest list for a mastermind group @Jay Hinrichs chooses to attend. 

I always tell junior Sailors to "Remember where they came from." I feel it is key to future filled with less frustration and hate. I know you all are just frustrated, but don't disappear. Be part of the solution and bring a newbie or two along...just kick the ones who talk too much and don't listen 😁

Any issues this site has will be addressed by the people with the skills to fix it. 

[Steve S.]

@Scott Trench I think starting with a PRO only marketplace would be the easiest start. It would drive more revenue for you and it would limit the amount of white noise that free accounts provide. 

I agree with @Jay Hinrichs and others to make a higher level account level like a "Mastermind" level that is more exclusive and take a review process to be invited or to be a part of. Then, with your new revenue dollars you can go after accredited investors and help bring them in for the people like us who have helped shape and build this community. 

@Jeremy Roberts Lastly my friend this is not an attack on New investors or those who want to learn. No one wants that to go away but as BiggerPockets evolves and has evolved it has created a void for more experienced investors and individuals who are operating at a higher level. BP should cater to us all and in no means will you be left in the dust. It should be a great place for all of us. I am simply addressing something that clearly is striking a chord with many of us out there and is something that has been boiling in the ether for awhile.

[Jeff Sechrest]

Hmmmmm

Wasn't Biggerpockets built for the newbie in the first place? I dont ask that to throw shade, just an observation of sorts. 

" for the investor large and small"

It would seem there's an opportunity here for BP or maybe one of you "big boys".

[Jeremy Roberts]

@Steve Snyder - I understand what you're getting at. I've only been on BP for nine months and have seen many repeat questions. I just think some of the new people lose out if all the heavy hitters are in the back room moving weight. If I wasn't deploying to another sandbox, I'd try getting a deal together worthy enough to try getting into those pockets (literally, bigger pockets). Until then, fly on the wall, my friend!

[Jay Hinrichs]

Originally posted by @Jeff Sechrest:

Hmmmmm

Wasn't Biggerpockets built for the newbie in the first place? I dont ask that to throw shade, just an observation of sorts. 

" for the investor large and small"

It would seem there's an opportunity here for BP or maybe one of you "big boys".

 WE all put our pants on one leg at a time.. and I was not born a successful real estate investor broker.. and I have made millions and got hammered in the down turn like many and lost millions.. we are just all people. so I don't want to get lumped into the High class real estate society.   And I enjoy helping out beginners like I said above sometimes its not what others want to hear but it is a way of giving back.

[Jim K.]

@Jay Hinrichs

Well, I for one am grateful you and others like you do so here, Jay. There's a core group that's taught me things I didn't know and, looking back, most certainly didn't want to hear. I hope I can at least be a class followup as I get closer to my financial goals.

[Jay Hinrichs]

Originally posted by @Jim K.:

@Jay Hinrichs

Well, I for one am grateful you and others like you do so here, Jay. There's a core group that's taught me things I didn't know and, looking back, most certainly didn't want to hear. I hope I can at least be a class followup as I get closer to my financial goals.

 well based on vote to post ratio your in the high society club  !!!!! so there are a lot of people that value your opinion.

[Michaela G.]

It's sort of like playing chess. It's great to be able to teach someone and play with them and watch them get better. But sometimes we need to play with some that are at the same or higher level to feel challenged.

That's not a snub to the newcomer.

[Nicole Heasley Beitenman]

I wish I hadn't read through this thread before creating my next post...now I'm worried about being "that" newbie...

It did provide some great insight, though.

[Steve B.]

@Steve Snyder I think this is what the pro forums are for. You can’t really be a “real playa” and expect to get all you need from the free site which is filled with us filthy casuals.

[Kraig Kujawa]

Originally posted by @Scott Trench:

@Jay Hinrichs - Thanks! I'm mostly spitballing with that idea for the groups, and I think they could easily be free, and community driven - X amount of posts, Y amount of Votes, Z amount of investments (Dollars + # of deals). Just as a way of identifying those with experience from the new. 

As for @Steve S. 's concern, with size will always come this problem. The key is appropriate site navigation and filters. Right now, he's right, it's a bit tough to navigate the forums and find posts on specific niche topics. By simply knowing your preferences and using our data correctly, we can easily begin pairing you with content and people that are relevant. 

Steve's concern is obvious - he is a lender looking for high-volume, big money clients, likely serial flippers or those doing new construction. He runs a website that is probably trying to do exactly that - collect a bunch of users who have a high demand for loans, like serial flippers. A first-time flipper is probably small business and higher risk for him compared to a "real investor" that fits his underwriting criteria.

And, just because that's his business, doesn't mean that he's not right that this is a concern for non-vendor investors looking to actually connect and learn from one another about projects they are working on that are not accessible for newbies or those with less than six figures in investable liquidity. There is a need for this, and these are the very folks that may be able to provide the best information to newbies. But I think that the solution is the same - personalizing the experience to a greater degree based on your interests and experience level. A long-term project with incremental milestones for sure. 

I'm not sure what sort of backend functionality that BP has. I've seen some really clever stuff  leveraged to push content, use smart telemetry to surface what's likely to matter most to individual users. 

Anyway, I feel that the community isn't itself the problem. The platform's limitation and lack of smart tools is. That's very fixable. I know there's tons of UX designers, researchers, engineers on this site. The community could be part of the solution.

Kraig