Seriously, we are talking about adults purchasing a book, training or system to accomplish a desired objective. Regardless of the road and methodology by which they attempt to get there, the ONLY purpose people are seeking with such products is an education by which to make money.
Obviously, adults know that there is no magic bullet for making money and most certainly, anyone on Bigger Pockets who makes their living from whatever variant of real estate investing they do certainly knows that.
Frank Lloyd Wright said it best when he said, "I know the price of success: dedication, hard work , and an unremitting devotion to the things you want to see happen."
At the end of the day, irrespective of any training, the only person responsible for your success or failure is you.
To say that gurus deliver the nightmare that people using their systems must actually work them to make money is like that scene in, "The Matrix". Was Morpheus delivering a nightmare with the blue pill or exposing Neo to the sometimes harsh realities of the world that existed whether he wanted to believe them or not?
It is a vicious cycle. In this world, people don't respect you or want to hear what you have to say unless you are making money.
So, understanding this, you develop an ability to get what you have to offer to the largest possible base of people. This costs money. In order to pay for it and grow it, you monetize it. This is entrepreneurialism and capitalism 101. Then, because you monetized it and make money at it, you get the label of guru, snake oil salesman, etc.
Yes, it is true and well documented that Carleton Sheets makes more than $60 million dollars per year from his No Money Down courses. And yes, it is true and well documented that he does not make that much from his active real estate deals annually. In what way does that make him a fraud or lessen the value of the material contained in his course? It is the definition of stigma.
The sad reality is that 97% of the population does not want to work. They want a handout. Untrue? It is a documented fact that 97% of the earth's wealth is held by 3% of the earth's population.
Take a look at the current elected administration and their platform of taking from the evil rich (who work, have liability and inherent risk) and giving to the deserving poor (who complain about that their 40 hour work week is too long because it interferes with their TV watching time).
So, the gurus do not deliver the nightmare, they merely reveal the inner man or woman's work ethic unto themselves. The naked truth can be a harsh reality to swallow. It is easier to point fingers at the evil guru who made money and say that he is a fraud than look in the mirror and admit one's lack of desire to do what it takes to be successful. Much easier to watch another episode of CSI and crack a beer.
I buy books and systems from "gurus" all the time. In fact, this week alone we have purchased training or systems from CopyBlogger (copywriting and SEO) and Russell Brunson (Micro-Continuity so we can deliver and monetize our methodology of making money). Brian Clark (CopyBlogger) reportedly makes $100k per month from his website which is ranked in the top 100 by Technorati and Russell Brunson reportedly makes $800k per month from his Internet marketing machine.
Have we gotten any value from their systems? You better believe it.
Did money magically appear?
Of course, not.
As with any course from any guru, we have to put in the blood, sweat and tears to reap the rewards.
One of my Investor mentors told me about 15 years ago, "Everything worthwhile in life is hard. If it was easy, everybody would be doing it."
Now having said that, I applaud you for developing a system and you absolutely should monetize it to the nth degree. Your time and experience have value and presented in the proper medium deserve financial success.
On the journey to success, there will be many naysayers and detractors who attempt to dissuade you from your chosen path.
The sad reality is that most people do not want to see other people succeed.
These same people become your devoted fans once you have battled the demons and won and are a huge monetary success.
Go Man Go!
It is a forced savings plan, not a self imposed savings plan.
Or maybe people finally got their bailout check, perhaps that was it.
And, touche regarding our URL. One thing to note regarding our program is that it is a program that facilitates home ownership through owner financing (sellers who cannot sell because most buyers cannot qualify for conventional mortgage financing any longer) and is yet another example of the capital markets correcting themselves without governmental intervention.
How?
Through market stabilization that negates the necessity for price deflation due to short sales and foreclosures in the current restricted lending environment.
Unlike a mortgage that the banks have restricted to purposely disable your ability to pre-pay monthly installments, we actually advise clients to pay their owner finance contracts ahead to develop a financial buffer. The greatest fear a homeowner has is losing their home. We are not in the eviction or foreclosure business and don't want to be. The problem is, most Americans have never received any type of professional financial guidance and the current credit system is rigged against them in a moronic attempt to protect the lender. In reality, it has the opposite effect of not protecting the lender. When lenders wake up to the fact that by instituting programs to protect the borrower it has the added benefit of protecting the lender. Case in point, which is better for lender? Massive down payments to create the perception of an artificial equity position or the "down payment" going into a reserve account held by the lender backed by an insurance policy that would facilitate X number of payments on the buyer's behalf in the event of job loss, disability, etc.?
With that type of program, foreclosures in a non-ARM upward adjusting environment would be all but non-existent.
In any event, the Wall Street Journal may be right presently, but loosen up credit again and watch what happens.
The lemmings who just got whacked over the head with a frying pan will go running right back over the credit and debt cliff.
Now, please stop making me sound like someone's old man. I don't turn 40 until next Monday!!!
While certainly I am not sitting in judgment or pointing fingers because I have been guilty of many financial, investment and spending mistakes in the past, it never ceases to amaze me that the largest majority of the population never pays anything ahead to ensure financial peace.
It is reminiscent of Parkinson's Second Law, "Expenses always rise to meet income".
I think it was his third law that stated, "With credit, Expenses always exceed income".
America is going through a painful Financial Renaissance. The sad part is that it would seem that everyone is clamoring for the way things were and the understanding of the mistakes that led to the current situation have not yet been mentally absorbed.
The addicts are going through withdrawals and pleading for more access to debt and don't yet realize that it is the debt drug that caused the withdrawals, not the absence of debt.
Those who don't learn from their mistakes are destined to repeat them.
Man, I hate sounding like someone's father.
Richard, Ryan and Will are 100% right.
What you have here is the definition of a paradox.
Until the advent of the Internet, the only place investors had to turn for real world information was "the gurus". There was no medium to train investors on real world deals. So, yesterday's experts became today's "gurus" through the proliferation of books and the seminar circuit.
God Bless'em.
I have personally learned countless strategies that I implement in one way or another every day from Robert Allen, Donald Trump, Robert Kyosaki, Carleton Sheets, Dolf de Roos, etc. Without them and so many more, I wouldn’t even be in real estate or believe that someone with my background could succeed in real estate investment.
Saying that there is something dishonest or ethically wrong with a "guru" monetizing and marketing their expertise to the largest base possible is akin to saying that investors are morally and ethically wrong for taking advantage of the ignorance of others and making money on real estate deals. This is hypocrisy at its finest.
Shame on you!
Monetizing your talent and presenting it to the largest base possible is the epitome of enlightened entrepreneurship.
At the end of the day, isn't this the purpose of the Bigger Pockets web presence, to reach the largest possible base and monetize it?
Otherwise, let’s be honest, it would be a non-read newsletter at best.
If you want to define us as today's "experts", you must realize that we have all gained our expert status through tons of education (books, course work, gurus and real world), tons of money (spent, invested and lost) and countless hours of work and persistence.
Unfortunately, due to the myriad of nuances involved in every real estate transaction, you learn by putting your hand on the stove only to realize that it is hot and you just got burned. These experiences cost time, money and deals but lay the educational foundation so you are better prepared for the next deal.
I have often said that getting a real estate deal to closing can be like fighting a seven headed dragon and the closing table is where the dragon lives. You have to keep swinging your sword each time the next head comes by to take a bite out of your hide. Title issues, appraisal issues, underwriting issues, mortgage issues, ego issues, funding issues, etc., etc.
So, if you are fortunate enough to persevere and have monetary success, you get deemed as the authority or expert by your colleagues, friends, the general public and so on. And they start to lean on you and take up your time, often times to never actually take your “expert†advice they appear to so desperately seek.
For those with a soul, with the “authority†or “expert†moniker comes a responsibility to help others attain financial independence and avoid unnecessary pitfalls. Giving back and paying it forward.
I have felt this and spent tens of thousands of dollars and thousands of hours of time investing in the success of others, all at no cost to them.
Here's the rub, unfortunately, no amount of internal desire to help and want to give back can overcome human nature.
As is well known, as a general rule, people do not appreciate anything that is given away for free.
Case in point, as is covered in the national media headlines daily; many people involved in the real estate industry have hit on very hard times. It's no secret that many investors, Realtors, builders, appraisers and attorneys have had to seek alternative methods of generating income.
What has happened to them was clearly defined in the book, "Who Moved My Cheese?â€. If you have never read it, buy it and read it because it will permanently ensure your flexibility and ability to see new opportunities and avoid disaster.
One would think that people forced out of their profession would clamor and kill for an opportunity to make significant income in their industry rather than go wait tables or work as a receptionist to make ends meet.
Though never intended to be what it turned into, one of our investment programs gained tremendous popularity with buyers, sellers, investors and new construction builders and the evolution of the market and unsolicited demand forced us to create a retail platform to support them.
This retail platform generates 1000s of buyers with cash and 1000s of sellers with property they want to sell via our program every month. It also generates daily unsolicited requests from other investors, Realtors, builders, property managers and clients who see what we are doing and want to work with us.
In an effort to give back and help my friends and colleagues who were struggling, as well as the inordinate amount of other investors contacting me, we created a program with which they could work with us in our system as Independent Investor Partners (this was done to allow them to remain independent, maintain their egos, desired schedules and hours). This program was designed to take entrepreneurs who didn't want to be employees and provide them a JV partner who handled everything so they didn't have to, so they could retain pride, ego, etc., and work independently and NOT as an employee (and just do deals).
We have multiple websites and an army of IT and support staff setup. I setup a Virtual PBX and Automated Call Distribution System (ACD) that they could log in to from anywhere and take live HOT inbound phone calls who had cash (that I paid for), setup email systems, auto responders, provided access to personal assistants, full IT support and plugged them into a system where they could work from anywhere at whatever time they wanted. We provided all of the leads, paid for every expense, support staff, overhead, etc.
I provided personal daily training where they got to listen to me do deals live on the phone, provided scripts, training, WebExs, you name it. Expenses to the tune of thousands of dollars per month. In short, I could not have provided more for free to a base of people struggling who understood the business.
The cost to the Independent Investor Partners was absolutely NOTHING.
Our average revenue per deal on these transactions is more than $8,000 with many deals being closed in less than 24 hours start to finish.
The end result was what Richard speaks of which is the 99/1 rule.
Though I am not a negative person and have no desire for this to be a "negative" post, the truth remains that 99% of the people will take up your time, suck the life out of you and never do anything with the wealth of knowledge that you freely give away, or, in his case, nominally give away. When it is free or cheap, they will allow you to incur ridiculous time and expense on their part and never produce anything.This results in personal time with family, professional time doing deals and inordinate amounts of money, totally wasted.
Due to the expense and time drain training and supporting others who had no intention of success, I made more money by myself than with more than 2 dozen dedicated “sales†people working with me as Independent Investor Partners who got the same exact leads that I got and had access to my personal support and IT staff. Several of these people had previously been millionaires.
It is important to understand that my objective with the program was to truly help other people who were struggling by providing them with the over abundance that I have been given and have no means to take advantage of. (I am one person with two young sons with only so many hours per day to work deals and thousands upon thousands of leads monthly that I cannot personally talk to or take advantage of…………these were given away for free and were the same leads I support my family and lifestyle on).
So, if you decide to criticize someone making money by monetizing their efforts and making people ante up (skin in the game), who also doesn't want or need to babysit other people, ask yourself this question (which we ask anyone now before we waste our time), "If we show you how to make money, will you do it and be accountable for your promise every week?".
When faced with that sort of commitment, 99% of people will confess the truth and never do it.
Only through this process can you find the 1% who are the diamonds in the rough and the next generation who actually deserve your time and effort.
So, be cautious to criticize a “guru†until you have walked in their shoes as an enlightened “expert†and understand why they have chosen to monetize their efforts. It isn’t always lust for the almighty dollar.
In many cases, it is disillusionment and the true understanding of of the outcome of entrepreneurial philanthropy.
Eddie:
So, apparently we need to talk to an investor in their 60s or 70s who was investing during the double digit interest rate 1970s and find out if they had due on sale clauses then and if they were enforced when rates rose.
Richard, you are correct that every note I have ever read used the term "may" in reference to calling the note. This clause is, I believe, one of those phantom clauses utilized to strike fear in the hearts of investors and buyers but has no real teeth. With all of the subject to investors on Bigger Pockets, if this clause were to have any merit, surely an army of subject to investors would come forth and cite instances. From decades of experience, like many of you, I have watched the mortgage closing packages go from fewer than 20 pages many years ago to the size of the Atlanta phone book presently. I used to have to explain to colleagues, friends and clients that after we finished signing the HUD 1, the deeds, the TIL, the note and any riders, that every other document was there because some bank somewhere either got sued or lost a lawsuit about whatever the topic of the document was. For example, the no hazardous chemicals document, SERIOUSLY???!!! What is the first thing every investor or homeowner does after they buy a home? Load it up with every conceivable cleaning supply imaginable, paint, turpentine, bleach, gas for the lawnmower, etc., most of which individually violate the clause and in the proper combinations could bring the entire house down.
I have never heard of any bank or lender paying money to re-examine the title after closing to uncover all of us evil investors who learned proper asset protection or how to structure a subject to deal. Likewise, I never had a knock on the door from a lender asking if they could inspect the property to ensure that I didn't have any hazardous chemicals in the home. (Good Thing, too or I would have been sunk).
So, it will be interesting to see if anyone has ever had a note called on a performing loan due to a title transfer.
I just created a new post to see if anyone has ever experienced an accelerated note because they transferred title and the bank enforced the due in sale clause.
You can view it here:
http://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/49-private-conventional-lending-discussion/topics/34988-has-anyone-ever-been-forced-to-pay-an-accelerated-note-because-they-transferred-title-and-the-bank-enforced-the-due-on-sale-clause-
The "Due On Sale Clause" in every lender's note is a common investor fear due to the myriad of ways investors transfer title on deals.
In 30 years, I have NEVER heard of a bank accelerating a note that was paid timely because title transferred and they enforced the due on sale clause.
Has anyone ever personally had this happen and if so, could you educate the other Bigger Pockets members as to your experience and what to look out for?
Scott:
as I indicated, in more than 30 years, I have NEVER known anyone to be forced to pay the note because a bank enforced the "due on sale" clause. I have personally executed multiple quit-claim/warranty deeds without incident (as have many of the other Bigger Pockets members).
My point regarding precedence was nothing other than that, from personal real world experience, I have NEVER seen a judge enforce any detainer law where the tenant/buyer/borrower was paying on time.
In this market, a judge would laugh at any bank trying to foreclose on a property where the note was being paid timely, as well they should.
Eddie:
Thank you for the kind words. What Eddie is referring to is the common law argument known as "precedence". In English, this means that if you transfer title to your LLC and the bank accepts nine payments (or any number other than 1) from your LLC before attempting to enforce the due on sale clause, you can argue to the judge under the rule of precedence, that the bank had full knowledge of the transfer AND accepted payments with such knowledge and therefore their motions to enforce the due on sale clause should be dismissed. Keep in mind, I am not an attorney and I am not rendering legal advice, just real world experience.
A judge, seeing X number of payments made by the new LLC that the bank accepted will question the bank's motives after accepting X number of payments.