Discovered neat/easy way to pay off 30 year loans in 20 yrs

Discovered neat/easy way to pay off 30 year loans in 20 yrs

Chris MasonPro Member
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Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes

I ran these numbers using 30 year fixed loans with rates ranging from 3.5% on the low end to 4.75% on the high end. This is for you buy-and-hold types that are now at the stage of looking at your 'permanent' financing; no point in doing this on hard money you're about to refinance out of, or any other 'temporary' financing that's holding you over until you cash out based on ARV. This will also be, I suspect, more powerful the earlier and younger in your REI career you are.

So, the problem: 30 years is a long freaking time! Furthermore, it's a little harder to be cash flow positive with 15 year fixed financing. In addition, anyone can run the numbers to figure out what constant higher payment you need to make to pay a 30 year loan off in X years, but it's tough to swallow that higher payment early on.

The solution: Gradually ramp up your payments in a way that doesn't hurt because your rent is (ideally) increasing at a rate greater than you're increasing your payments. 

It works out that increasing your payment by 3% a year, or 0.25% per month, will pay off 30 year loans with fixed rates ranging from 3.5% to 4.75% in less than 20 years. 

Here is what that looks like at the start of a $375k 30 year fixed at 4.5%. This is for a $500k property putting down 25%.

PaymentDatePayment AmountInterest PaidPrincipal PaidAdditional Principal PaymentPrincipal Balance
16/1/20161,900.071,406.25493.820.00374,506.18
27/1/20161,900.071,404.40495.674.75374,005.76
38/1/20161,900.071,402.52497.559.51373,498.70
49/1/20161,900.071,400.62499.4514.29372,984.96
510/1/20161,900.071,398.69501.3819.07372,464.51
611/1/20161,900.071,396.74503.3323.87371,937.32
712/1/20161,900.071,394.76505.3028.68371,403.33
81/1/20171,900.071,392.76507.3133.50370,862.52

And so on. It pays off in month 228, which is 19 years exactly.

2274/1/20351,900.0716.761,883.311,440.651,145.32
2285/1/20351,149.614.291,145.320.000.00

You're paying $1440.65 extra per month at that point, which at first seems crazy, but do me a favor and project forward 18 years of rent increases for me and you will see that it's not actually you paying for this. 

At the start you are increasing your payment by about $5 per month. Towards the end, you are increasing your payment by about $8 per month. At the end of year one you will be out of pocket $374 additional dollars, so you'd have to plan on increasing rent by some number greater than $31 per month on a $500k property to let the tenant(s) cover the cost of being debt free on this property 10 years sooner. If it's a 3 unit, that means $10 per month per unit, each year (or just go with 3% or greater, per year). I don't think that is crazy at all. 

Sure, you can do that. $500 extra per month starting right now for the next 20 years in this scenario will pay it off in less than 20 years. Be my guest. I suspect REI are likely to find that my proposed method of starting small but gradually increasing each month in a way that rent increases more than cover it will be far more manageable.

If you start this at age 30, that means you will start having rental properties become free and clear, and thus REAL cash cows, while still in your 40s!

Thoughts? 

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Accountant · Hunt Valley, MD · Member since 2016 · 49 posts · 17 votes
10y

Fyi, excel has a loan amortization spreadsheet so you can do in numbers applicable to your own situation. 

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Real Estate Agent · Sisters, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    This is excellent.  Would  you mind posting your spreadsheet.  Especially in the higher priced places for guys and gals that aren't investing for cashflow (at least first).  It would be interesting to play around with and see how fast you can pay it off if you increase by 4%, 5%, etc.  Or even see how how fast you can pay it off if you increase your costs and rent by a certain percent and all of the additional cashflow (rent - costs) go to the mortgage.  If you had rents of 1k a month, expenses of 500, and a 500 mortgage payment by year two you would be able to throw an extra 15 bucks at it per month.  But if your expenses were 200 a month and a 800 mortgage you would have an extra 24 bucks a month to put towards it.  It makes you see some of the advantages of a higher class of properties.  

    Thanks for posting this it makes me think I will look forward to see what others have to say about it.

  • Investor · Rock Hill, SC · Member since 2016 · 40 posts · 20 votes
    10y
    Not saying this won't work, but is there not a big assumption here that it will be ok for rents to increase basically in perpetuity? Markets rebalance. My $100,000 cookie cutter starter home rental will never be worth $500,000. Unless of course we have incredibly horrific inflation and there will be bigger issues at hand at that point.
  • Chris MasonPro Member
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    Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Eric Bilderback:

    This is excellent.  Would  you mind posting your spreadsheet. 

     Glad you found it helpful. 

    My tools aren't compliant as advertising, so I can't post it publicly or share it with folks out of state. If I ever move on from being a lender to other stuff and no longer have compliance handcuffs, I will however do a massive dump of all the tools that I've worked up.

    You should be able to multiply your last P&I+extra payment by 1.0025, each month, to arrive at your next installment in a <20 year payoff plan. Each monthly statement has what you paid last month in P&I+extra on it.

    Bumping your payment by 1.0042 per month, which is a tad over 5% per year, gets us about a 16 year payoff. That's about a 68% increase in payment hikes, but only gets us debt free 3-4 years sooner than 1.0025. 

    I think 1.0025 is the sweet spot. 

  • Chris MasonPro Member
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    Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    Not saying this won't work, but is there not a big assumption here that it will be ok for rents to increase basically in perpetuity?

     That's a fair question. Consider the source: I'm in the Bay Area and without even thinking about it I did indeed implicitly make that assumption because that's basically all we've seen if you take any 10 year average from the last 5 decades. 

    When a little old lady tenant that's been in a rent controlled unit in my area for 30 years dies and the unit goes from 1986-adjusted rent controlled rent to current-market 2016 Bay Area rents, the rent increase from that unit will generally support >3% per year averaged out.

  • Chris MasonPro Member
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    Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    10y

    Another thing to note, now that @Account Closed has me thinking of people outside California. We have Prop 13. You probably don't have anything like Prop 13. So your property taxes may increase approximately proportional to rent increases, meaning this logic and approach may not work for you unless rental increases exceed property tax increases substantively.

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Chris Mason:

    I ran these numbers using 30 year fixed loans with rates ranging from 3.5% on the low end to 4.75% on the high end. This is for you buy-and-hold types that are now at the stage of looking at your 'permanent' financing; no point in doing this on hard money you're about to refinance out of, or any other 'temporary' financing that's holding you over until you cash out based on ARV. This will also be, I suspect, more powerful the earlier and younger in your REI career you are.

    So, the problem: 30 years is a long freaking time! Furthermore, it's a little harder to be cash flow positive with 15 year fixed financing. In addition, anyone can run the numbers to figure out what constant higher payment you need to make to pay a 30 year loan off in X years, but it's tough to swallow that higher payment early on.

    The solution: Gradually ramp up your payments in a way that doesn't hurt because your rent is (ideally) increasing at a rate greater than you're increasing your payments. 

    It works out that increasing your payment by 3% a year, or 0.25% per month, will pay off 30 year loans with fixed rates ranging from 3.5% to 4.75% in less than 20 years. 

    Here is what that looks like at the start of a $375k 30 year fixed at 4.5%. This is for a $500k property putting down 25%.

    PaymentDatePayment AmountInterest PaidPrincipal PaidAdditional Principal PaymentPrincipal Balance
    16/1/20161,900.071,406.25493.820.00374,506.18
    27/1/20161,900.071,404.40495.674.75374,005.76
    38/1/20161,900.071,402.52497.559.51373,498.70
    49/1/20161,900.071,400.62499.4514.29372,984.96
    510/1/20161,900.071,398.69501.3819.07372,464.51
    611/1/20161,900.071,396.74503.3323.87371,937.32
    712/1/20161,900.071,394.76505.3028.68371,403.33
    81/1/20171,900.071,392.76507.3133.50370,862.52

    And so on. It pays off in month 228, which is 19 years exactly.

    2274/1/20351,900.0716.761,883.311,440.651,145.32
    2285/1/20351,149.614.291,145.320.000.00

    You're paying $1440.65 extra per month at that point, which at first seems crazy, but do me a favor and project forward 18 years of rent increases for me and you will see that it's not actually you paying for this. 

    At the start you are increasing your payment by about $5 per month. Towards the end, you are increasing your payment by about $8 per month. At the end of year one you will be out of pocket $374 additional dollars, so you'd have to plan on increasing rent by some number greater than $31 per month on a $500k property to let the tenant(s) cover the cost of being debt free on this property 10 years sooner. If it's a 3 unit, that means $10 per month per unit, each year (or just go with 3% or greater, per year). I don't think that is crazy at all. 

    Sure, you can do that. $500 extra per month starting right now for the next 20 years in this scenario will pay it off in less than 20 years. Be my guest. I suspect REI are likely to find that my proposed method of starting small but gradually increasing each month in a way that rent increases more than cover it will be far more manageable.

    If you start this at age 30, that means you will start having rental properties become free and clear, and thus REAL cash cows, while still in your 40s!

    Thoughts? 

     Love it, Chris! A goldie locks way to accelerate mortgage pay off. Not too hot (aggressive), not too cold (forever), it's just right!

    Thank you for being a lender that cares about wealth building  more than business volume. People may complain about missing the extra $8/mo in cash flow, but most 30 yr mortgage  loans are only about 33% paid down at the 20 yr mark.  Great stuff!

  • Penny ClarkPro Member
    Sacramento, CA · Member since 2014 · 513 posts · 319 votes
    10y

    Thank You Chris for this wonderful tool! I love paying off mortgages early!

  • Investor · New York City, NY · Member since 2013 · 263 posts · 141 votes
    10y

    I agree with you Chris M., but I did it less than 20.  I took half my tax refund check and put it toward the mortgage principle.  When I did not get a refund I would put at least $5000 towards it.  I also paid Januarys payment in Dec. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Austin, TX · Member since 2014 · 636 posts · 486 votes
    10y

    I love the idea, but for me it's a bigger question of whether you SHOULD pay off your mortgages early. Like you said, mortgage rates are between 3.5-4.75% for residential loans on 30 year mortgages, when you then factor in an expected average inflation rate of about 2% and the fact that you can deduct interest that's practically free money. I would say if you have no plans to invest further, paying off mortgages early is a good way to get a guaranteed (albeit small) return, but if you're planning on investing more, be it in notes, real estate, stocks etc., you're likely to get a significantly better return there.

    Additionally, if you're interested in paying your loan off early, why not go for the 15-year mortgage? You'll shave at least a point off your mortgage rate. It might be a little harder on the front end to cover the increased payments, but in the end you'd pay significantly less interest than you would following your method.

    Sorry if I sound like a sour-puss contrarian; I actually really love these kinds of posts that give real actionable advice, but I also like to hear and offer alternate views.

  • Accountant · Hunt Valley, MD · Member since 2016 · 49 posts · 17 votes
    10y

    Fyi, excel has a loan amortization spreadsheet so you can do in numbers applicable to your own situation. 

  • Chris MasonPro Member
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    Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Jacob Pereira:

    I love the idea, but for me it's a bigger question of whether you SHOULD pay off your mortgages early. Like you said, mortgage rates are between 3.5-4.75% for residential loans on 30 year mortgages, when you then factor in an expected average inflation rate of about 2% and the fact that you can deduct interest that's practically free money. I would say if you have no plans to invest further, paying off mortgages early is a good way to get a guaranteed (albeit small) return, but if you're planning on investing more, be it in notes, real estate, stocks etc., you're likely to get a significantly better return there.

    Additionally, if you're interested in paying your loan off early, why not go for the 15-year mortgage? You'll shave at least a point off your mortgage rate. It might be a little harder on the front end to cover the increased payments, but in the end you'd pay significantly less interest than you would following your method.

    Sorry if I sound like a sour-puss contrarian; I actually really love these kinds of posts that give real actionable advice, but I also like to hear and offer alternate views.

     Those are all valid points, and polite disagreement is generally productive disagreement!

    Re: "why not go with 15 year?" and "why pay it down early at all?"

    • All the conventional wisdom on BP says "cash flow is king." This lets you pay it down aggressively, but at no point of your ownership will you be cash flow negative. I do see properties cash flow positive out-the-gate on 15 year fixed financing even here in the Bay Area, but it's fairly rare.
    • Incidentally, if you plan on future acquisitions, anything that threatens your ability to qualify for future mortgages is a threat to your income and success. When we calculate DTI, we look at your minimum required payments and will not ding you for paying extra. If you're just getting started, calculated DTI (even if it's not "real" because you are paying extra) is critical, and 30 year fixed will make for a sexier calculated DTI. For established REI, DTI always takes care of itself and this isn't much of an issue. It's newbies starting out where 15 year fixed can hurt expansion ability.
    • Next, and what I say will always be weighted towards what I know so forgive me if it's another mortgage thing, coming this summer PITI reserve requirements will change for REI. It will be based not on 6 months of PITI, but based on the outstanding mortgage balances and the number of financed properties you own (more properties = higher reserve requirement for all properties). Paying down mortgages early will grant you additional purchasing power even if your minimum required payment is not changing. So for an REI there will be a brand new opportunity cost, coming very soon, of maintaining perpetually high mortgage balances. Do you want to be ahead of guideline changes limiting your acquisition opportunities, or risk getting that "oh sorry Mr Smith it looks like guidelines changed, loan denied" phone call?
    • I agree that some folks have insider knowledge on the stock market or elsewhere, and for them they should just look at mortgage rate v ROI in that other area of investment. No one is going to deny you the ability to buy a stock because of perpetually high mortgage balances. But see above if your goal is to continually expand your RE empire.
    • Incidentally, bullet point #3 above means you should consider not applying OP advice equally to all mortgages across all properties. If you have five financed properties, instead of doing 1.0025 on each, do 1.0125 on one of them. Net effect will be the same,  but you're freeing up a Fannie Mae "number of financed properties" slot every 7-8 years instead of every 20 years. 
    • And, finally,"how many mortgage free properties do you own and how much real estate equity do you have?" is not a crazy way to gauge wealth and proximity to financial freedom. There are certainly more aggressive, and more accurate ways, but this is not a crazy way if we just want to (for mah fellow former Marines out there) "Keep It Simple, Stupid."
  • Real Estate Agent · Austin, TX · Member since 2014 · 636 posts · 486 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Chris Mason:
    Originally posted by @Jacob Pereira:

    I love the idea, but for me it's a bigger question of whether you SHOULD pay off your mortgages early. Like you said, mortgage rates are between 3.5-4.75% for residential loans on 30 year mortgages, when you then factor in an expected average inflation rate of about 2% and the fact that you can deduct interest that's practically free money. I would say if you have no plans to invest further, paying off mortgages early is a good way to get a guaranteed (albeit small) return, but if you're planning on investing more, be it in notes, real estate, stocks etc., you're likely to get a significantly better return there.

    Additionally, if you're interested in paying your loan off early, why not go for the 15-year mortgage? You'll shave at least a point off your mortgage rate. It might be a little harder on the front end to cover the increased payments, but in the end you'd pay significantly less interest than you would following your method.

    Sorry if I sound like a sour-puss contrarian; I actually really love these kinds of posts that give real actionable advice, but I also like to hear and offer alternate views.

     Those are all valid points, and polite disagreement is generally productive disagreement!

    Re: "why not go with 15 year?" and "why pay it down early at all?"

    • All the conventional wisdom on BP says "cash flow is king." This lets you pay it down aggressively, but at no point of your ownership will you be cash flow negative. I do see properties cash flow positive out-the-gate on 15 year fixed financing even here in the Bay Area, but it's fairly rare.
    • Incidentally, if you plan on future acquisitions, anything that threatens your ability to qualify for future mortgages is a threat to your income and success. When we calculate DTI, we look at your minimum required payments and will not ding you for paying extra. If you're just getting started, calculated DTI (even if it's not "real" because you are paying extra) is critical, and 30 year fixed will make for a sexier calculated DTI. For established REI, DTI always takes care of itself and this isn't much of an issue. It's newbies starting out where 15 year fixed can hurt expansion ability.
    • Next, and what I say will always be weighted towards what I know so forgive me if it's another mortgage thing, coming this summer PITI reserve requirements will change for REI. It will be based not on 6 months of PITI, but based on the outstanding mortgage balances and the number of financed properties you own (more properties = higher reserve requirement for all properties). Paying down mortgages early will grant you additional purchasing power even if your minimum required payment is not changing. So for an REI there will be a brand new opportunity cost, coming very soon, of maintaining perpetually high mortgage balances. Do you want to be ahead of guideline changes limiting your acquisition opportunities, or risk getting that "oh sorry Mr Smith it looks like guidelines changed, loan denied" phone call?
    • I agree that some folks have insider knowledge on the stock market or elsewhere, and for them they should just look at mortgage rate v ROI in that other area of investment. No one is going to deny you the ability to buy a stock because of perpetually high mortgage balances. But see above if your goal is to continually expand your RE empire.
    • Incidentally, bullet point #3 above means you should consider not applying OP advice equally to all mortgages across all properties. If you have five financed properties, instead of doing 1.0025 on each, do 1.0125 on one of them. Net effect will be the same,  but you're freeing up a Fannie Mae "number of financed properties" slot every 7-8 years instead of every 20 years. 
    • And, finally,"how many mortgage free properties do you own and how much real estate equity do you have?" is not a crazy way to gauge wealth and proximity to financial freedom. There are certainly more aggressive, and more accurate ways, but this is not a crazy way if we just want to (for mah fellow former Marines out there) "Keep It Simple, Stupid."

     Semper Fi, Devildog. I got out in '08.

    These are excellent points. I forget that a lot of investors can sometimes get hung up on DTI when they're trying to get more loans.

    I actually wasn't aware that financing rules are changing; if what you're saying is accurate (and I assume it is), I may need to rethink some aspects of my strategy. Can you expound on bullet 3? I guess I just always operate on the assumption that having cash on hand is better for obtaining loans than that same amount in the form of equity. 

    I feel like bullet 5 is actually arguing for the 15-year mortgage suggestion I made above. You can still put extra money in to turn it into a 7-8 year loan, but you're paying a lower rate. It might be that that in conjunction with your DTI point makes it that it's still worth paying the extra interest.

    Great conversation, and great contribution to BP. Keep up the good work.

  • Chris MasonPro Member
    Moderator
    OP
    Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Jacob Pereira:
    Originally posted by @Chris Mason:

    I actually wasn't aware that financing rules are changing; if what you're saying is accurate (and I assume it is), I may need to rethink some aspects of my strategy. Can you expound on bullet 3? I guess I just always operate on the assumption that having cash on hand is better for obtaining loans than that same amount in the form of equity. 

    .

    Now: 6 months PITI for each investment property is your reserve requirement.

    This summer: Some % of your total outstanding mortgage balances across all residential properties is your reserve requirement.

    1-4 financed properties: 2%.

    5-6 financed properties: 4%.

    7+ financed properties: 6%.

    Note that retirement accounts, counted at 60% of value, will count. Non-retirement accounts that are investment vehicles (stocks, mutual funds, etc) will count at 70% of face value. 

    If your traditional retirement vehicles amount to about 10% of what you want your total mortgage balances to be, you're fine no matter what. $1,000,000 in mortgage debt * 6% = $60,000 = $100k in 401k/IRA * 60%.

    For everyone else, it matters how many financed properties you have. $400k in debt across five properties will have higher reserve requirements than $700k in debt across four properties. 

  • Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2015 · 345 posts · 138 votes
    10y

    What a great post! Reminds me very quickly of how much more I need to learn lol! Love all the strategies. 

  • Seattle, WA · Member since 2015 · 500 posts · 243 votes
    10y

    "(for mah fellow former Marines out there) "Keep It Simple, Stupid."

    And then the caveat:

    "Keeping it simple is the hardest thing in the world."

  • Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    It really doesn't make any sense to pay off FNMA mortgages early if you're someone on BP with any sense of the time value of money that can reliably make 15% or more on your money.  Why would you take your little green soldiers away from fighting at 15% and have them go fight a battle at 2-3% in real rates?  This doesn't make any sense.  

    If properties appreciate the equity in them is also underutilized if you don't pull it out and deploy it to higher-yielding projects.  There is obviously a risk component here and cash flows need to be managed, but prepaying FNMA mortgages is a terrible use of money.  

  • Chris MasonPro Member
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    Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    10y

    @Bryan Hancock - While there is that school of thought saying exactly what you said - "Rates are low, I can seek greater ROI in XYZ investment vehicle(s)." - There are and will always be some people who favor the peace of mind of knowing they are less in debt, and less in debt sooner. Your "terrible use of money" is someone else sleeping at night, retiring before 50, etc.

  • Dawn AnastasiPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    I saw this on Reddit just this morning!

  • Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    Fair enough @Chris M.....but those people are unlikely to be posting on BiggerPockets.  Know your audience and all....

  • Chris MasonPro Member
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    Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Bryan Hancock:

    Fair enough @Chris M.....but those people are unlikely to be posting on BiggerPockets.  Know your audience and all....

     There are fiscally conservative BPers, believe it or not. The majority here is all about "leverage leverage leverage!" but there is indeed a minority that are all about "net worth, net worth, net worth!" and a "lightweight" version of the Dave Ramsey outlook.

    Two paid off fourplexes and a triplex very well might yield the same net income as 10 fourplexes mortgaged to the hilt, for example, and if you can get those three paid off faster then you can quit the day job sooner. I'm not saying  that is right for everyone, and obviously no one is going to become Trump by doing that, but it's a valid philosophy IMO.

  • Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    Being conservative has nothing to do with math.  Investing in prepaying FNMA mortgages is a horrible use of money no matter how you slice it.  You could take the money you're using to prepay the mortgage and buy other financial instruments with greater liquidity and higher yields.  Thus prepaying the mortgage is suboptimal financially.  Yes, I get that people have different risk tolerances and goals.  Anyone on BP should be able to easily beat an investment with 2-3 percent real yields while also increasing liquidity and thus REDUCING risk. 

  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    10y

    @Chris Mason I love this! Im still at the point where I am trying to accumulate as much debt as I can, but in a few years I believe I will have enough debt and will shift strategy.

  • Real Estate Investor · Tempe, AZ · Member since 2012 · 874 posts · 648 votes
    10y
    Count me with those that appreciate this analysis, Chris M. , whether they post on BP in large numbers or not. I've looked at the 15-year plan a number of times, and the biggest deterrent for me has been the hit on DTI when looking at the next property. This helps achieve the ends while mitigating the initial costs of doing so.
  • Investor · Columbus, MT · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    @Chris Mason

    I appreciate your view on investing! 

    "There will always be some people who favor the peace of mind of knowing they are less in debt, and less in debt sooner." 

    I could not agree with this more. We love our paid for properties because of the epic cash flow and security!  We are all about retiring (financial independence) with as few properties as possible.  We are using debt to acquire those and then flipping, and agressivly paying them off to keep under that 4 loan limit. 

    Our hope is to have about 10 paid for properties when we are done.  (Next 3-4 years) and be managing way less properties than if we leveraged all of it. 

  • Ann Arbor, MI · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 997 votes
    10y

    @Chris Mason Nice to see lenders on here adding value.  Although, I have to say it's quite simple, but yes, it's the simplest things that are often the most difficult.  

    Any reader of the Compound Effect will see the power and value of small increases in rent.  But this goes for a lot of other things.

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