What to do when my agent makes a unforgivable mistake

[Rick Im]

Hello,

You won't believe this happened. Last week, HUS accepted my bid on a really good deal and I gave the earnest money in time. My agent passed the deadline of 2 business days to submit necessary documents online. My agent came up with an unacceptable excuse ("I thought ...) although the HUD initial email clearly delineates the necessary steps. Today HUD notified that our bid was cancelled because they did not receive the requested information and documents, and the property is now back on the market. If I sell this property after making minor cosmetic repairs, the gain would be 50-60K. I am trying to understand what my options are.

Rick

[Russell Brazil]

Why don't you just resubmit the bid? If they took it once, they'll probably take it again.

[Kevin Sobilo]

@Rick Im, talk to their broker and see if they are willing to offer anything. Its hard to guarantee what you would have made. So, if they offer anything of substance I would take the bird in hand and walk away ahead without dealing with any hassles for months.

Real estate licensees and brokerages carry errors & omissions insurance to cover liabilities created against them because of mistakes they make doing their job. So, there is insurance to potentially cover this.

If this is a route you plan to go, I might also get a lawyer on board from the start and allow them to either negotiate with the insurance company or file the lawsuit against the agent and brokerage. Again, I would take any reasonable initial offer since YOU would almost surely be on the hook for paying your own lawyer and no sense in making the same money after paying them a year later as you could make taking a small sum up front. 

[Jay Hinrichs]

Quote from @Russell Brazil:

Why don't you just resubmit the bid? If they took it once, they'll probably take it again.

no kidding instead of whining and making a post just resubmit your bid and if that agent cant get it done get another one or do it yourself.

[Rick Im]

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

@Rick Im, talk to their broker and see if they are willing to offer anything. Its hard to guarantee what you would have made. So, if they offer anything of substance I would take the bird in hand and walk away ahead without dealing with any hassles for months.

Real estate licensees and brokerages carry errors & omissions insurance to cover liabilities created against them because of mistakes they make doing their job. So, there is insurance to potentially cover this.

If this is a route you plan to go, I might also get a lawyer on board from the start and allow them to either negotiate with the insurance company or file the lawsuit against the agent and brokerage. Again, I would take any reasonable initial offer since YOU would almost surely be on the hook for paying your own lawyer and no sense in making the same money after paying them a year later as you could make taking a small sum up front. 

Thank you so much for your reply, Kevin!

[Bill B.]

What are you going to sue for? What’s your “loss”? Is that loss more than the gain from buying the prowprty today? Heck, maybe you know now you can lower your offer and get it accepted. They may have made you money. 

[Rick Im]

When I made this post, I didn't share all the information, which I didn't think was relevant. Since someone clearly sees me as "whining," I'll provide further context.

As I mentioned before, the property was back on the market in the following condition:

"HUD has set the minimum acceptable net to HUD offer amount for this property as 269,300.00. During this period, HUD can and will receive counter offer bids from all unsuccessful bidders, as well as other bids from first-time bidders. HUD will accept any bid that is at least equal to or greater than the minimum acceptable net offer and presents the highest net to HUD."

My original accepted bid was $281K. When my agent tried to submit a bid again, the minimum bid was set at $293K ($269.3K + 6% agent commission + whatever fees/costs HUD has incurred so far). Now, I am in a situation where I would have to pay $12K more for the same property. I hope this gives you a more complete picture.

[Theresa Harris]

Why not ask your agent if he will take a reduced commission?  

[V.G Jason]

You consider this unforgivable?

Submit your bid again, use a diff agent. Unforgivable is irreparable damage. You did not lose anything, you just didn't get what you were expecting to get. The agent is going to learn a hefty cost for this and that's your business. 

Life isn't forgiven, keep it trucking. 

[Alex Olson]

Find a new agent and brokerage. 

[Kevin Sobilo]

Quote from @V.G Jason:

You consider this unforgivable?

Submit your bid again, use a diff agent. Unforgivable is irreparable damage. You did not lose anything, you just didn't get what you were expecting to get. The agent is going to learn a hefty cost for this and that's your business. 

Life isn't forgiven, keep it trucking. 

You are right, the damage isn't irreparable. The question is how much money does the brokerage and agent or their insurance owe them.

They carry insurance for EXACTLY this sort of thing where their mistakes cost their clients.

Also, their bid was accepted, so why don't you think they didn't lose anything? They lost this deal apparently or at least would need to apparently pay significantly more to get it back. 

[Tom Gimer]

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

Quote from @V.G Jason:

You consider this unforgivable?

Submit your bid again, use a diff agent. Unforgivable is irreparable damage. You did not lose anything, you just didn't get what you were expecting to get. The agent is going to learn a hefty cost for this and that's your business. 

Life isn't forgiven, keep it trucking. 

You are right, the damage isn't irreparable. The question is how much money does the brokerage and agent or their insurance owe them.

They carry insurance for EXACTLY this sort of thing where their mistakes cost their clients.

Also, their bid was accepted, so why don't you think they didn't lose anything? They lost this deal apparently or at least would need to apparently pay significantly more to get it back. 

I would not be so certain that the brokerage owes the client anything. Could be expensive to find out. 

For starters, a purchase at the original contract purchase price could have resulted in a big fat loss. More…

Did the agent submit the bid? Or did the client? Was the agent in exclusive control of the information required by HUD? Or just expected by the client to submit it? If so was that expectation reasonable? What are the damages, if any? If there are any provable damages, was the action or inaction of the agent the proximate cause of the client’s damages? Or does the client bear some of the blame? In some jurisdictions if the answer to that last question is in the affirmative, no matter how small of a percentage, the claim is dead.

[Kevin Sobilo]

Quote from @Tom Gimer:

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

Quote from @V.G Jason:

You consider this unforgivable?

Submit your bid again, use a diff agent. Unforgivable is irreparable damage. You did not lose anything, you just didn't get what you were expecting to get. The agent is going to learn a hefty cost for this and that's your business. 

Life isn't forgiven, keep it trucking. 

You are right, the damage isn't irreparable. The question is how much money does the brokerage and agent or their insurance owe them.

They carry insurance for EXACTLY this sort of thing where their mistakes cost their clients.

Also, their bid was accepted, so why don't you think they didn't lose anything? They lost this deal apparently or at least would need to apparently pay significantly more to get it back. 

I would not be so certain that the brokerage owes the client anything. Could be expensive to find out. 

For starters, a purchase at the original contract purchase price could have resulted in a big fat loss. More…

Did the agent submit the bid? Or did the client? Was the agent in exclusive control of the information required by HUD? Or just expected by the client to submit it? If so was that expectation reasonable? What are the damages, if any? If there are any provable damages, was the action or inaction of the agent the proximate cause of the client’s damages? Or does the client bear some of the blame? In some jurisdictions if the answer to that last question is in the affirmative, no matter how small of a percentage, the claim is dead.

Its possible that the amount can be firmly established as from one of the responses it sounds like there is a possibility of getting the deal accepted again for a higher price. So, the difference in price & closing costs would establish firmly the amount.

As for the rest the poster clearly believes the agent had what they needed to take these actions, but did not. Yes, there could be a "gotcha" because of some unknown facts that would be the case in every single situation imaginable!

So, little to lose by threatening a lawsuit as this might get their insurance to make an offer to make it go away. Fighting a lawsuit is EXPENSIVE for the insurance company as well. So, if the facts are what they sound like they might very well prefer to settle but you won't get a settlement without taking an action!

[Joe S.]

Quote from @Theresa Harris:

Why not ask your agent if he will take a reduced commission?  

 What Theresa said… The agent messed up according to you so make them share in the mistake on commission and make another bid. 

[Tom Gimer]

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

Quote from @Tom Gimer:

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

Quote from @V.G Jason:

You consider this unforgivable?

Submit your bid again, use a diff agent. Unforgivable is irreparable damage. You did not lose anything, you just didn't get what you were expecting to get. The agent is going to learn a hefty cost for this and that's your business. 

Life isn't forgiven, keep it trucking. 

You are right, the damage isn't irreparable. The question is how much money does the brokerage and agent or their insurance owe them.

They carry insurance for EXACTLY this sort of thing where their mistakes cost their clients.

Also, their bid was accepted, so why don't you think they didn't lose anything? They lost this deal apparently or at least would need to apparently pay significantly more to get it back. 

I would not be so certain that the brokerage owes the client anything. Could be expensive to find out. 

For starters, a purchase at the original contract purchase price could have resulted in a big fat loss. More…

Did the agent submit the bid? Or did the client? Was the agent in exclusive control of the information required by HUD? Or just expected by the client to submit it? If so was that expectation reasonable? What are the damages, if any? If there are any provable damages, was the action or inaction of the agent the proximate cause of the client’s damages? Or does the client bear some of the blame? In some jurisdictions if the answer to that last question is in the affirmative, no matter how small of a percentage, the claim is dead.

Its possible that the amount can be firmly established as from one of the responses it sounds like there is a possibility of getting the deal accepted again for a higher price. So, the difference in price & closing costs would establish firmly the amount.

As for the rest the poster clearly believes the agent had what they needed to take these actions, but did not. Yes, there could be a "gotcha" because of some unknown facts that would be the case in every single situation imaginable!

So, little to lose by threatening a lawsuit as this might get their insurance to make an offer to make it go away. Fighting a lawsuit is EXPENSIVE for the insurance company as well. So, if the facts are what they sound like they might very well prefer to settle but you won't get a settlement without taking an action!

The purchase would likely need to be consummated at the higher price in order to establish the "damages" to which you are referring... and then I would refer you back to the other potential issues I raised with respect to a negligence claim.

Responding to a demand letter with "go pound sand" is not the same thing as defending a lawsuit.

I just don't see any attorney taking this $12K case to trial and that is what you are suggesting as the end game.

[Ryan Cleary]

Try and separate emotion as best as you can from the situation. Start a level-headed conversation with the agent and have all the facts prepped beforehand. Come to the conversation more as a brainstorming session rather than an accusation. 

"Let's work together to figure this out"

If they get defensive or don't own up to their mistake... Move on to a different agent.

Good luck!

[Kevin Sobilo]

Quote from @Tom Gimer:

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

Quote from @Tom Gimer:

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

Quote from @V.G Jason:

You consider this unforgivable?

Submit your bid again, use a diff agent. Unforgivable is irreparable damage. You did not lose anything, you just didn't get what you were expecting to get. The agent is going to learn a hefty cost for this and that's your business. 

Life isn't forgiven, keep it trucking. 

You are right, the damage isn't irreparable. The question is how much money does the brokerage and agent or their insurance owe them.

They carry insurance for EXACTLY this sort of thing where their mistakes cost their clients.

Also, their bid was accepted, so why don't you think they didn't lose anything? They lost this deal apparently or at least would need to apparently pay significantly more to get it back. 

I would not be so certain that the brokerage owes the client anything. Could be expensive to find out. 

For starters, a purchase at the original contract purchase price could have resulted in a big fat loss. More…

Did the agent submit the bid? Or did the client? Was the agent in exclusive control of the information required by HUD? Or just expected by the client to submit it? If so was that expectation reasonable? What are the damages, if any? If there are any provable damages, was the action or inaction of the agent the proximate cause of the client’s damages? Or does the client bear some of the blame? In some jurisdictions if the answer to that last question is in the affirmative, no matter how small of a percentage, the claim is dead.

Its possible that the amount can be firmly established as from one of the responses it sounds like there is a possibility of getting the deal accepted again for a higher price. So, the difference in price & closing costs would establish firmly the amount.

As for the rest the poster clearly believes the agent had what they needed to take these actions, but did not. Yes, there could be a "gotcha" because of some unknown facts that would be the case in every single situation imaginable!

So, little to lose by threatening a lawsuit as this might get their insurance to make an offer to make it go away. Fighting a lawsuit is EXPENSIVE for the insurance company as well. So, if the facts are what they sound like they might very well prefer to settle but you won't get a settlement without taking an action!

The purchase would likely need to be consummated at the higher price in order to establish the "damages" to which you are referring... and then I would refer you back to the other potential issues I raised with respect to a negligence claim.

Responding to a demand letter with "go pound sand" is not the same thing as defending a lawsuit.

I just don't see any attorney taking this $12K case to trial and that is what you are suggesting as the end game.

Who says its $12k? Nobody said that! They said the new MINIMUM bid is $12k higher, that doesn't mean that will be the WINNING BID. The new winning bid might be $50k higher!

And no, you would not need to actually buy the property again. The new winning bid establishes the loss because that is the price it would have cost to replace that exact deal! They already caused the harm by losing the 1st deal. So, even if it wasn't this simple to establish the amount there would be an amount owed. In many cases estimating damages is difficult, here luckily it looks to be really straight forward BETTER than most cases.

Also, a small claim might be possible to file in small claims court without a lawyer depending on how small claims work in that state.

Also, why would a lawyer care about the amount of damages? They are getting paid out of your pocket not from the winnings. 

[Verna Littleton]

I have a ton of experience working with HUD foreclosures. Get the bid back in asap. HUD will accept it again! Have the agent call HUD if necessary and let them know it was their fault.

[Jay Hinrichs]

Quote from @Verna Littleton:

I have a ton of experience working with HUD foreclosures. Get the bid back in asap. HUD will accept it again! Have the agent call HUD if necessary and let them know it was their fault.

finally the voice of reason !!!!!

[Tom Gimer]

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

Quote from @Tom Gimer:

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

Quote from @Tom Gimer:

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

Quote from @V.G Jason:

You consider this unforgivable?

Submit your bid again, use a diff agent. Unforgivable is irreparable damage. You did not lose anything, you just didn't get what you were expecting to get. The agent is going to learn a hefty cost for this and that's your business. 

Life isn't forgiven, keep it trucking. 

You are right, the damage isn't irreparable. The question is how much money does the brokerage and agent or their insurance owe them.

They carry insurance for EXACTLY this sort of thing where their mistakes cost their clients.

Also, their bid was accepted, so why don't you think they didn't lose anything? They lost this deal apparently or at least would need to apparently pay significantly more to get it back. 

I would not be so certain that the brokerage owes the client anything. Could be expensive to find out. 

For starters, a purchase at the original contract purchase price could have resulted in a big fat loss. More…

Did the agent submit the bid? Or did the client? Was the agent in exclusive control of the information required by HUD? Or just expected by the client to submit it? If so was that expectation reasonable? What are the damages, if any? If there are any provable damages, was the action or inaction of the agent the proximate cause of the client’s damages? Or does the client bear some of the blame? In some jurisdictions if the answer to that last question is in the affirmative, no matter how small of a percentage, the claim is dead.

Its possible that the amount can be firmly established as from one of the responses it sounds like there is a possibility of getting the deal accepted again for a higher price. So, the difference in price & closing costs would establish firmly the amount.

As for the rest the poster clearly believes the agent had what they needed to take these actions, but did not. Yes, there could be a "gotcha" because of some unknown facts that would be the case in every single situation imaginable!

So, little to lose by threatening a lawsuit as this might get their insurance to make an offer to make it go away. Fighting a lawsuit is EXPENSIVE for the insurance company as well. So, if the facts are what they sound like they might very well prefer to settle but you won't get a settlement without taking an action!

The purchase would likely need to be consummated at the higher price in order to establish the "damages" to which you are referring... and then I would refer you back to the other potential issues I raised with respect to a negligence claim.

Responding to a demand letter with "go pound sand" is not the same thing as defending a lawsuit.

I just don't see any attorney taking this $12K case to trial and that is what you are suggesting as the end game.

Who says its $12k? Nobody said that! They said the new MINIMUM bid is $12k higher, that doesn't mean that will be the WINNING BID. The new winning bid might be $50k higher!

And no, you would not need to actually buy the property again. The new winning bid establishes the loss because that is the price it would have cost to replace that exact deal! They already caused the harm by losing the 1st deal. So, even if it wasn't this simple to establish the amount there would be an amount owed. In many cases estimating damages is difficult, here luckily it looks to be really straight forward BETTER than most cases.

Also, a small claim might be possible to file in small claims court without a lawyer depending on how small claims work in that state.

Also, why would a lawyer care about the amount of damages? They are getting paid out of your pocket not from the winnings. 

The fact pattern suggests $12k. You're adding facts not in evidence.

Small claims court is limited to small claims. Which is it, Kevin? Is the claim small or no? 

And no... attorneys can bill hourly (out of your pocket) or agree to take a case on contingency (from the winnings) or work out a combination of those. My point is nobody is taking a $12k case to trial on a contingency basis and nobody is going to take a $12k case hourly unless they are not busy. That's a few days work before the client says OK enough billing.

I had an attorney I was considering hiring to defend a lawsuit in a state I don't practice. Unique fact pattern with an unreleased deed of trust. He was like "is this a $40k case or a $500k case? If it's $40k I can't help you." Reality.

[Kevin Sobilo]

Quote from @Tom Gimer:

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

Quote from @Tom Gimer:

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

Quote from @Tom Gimer:

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

Quote from @V.G Jason:

You consider this unforgivable?

Submit your bid again, use a diff agent. Unforgivable is irreparable damage. You did not lose anything, you just didn't get what you were expecting to get. The agent is going to learn a hefty cost for this and that's your business. 

Life isn't forgiven, keep it trucking. 

You are right, the damage isn't irreparable. The question is how much money does the brokerage and agent or their insurance owe them.

They carry insurance for EXACTLY this sort of thing where their mistakes cost their clients.

Also, their bid was accepted, so why don't you think they didn't lose anything? They lost this deal apparently or at least would need to apparently pay significantly more to get it back. 

I would not be so certain that the brokerage owes the client anything. Could be expensive to find out. 

For starters, a purchase at the original contract purchase price could have resulted in a big fat loss. More…

Did the agent submit the bid? Or did the client? Was the agent in exclusive control of the information required by HUD? Or just expected by the client to submit it? If so was that expectation reasonable? What are the damages, if any? If there are any provable damages, was the action or inaction of the agent the proximate cause of the client’s damages? Or does the client bear some of the blame? In some jurisdictions if the answer to that last question is in the affirmative, no matter how small of a percentage, the claim is dead.

Its possible that the amount can be firmly established as from one of the responses it sounds like there is a possibility of getting the deal accepted again for a higher price. So, the difference in price & closing costs would establish firmly the amount.

As for the rest the poster clearly believes the agent had what they needed to take these actions, but did not. Yes, there could be a "gotcha" because of some unknown facts that would be the case in every single situation imaginable!

So, little to lose by threatening a lawsuit as this might get their insurance to make an offer to make it go away. Fighting a lawsuit is EXPENSIVE for the insurance company as well. So, if the facts are what they sound like they might very well prefer to settle but you won't get a settlement without taking an action!

The purchase would likely need to be consummated at the higher price in order to establish the "damages" to which you are referring... and then I would refer you back to the other potential issues I raised with respect to a negligence claim.

Responding to a demand letter with "go pound sand" is not the same thing as defending a lawsuit.

I just don't see any attorney taking this $12K case to trial and that is what you are suggesting as the end game.

Who says its $12k? Nobody said that! They said the new MINIMUM bid is $12k higher, that doesn't mean that will be the WINNING BID. The new winning bid might be $50k higher!

And no, you would not need to actually buy the property again. The new winning bid establishes the loss because that is the price it would have cost to replace that exact deal! They already caused the harm by losing the 1st deal. So, even if it wasn't this simple to establish the amount there would be an amount owed. In many cases estimating damages is difficult, here luckily it looks to be really straight forward BETTER than most cases.

Also, a small claim might be possible to file in small claims court without a lawyer depending on how small claims work in that state.

Also, why would a lawyer care about the amount of damages? They are getting paid out of your pocket not from the winnings. 

The fact pattern suggests $12k. You're adding facts not in evidence.

Small claims court is limited to small claims. Which is it, Kevin? Is the claim small or no? 

And no... attorneys can bill hourly (out of your pocket) or agree to take a case on contingency (from the winnings) or work out a combination of those. My point is nobody is taking a $12k case to trial on a contingency basis and nobody is going to take a $12k case hourly unless they are not busy. That's a few days work before the client says OK enough billing.

I had an attorney I was considering hiring to defend a lawsuit in a state I don't practice. Unique fact pattern with an unreleased deed of trust. He was like "is this a $40k case or a $500k case? If it's $40k I can't help you." Reality.

It's sad that you need this explained to you. Perhaps read slower.

There are no facts yet as apparently no subsequent sale has happened. So, you're $12k "suggestion" is no fact either.

The fact pattern SUGGESTS the MINIMUM amount is $12k which COULD BE a small claim handled without a lawyer. So, that is one possible avenue.

The amount could end up being substantially MORE. If so, a lawyer being paid by the hour could be hired.

Very little money need be spent to file a lawsuit and try to at least get a settlement offer. Doesn't mean you even need to go through with it. Just filing may well be enough to get an offer and with very little cost or effort. That is the point.

This isn't the type of lawsuit I would expect any lawyer to take on contingency. I'm glad I was able to enlighten you about lawyers charging by the hour since that was something you apparently had not considered.

Please do try to read and understand better this time.

I think a settlement offer is very possible in either situation. If they want to take it to court it could be possible as a small claim if the amount is something small like $12k and they want to handle it without a lawyer or if the amount is large enough it might make sense to pay the lawyer by the hour. Yes, lawyers do work by the hour ALL THE TIME. There are certain categories of lawsuits where contingency is more common but that is probably more the exception than the rule.

[Tom Gimer]

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

Quote from @Tom Gimer:

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

Quote from @Tom Gimer:

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

Quote from @Tom Gimer:

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

Quote from @V.G Jason:

You consider this unforgivable?

Submit your bid again, use a diff agent. Unforgivable is irreparable damage. You did not lose anything, you just didn't get what you were expecting to get. The agent is going to learn a hefty cost for this and that's your business. 

Life isn't forgiven, keep it trucking. 

You are right, the damage isn't irreparable. The question is how much money does the brokerage and agent or their insurance owe them.

They carry insurance for EXACTLY this sort of thing where their mistakes cost their clients.

Also, their bid was accepted, so why don't you think they didn't lose anything? They lost this deal apparently or at least would need to apparently pay significantly more to get it back. 

I would not be so certain that the brokerage owes the client anything. Could be expensive to find out. 

For starters, a purchase at the original contract purchase price could have resulted in a big fat loss. More…

Did the agent submit the bid? Or did the client? Was the agent in exclusive control of the information required by HUD? Or just expected by the client to submit it? If so was that expectation reasonable? What are the damages, if any? If there are any provable damages, was the action or inaction of the agent the proximate cause of the client’s damages? Or does the client bear some of the blame? In some jurisdictions if the answer to that last question is in the affirmative, no matter how small of a percentage, the claim is dead.

Its possible that the amount can be firmly established as from one of the responses it sounds like there is a possibility of getting the deal accepted again for a higher price. So, the difference in price & closing costs would establish firmly the amount.

As for the rest the poster clearly believes the agent had what they needed to take these actions, but did not. Yes, there could be a "gotcha" because of some unknown facts that would be the case in every single situation imaginable!

So, little to lose by threatening a lawsuit as this might get their insurance to make an offer to make it go away. Fighting a lawsuit is EXPENSIVE for the insurance company as well. So, if the facts are what they sound like they might very well prefer to settle but you won't get a settlement without taking an action!

The purchase would likely need to be consummated at the higher price in order to establish the "damages" to which you are referring... and then I would refer you back to the other potential issues I raised with respect to a negligence claim.

Responding to a demand letter with "go pound sand" is not the same thing as defending a lawsuit.

I just don't see any attorney taking this $12K case to trial and that is what you are suggesting as the end game.

Who says its $12k? Nobody said that! They said the new MINIMUM bid is $12k higher, that doesn't mean that will be the WINNING BID. The new winning bid might be $50k higher!

And no, you would not need to actually buy the property again. The new winning bid establishes the loss because that is the price it would have cost to replace that exact deal! They already caused the harm by losing the 1st deal. So, even if it wasn't this simple to establish the amount there would be an amount owed. In many cases estimating damages is difficult, here luckily it looks to be really straight forward BETTER than most cases.

Also, a small claim might be possible to file in small claims court without a lawyer depending on how small claims work in that state.

Also, why would a lawyer care about the amount of damages? They are getting paid out of your pocket not from the winnings. 

The fact pattern suggests $12k. You're adding facts not in evidence.

Small claims court is limited to small claims. Which is it, Kevin? Is the claim small or no? 

And no... attorneys can bill hourly (out of your pocket) or agree to take a case on contingency (from the winnings) or work out a combination of those. My point is nobody is taking a $12k case to trial on a contingency basis and nobody is going to take a $12k case hourly unless they are not busy. That's a few days work before the client says OK enough billing.

I had an attorney I was considering hiring to defend a lawsuit in a state I don't practice. Unique fact pattern with an unreleased deed of trust. He was like "is this a $40k case or a $500k case? If it's $40k I can't help you." Reality.

It's sad that you need this explained to you. Perhaps read slower.

There are no facts yet as apparently no subsequent sale has happened. So, you're $12k "suggestion" is no fact either.

The fact pattern SUGGESTS the MINIMUM amount is $12k which COULD BE a small claim handled without a lawyer. So, that is one possible avenue.

The amount could end up being substantially MORE. If so, a lawyer being paid by the hour could be hired.

Very little money need be spent to file a lawsuit and try to at least get a settlement offer. Doesn't mean you even need to go through with it. Just filing may well be enough to get an offer and with very little cost or effort. That is the point.

This isn't the type of lawsuit I would expect any lawyer to take on contingency. I'm glad I was able to enlighten you about lawyers charging by the hour since that was something you apparently had not considered.

Please do try to read and understand better this time.

I think a settlement offer is very possible in either situation. If they want to take it to court it could be possible as a small claim if the amount is something small like $12k and they want to handle it without a lawyer or if the amount is large enough it might make sense to pay the lawyer by the hour. Yes, lawyers do work by the hour ALL THE TIME. There are certain categories of lawsuits where contingency is more common but that is probably more the exception than the rule.

"It's sad that you need this explained to you. Perhaps read slower."

"Please do try to read and understand better this time."

Condescending a**hole comments. Heaven forbid somebody disagrees with your analysis.

[Russell Brazil]

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

Quote from @Tom Gimer:

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

Quote from @Tom Gimer:

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

Quote from @Tom Gimer:

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

Quote from @V.G Jason:

You consider this unforgivable?

Submit your bid again, use a diff agent. Unforgivable is irreparable damage. You did not lose anything, you just didn't get what you were expecting to get. The agent is going to learn a hefty cost for this and that's your business. 

Life isn't forgiven, keep it trucking. 

You are right, the damage isn't irreparable. The question is how much money does the brokerage and agent or their insurance owe them.

They carry insurance for EXACTLY this sort of thing where their mistakes cost their clients.

Also, their bid was accepted, so why don't you think they didn't lose anything? They lost this deal apparently or at least would need to apparently pay significantly more to get it back. 

I would not be so certain that the brokerage owes the client anything. Could be expensive to find out. 

For starters, a purchase at the original contract purchase price could have resulted in a big fat loss. More…

Did the agent submit the bid? Or did the client? Was the agent in exclusive control of the information required by HUD? Or just expected by the client to submit it? If so was that expectation reasonable? What are the damages, if any? If there are any provable damages, was the action or inaction of the agent the proximate cause of the client’s damages? Or does the client bear some of the blame? In some jurisdictions if the answer to that last question is in the affirmative, no matter how small of a percentage, the claim is dead.

Its possible that the amount can be firmly established as from one of the responses it sounds like there is a possibility of getting the deal accepted again for a higher price. So, the difference in price & closing costs would establish firmly the amount.

As for the rest the poster clearly believes the agent had what they needed to take these actions, but did not. Yes, there could be a "gotcha" because of some unknown facts that would be the case in every single situation imaginable!

So, little to lose by threatening a lawsuit as this might get their insurance to make an offer to make it go away. Fighting a lawsuit is EXPENSIVE for the insurance company as well. So, if the facts are what they sound like they might very well prefer to settle but you won't get a settlement without taking an action!

The purchase would likely need to be consummated at the higher price in order to establish the "damages" to which you are referring... and then I would refer you back to the other potential issues I raised with respect to a negligence claim.

Responding to a demand letter with "go pound sand" is not the same thing as defending a lawsuit.

I just don't see any attorney taking this $12K case to trial and that is what you are suggesting as the end game.

Who says its $12k? Nobody said that! They said the new MINIMUM bid is $12k higher, that doesn't mean that will be the WINNING BID. The new winning bid might be $50k higher!

And no, you would not need to actually buy the property again. The new winning bid establishes the loss because that is the price it would have cost to replace that exact deal! They already caused the harm by losing the 1st deal. So, even if it wasn't this simple to establish the amount there would be an amount owed. In many cases estimating damages is difficult, here luckily it looks to be really straight forward BETTER than most cases.

Also, a small claim might be possible to file in small claims court without a lawyer depending on how small claims work in that state.

Also, why would a lawyer care about the amount of damages? They are getting paid out of your pocket not from the winnings. 

The fact pattern suggests $12k. You're adding facts not in evidence.

Small claims court is limited to small claims. Which is it, Kevin? Is the claim small or no? 

And no... attorneys can bill hourly (out of your pocket) or agree to take a case on contingency (from the winnings) or work out a combination of those. My point is nobody is taking a $12k case to trial on a contingency basis and nobody is going to take a $12k case hourly unless they are not busy. That's a few days work before the client says OK enough billing.

I had an attorney I was considering hiring to defend a lawsuit in a state I don't practice. Unique fact pattern with an unreleased deed of trust. He was like "is this a $40k case or a $500k case? If it's $40k I can't help you." Reality.

It's sad that you need this explained to you. Perhaps read slower.

There are no facts yet as apparently no subsequent sale has happened. So, you're $12k "suggestion" is no fact either.

The fact pattern SUGGESTS the MINIMUM amount is $12k which COULD BE a small claim handled without a lawyer. So, that is one possible avenue.

The amount could end up being substantially MORE. If so, a lawyer being paid by the hour could be hired.

Very little money need be spent to file a lawsuit and try to at least get a settlement offer. Doesn't mean you even need to go through with it. Just filing may well be enough to get an offer and with very little cost or effort. That is the point.

This isn't the type of lawsuit I would expect any lawyer to take on contingency. I'm glad I was able to enlighten you about lawyers charging by the hour since that was something you apparently had not considered.

Please do try to read and understand better this time.

I think a settlement offer is very possible in either situation. If they want to take it to court it could be possible as a small claim if the amount is something small like $12k and they want to handle it without a lawyer or if the amount is large enough it might make sense to pay the lawyer by the hour. Yes, lawyers do work by the hour ALL THE TIME. There are certain categories of lawsuits where contingency is more common but that is probably more the exception than the rule.

You do realize the person you're being condescending to about lawyers, is a real estate lawyer.  So when he stated no lawyer is going to take this case, he's not just making **** up. He's stating his professional opinion being one of the people who does this for a living at a high level.

You've also mentioned E&O insurance earlier.  The consumer doesn't have the ability to file an E&O claim against the agent, only the person who ha the policy can make a claim. And that person's not filing a claim.

[Jay Hinrichs]

Quote from @Russell Brazil:

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

Quote from @Tom Gimer:

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

Quote from @Tom Gimer:

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

Quote from @Tom Gimer:

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

Quote from @V.G Jason:

You consider this unforgivable?

Submit your bid again, use a diff agent. Unforgivable is irreparable damage. You did not lose anything, you just didn't get what you were expecting to get. The agent is going to learn a hefty cost for this and that's your business. 

Life isn't forgiven, keep it trucking. 

You are right, the damage isn't irreparable. The question is how much money does the brokerage and agent or their insurance owe them.

They carry insurance for EXACTLY this sort of thing where their mistakes cost their clients.

Also, their bid was accepted, so why don't you think they didn't lose anything? They lost this deal apparently or at least would need to apparently pay significantly more to get it back. 

I would not be so certain that the brokerage owes the client anything. Could be expensive to find out. 

For starters, a purchase at the original contract purchase price could have resulted in a big fat loss. More…

Did the agent submit the bid? Or did the client? Was the agent in exclusive control of the information required by HUD? Or just expected by the client to submit it? If so was that expectation reasonable? What are the damages, if any? If there are any provable damages, was the action or inaction of the agent the proximate cause of the client’s damages? Or does the client bear some of the blame? In some jurisdictions if the answer to that last question is in the affirmative, no matter how small of a percentage, the claim is dead.

Its possible that the amount can be firmly established as from one of the responses it sounds like there is a possibility of getting the deal accepted again for a higher price. So, the difference in price & closing costs would establish firmly the amount.

As for the rest the poster clearly believes the agent had what they needed to take these actions, but did not. Yes, there could be a "gotcha" because of some unknown facts that would be the case in every single situation imaginable!

So, little to lose by threatening a lawsuit as this might get their insurance to make an offer to make it go away. Fighting a lawsuit is EXPENSIVE for the insurance company as well. So, if the facts are what they sound like they might very well prefer to settle but you won't get a settlement without taking an action!

The purchase would likely need to be consummated at the higher price in order to establish the "damages" to which you are referring... and then I would refer you back to the other potential issues I raised with respect to a negligence claim.

Responding to a demand letter with "go pound sand" is not the same thing as defending a lawsuit.

I just don't see any attorney taking this $12K case to trial and that is what you are suggesting as the end game.

Who says its $12k? Nobody said that! They said the new MINIMUM bid is $12k higher, that doesn't mean that will be the WINNING BID. The new winning bid might be $50k higher!

And no, you would not need to actually buy the property again. The new winning bid establishes the loss because that is the price it would have cost to replace that exact deal! They already caused the harm by losing the 1st deal. So, even if it wasn't this simple to establish the amount there would be an amount owed. In many cases estimating damages is difficult, here luckily it looks to be really straight forward BETTER than most cases.

Also, a small claim might be possible to file in small claims court without a lawyer depending on how small claims work in that state.

Also, why would a lawyer care about the amount of damages? They are getting paid out of your pocket not from the winnings. 

The fact pattern suggests $12k. You're adding facts not in evidence.

Small claims court is limited to small claims. Which is it, Kevin? Is the claim small or no? 

And no... attorneys can bill hourly (out of your pocket) or agree to take a case on contingency (from the winnings) or work out a combination of those. My point is nobody is taking a $12k case to trial on a contingency basis and nobody is going to take a $12k case hourly unless they are not busy. That's a few days work before the client says OK enough billing.

I had an attorney I was considering hiring to defend a lawsuit in a state I don't practice. Unique fact pattern with an unreleased deed of trust. He was like "is this a $40k case or a $500k case? If it's $40k I can't help you." Reality.

It's sad that you need this explained to you. Perhaps read slower.

There are no facts yet as apparently no subsequent sale has happened. So, you're $12k "suggestion" is no fact either.

The fact pattern SUGGESTS the MINIMUM amount is $12k which COULD BE a small claim handled without a lawyer. So, that is one possible avenue.

The amount could end up being substantially MORE. If so, a lawyer being paid by the hour could be hired.

Very little money need be spent to file a lawsuit and try to at least get a settlement offer. Doesn't mean you even need to go through with it. Just filing may well be enough to get an offer and with very little cost or effort. That is the point.

This isn't the type of lawsuit I would expect any lawyer to take on contingency. I'm glad I was able to enlighten you about lawyers charging by the hour since that was something you apparently had not considered.

Please do try to read and understand better this time.

I think a settlement offer is very possible in either situation. If they want to take it to court it could be possible as a small claim if the amount is something small like $12k and they want to handle it without a lawyer or if the amount is large enough it might make sense to pay the lawyer by the hour. Yes, lawyers do work by the hour ALL THE TIME. There are certain categories of lawsuits where contingency is more common but that is probably more the exception than the rule.

You do realize the person you're being condescending to about lawyers, is a real estate lawyer.  So when he stated no lawyer is going to take this case, he's not just making **** up. He's stating his professional opinion being one of the people who does this for a living at a high level.

You've also mentioned E&O insurance earlier.  The consumer doesn't have the ability to file an E&O claim against the agent, only the person who ha the policy can make a claim. And that person's not filing a claim.

the amount of Naive people that jump right to Sue the Bastard is really something. 

[Kevin Sobilo]

Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:

Quote from @Russell Brazil:

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

Quote from @Tom Gimer:

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

Quote from @Tom Gimer:

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

Quote from @Tom Gimer:

Quote from @Kevin Sobilo:

Quote from @V.G Jason:

You consider this unforgivable?

Submit your bid again, use a diff agent. Unforgivable is irreparable damage. You did not lose anything, you just didn't get what you were expecting to get. The agent is going to learn a hefty cost for this and that's your business. 

Life isn't forgiven, keep it trucking. 

You are right, the damage isn't irreparable. The question is how much money does the brokerage and agent or their insurance owe them.

They carry insurance for EXACTLY this sort of thing where their mistakes cost their clients.

Also, their bid was accepted, so why don't you think they didn't lose anything? They lost this deal apparently or at least would need to apparently pay significantly more to get it back. 

I would not be so certain that the brokerage owes the client anything. Could be expensive to find out. 

For starters, a purchase at the original contract purchase price could have resulted in a big fat loss. More…

Did the agent submit the bid? Or did the client? Was the agent in exclusive control of the information required by HUD? Or just expected by the client to submit it? If so was that expectation reasonable? What are the damages, if any? If there are any provable damages, was the action or inaction of the agent the proximate cause of the client’s damages? Or does the client bear some of the blame? In some jurisdictions if the answer to that last question is in the affirmative, no matter how small of a percentage, the claim is dead.

Its possible that the amount can be firmly established as from one of the responses it sounds like there is a possibility of getting the deal accepted again for a higher price. So, the difference in price & closing costs would establish firmly the amount.

As for the rest the poster clearly believes the agent had what they needed to take these actions, but did not. Yes, there could be a "gotcha" because of some unknown facts that would be the case in every single situation imaginable!

So, little to lose by threatening a lawsuit as this might get their insurance to make an offer to make it go away. Fighting a lawsuit is EXPENSIVE for the insurance company as well. So, if the facts are what they sound like they might very well prefer to settle but you won't get a settlement without taking an action!

The purchase would likely need to be consummated at the higher price in order to establish the "damages" to which you are referring... and then I would refer you back to the other potential issues I raised with respect to a negligence claim.

Responding to a demand letter with "go pound sand" is not the same thing as defending a lawsuit.

I just don't see any attorney taking this $12K case to trial and that is what you are suggesting as the end game.

Who says its $12k? Nobody said that! They said the new MINIMUM bid is $12k higher, that doesn't mean that will be the WINNING BID. The new winning bid might be $50k higher!

And no, you would not need to actually buy the property again. The new winning bid establishes the loss because that is the price it would have cost to replace that exact deal! They already caused the harm by losing the 1st deal. So, even if it wasn't this simple to establish the amount there would be an amount owed. In many cases estimating damages is difficult, here luckily it looks to be really straight forward BETTER than most cases.

Also, a small claim might be possible to file in small claims court without a lawyer depending on how small claims work in that state.

Also, why would a lawyer care about the amount of damages? They are getting paid out of your pocket not from the winnings. 

The fact pattern suggests $12k. You're adding facts not in evidence.

Small claims court is limited to small claims. Which is it, Kevin? Is the claim small or no? 

And no... attorneys can bill hourly (out of your pocket) or agree to take a case on contingency (from the winnings) or work out a combination of those. My point is nobody is taking a $12k case to trial on a contingency basis and nobody is going to take a $12k case hourly unless they are not busy. That's a few days work before the client says OK enough billing.

I had an attorney I was considering hiring to defend a lawsuit in a state I don't practice. Unique fact pattern with an unreleased deed of trust. He was like "is this a $40k case or a $500k case? If it's $40k I can't help you." Reality.

It's sad that you need this explained to you. Perhaps read slower.

There are no facts yet as apparently no subsequent sale has happened. So, you're $12k "suggestion" is no fact either.

The fact pattern SUGGESTS the MINIMUM amount is $12k which COULD BE a small claim handled without a lawyer. So, that is one possible avenue.

The amount could end up being substantially MORE. If so, a lawyer being paid by the hour could be hired.

Very little money need be spent to file a lawsuit and try to at least get a settlement offer. Doesn't mean you even need to go through with it. Just filing may well be enough to get an offer and with very little cost or effort. That is the point.

This isn't the type of lawsuit I would expect any lawyer to take on contingency. I'm glad I was able to enlighten you about lawyers charging by the hour since that was something you apparently had not considered.

Please do try to read and understand better this time.

I think a settlement offer is very possible in either situation. If they want to take it to court it could be possible as a small claim if the amount is something small like $12k and they want to handle it without a lawyer or if the amount is large enough it might make sense to pay the lawyer by the hour. Yes, lawyers do work by the hour ALL THE TIME. There are certain categories of lawsuits where contingency is more common but that is probably more the exception than the rule.

You do realize the person you're being condescending to about lawyers, is a real estate lawyer.  So when he stated no lawyer is going to take this case, he's not just making **** up. He's stating his professional opinion being one of the people who does this for a living at a high level.

You've also mentioned E&O insurance earlier.  The consumer doesn't have the ability to file an E&O claim against the agent, only the person who ha the policy can make a claim. And that person's not filing a claim.

the amount of Naive people that jump right to Sue the Bastard is really something.

I know, right! Who said that?!? Not actually what I was suggesting.

What is amazing is the number of naive people who comment without trying to read and understand!