Skip to content
×
Pro Members Get
Full Access!
Get off the sidelines and take action in real estate investing with BiggerPockets Pro. Our comprehensive suite of tools and resources minimize mistakes, support informed decisions, and propel you to success.
Advanced networking features
Market and Deal Finder tools
Property analysis calculators
Landlord Command Center
ANNUAL Save 54%
$32.50 /mo
$390 billed annualy
MONTHLY
$69 /mo
billed monthly
7 day free trial. Cancel anytime
Pick markets, find deals, analyze and manage properties. Try BiggerPockets PRO.
x
All Forum Categories
All Forum Categories
Followed Discussions
Followed Categories
Followed People
Followed Locations
Market News & Data
General Info
Real Estate Strategies
Landlording & Rental Properties
Real Estate Professionals
Financial, Tax, & Legal
Real Estate Classifieds
Reviews & Feedback

All Forum Posts by: Tobias Joneses

Tobias Joneses has started 9 posts and replied 33 times.

Quote from @Myrtle Mike Thompson:

@Tobias Joneses The answer to your question about making money on STR in Long Beach very well be "NO". Have you explored any other markets? Here in the Myrtle Beach area there are plenty of deals that will cash flow with a 25% down payment.

Yeah I'm guessing this might be the answer at least in general here.  I'm surprised anyone is making money in California from str based on prices, supply, interest rates. My friend in Big Bear says it's basically vacant unless it's winter. Which makes sense
Quote from @Jesse Rivera:

I'm no expert in STRs, but I do know that getting registered for a STR in Long Beach is difficult. They only allow a certain number of non owner occupied STRs, and the there is a waiting list.

My neighbor did STR on 2 properties in Long Beach, but only allowed 30+ day rentals so that he did not have to register with the city.

Don't know who your friend is but there is literally no wait for str license. Source: i emailed them today .

Currently, the city does not have a waitlist for STR registrations. 

Please let me know if you have any questions.  
Victoria Bueno Assistant Administrative Analyst
 
Quote from @Robert Ellis:
Quote from @Tobias Joneses:

I'm looking at the numbers and with interest rates seeking 6.5. Housing prices the way they are and cleaning fees can anyone make money on str in long beach if they get in the game now?


Yes. build to rent in urban core adjacent neighborhoods. traditionally in our market in Columbus Ohio existing inventory was good 2014-2020. as prices rose, the cost to build started to match existing inventory prices because of supply shortage, especially for 2-4 multiunit dwellings. around that time we started to look at new construction and land. we found that land is a 12 month or more supply in our market which makes it a buyers market and you can design any structure you want in new construction. if you like a layout or floorplan all you have to do is design it. after that we looked at the right unit mix and Floorplans and layouts. we started looking at high rent per square foot layouts that were better than single family. Single family home rentals average $1.61 lease price per square foot nationally if you look at the conglomerates that own thousands of houses. apartments average more than that. I live in Miami Florida and I pay over $3 per square foot in rent with some going as high as $5. I live in the city / brickell in a high rise where it's close to transportation. I could never buy land in brickell it's more than 300 million per acre. but in columbus I can buy an infill lot for 40-60k within 1mile of Downtown Columbus. we looked at hundreds of Floorplans and found that 2 bedrooms seemed to be better than 1 and we wanted a tight compact floorplan that could get high rents. rents are higher Downtown Columbus and property values are higher Downtown Columbus by more than 40%. after that we wanted 4 units but it was commercial so we stuck to 3 units because it's residential. in February of 2024 we submitted our first design of a stacked triplex that is 2 beds 1 bath. after design changes, we now have about 7 approved in our market. all of the underwriting of banks is based on long term rentals. These are 668 square feet and will rent $1600-$1800 depending on the urban adjacent neighborhood. that's rental prices of $2.39 to $2.69 per square foot. that's on a long term rental. on a short term rental the prices would be higher but we haven't had any clients do that yet. The average new build in columbus is $220 a square foot but the average downtown is greater than $275 per square foot. That means we can build, rent, refinance, repeat. I think the right investor would do 2 units long term one unit short term. this strategy allows you the greatest flexibility. we are also developing an extended stay hotel that's 58 rooms. the size of the average room in that is 216 square feet and rents for a target $80 per night. our development cost per room is 100k per room with hard construction. the smaller you go the more money you make. if I was to suggest anything it would be to focus on the smaller part of the market and on multiple unit dwellings and finding and identifying markets that meet similar numbers. that will probably be midwest markets. I hope this hleps! keep going after it. run lots of numbers and do a lot of underwriting. feel free to reach out at any time if you need help in your market. these properties that are 3 units are rented and then a cash out refinance that not only makes money but returns full capital to the investor on DSCR loans similar to the interest rate you mentioned above.

Thanks but you won't be making any money on a new build because in so cal there is no land to build
Quote from @James Carlson:

@Tobias Joneses

Yeah, I don't know California, so talk to a local STR-friendly agent. But to your question ...

Yes, my examples are with 20-25% down as an investment loan. A real rough back-of-the-napkin metric I use is if a Colorado property's gross annual STR revenues can equal 10% of the purchase price. That's close to break even for a short-term rental.

To me, the worst thing you can be in Colorado is a middle-ground vacation rental. Either be super budget, or be something unique or high-end. 

Unfortunately, if you're buying with today's rates, the Airbnb world -- like the rest of the world right now -- is bifurcated into a small percentage of high-performing properties and the rest that are middling about. 

Thanks for the insight into Colorado.  I've spoken to 7 agents here in California and none are really knowledgeable about str friendly hoas, they ask send me the canned responses at this point I've accumulated 100 percent legal strs in different counties in California. I also realize there isn't a big market here in the current economic environment. I'm planning on doing a str loophole so low priced str won't work well for me
Quote from @James Carlson:

@Tobias Joneses

I don't know the Long Beach market, but here in Colorado, another high-priced area, you can still do well with short-term rentals, but ... it's harder than it used to be.

My STR investor clients that succeed are doing a few things. They're all obvious and simple, but do require work. And they all fall under the category of "bring your A game."

Buy unique. If possible, buy something different. An A-frame, a treehouse, a home with views, etc. ... they all kill on Airbnb. Or create something unique ... a game room, a killer outdoor space, a wall-papered wall, etc. 

Great amenities. Install a sauna or a game room. Hot tubs are great. A hot tub is shown to increase STR revenues by 30% or so. Go above and beyond. I had a client in the mountains outside of Colorado Springs buy a star-gazing dome for his vacation rental. 

Hire a designer. You can't thrift-store-buy your way to profitability. You've got to stand out and a professionally designed space is an easy way to do it. Clients who bought just outside of Denver hired a designer, and their ADR is outperforming their competition by around 20%.

Don't skimp on photos. If you pay half a million to $1M for a home, another $30k for furnishings and then shoot photos on your iPhone, you should be banned from investing ever again. Hire. A. Professional. And maybe do multiple sets of photos? Full sun and sunset, for example?

Not saying it's a sure bet if you do the above. But it definitely puts you ahead of the game. Good luck!


 Thanks for the reply, and this is with 25 percent down? I can make the numbers work is i put down 85 percent but was wondering if anyone doing 25 percent is still making a lot.. California is another world 

Quote from @Lisa Marie:

@Eric Coats, to answer your specific questions, estimating expenses are pretty simple. You should have a good idea of every expense you have in your primary home, then add the STR specific: (These are rough estimate numbers, depending on various factors)

STR insurance - a special insurance that covers both the property and your liability, could be $2~4k in areas without natural disasters, could be more than $10k in some other areas.

cleaning fee - approx. $50 per bedroom, so a 4-bedroom house will cost you about $150~200

consumables - bathroom supplies, kitchen supplies, beverage supplies: $20~30 per week, depending on how much you provide

wear and tear - towels, linen, kitchen utensils, some furniture: $1000~2000 per year

Repairs/replacement for things that guests break or steal:  $1000~2000 per year

Also, if your personal use is less than 14 days a year, the entire property's expense is deductible against STR income, but if you use more than 14 days, then you will have to calculate the proportion of how many days it's rented out vs how many days you or your family uses. Don't quote me on that, but it's easy to look up the IRS regulations.

I recently had a conversation with somebody else who is planning to start an STR business. Below is what I told her. I think the main points would apply to you as well.

STR is great, as long as you go into it with eyes wide open and reasonable expectations. The first thing I want to point out is that it may be wise, in your thinking, to separate the property itself from the STR business that's being run from the property.

In the old days (as recent as 10 years ago), people buy a vacation home to enjoy, and they leave it empty when not in use. You only do that if you are rich enough to afford it. Thanks to technology and Airbnb, we can now rent it out when the property is not being used. Thanks to COVID, for a couple of years, you can actually make enough money to be cash flow positive even if you hire a property manager AND have mortgage payments. Alas, this scenario didn't last very long, as you would expect in a free market capitalist society -- new money flood in, more STRs in supply, property prices increase, STR incomes decrease, until a new equilibrium is achieved.

Nowadays, the word STR is being used to describe both the property and the business. I think that could be dangerous if people are not careful in their evaluation. I would recommend that you analyze the operating side of the business and the capital side of the business separately.

On the operating side, you can use AirDNA to predict the potential income which is gross revenue. If you hire a PM, they typically charge 15~25% of the gross. If you self manage, you save that money, but you are basically taking on a side hustle. Then you subtract your expenses: (1) Fixed cost: property tax, STR insurance, utilities, landscaping, etc. (2) Variable cost: platform fees from Airbnb and VRBO, lodging/hotel/transit or whatever pass-through tax your local AHJ requires, cleaning fee, cost of replacement for consumables, repair and maintenance, etc. What's left after subtracting the expenses is your Net Income. In a very loose rule-of-thumb estimate, your Net Income (revenue minus expense) may be about 50~60% of the gross revenue. If you lose 20% to the PM, then you still have 30~40% profit.

Now let's look at how you acquire the property, which is a question of capital. You can get a mortgage, or you can pay cash. If you have a mortgage, you will have a monthly payment.  If you pay cash, you don't have a payment, but effectively you are giving up an income stream if the cash had been in a bond or ETF and earning you either interest or appreciation. A lot of people tend to mingle these things when they talk about "break even" or "cap rate", but that leads to a lot of confusion.

Let's use some real numbers which may be easier to understand. Typically, the STR property tends to be priced at 10x of the annual gross revenue, so let's assume you buy a house for $500k and you can get $50k a year in gross revenue. (Some people buy a run-down place and renovate it before starting the STR. In that case, your $500k house may get you $75k or even $100k revenue, because you actually turned it into a $750k house. You are basically doing a flip first, which requires a whole different set of skills.)

So, with $50k revenue, if you hire a PM, they charge 20%, so you give up $10k right away. Your fixed costs could be something like the following: $5k property tax, $2k insurance, $3k utility (including internet and TV), $2k landscaping (mowing, weeding), $2k or $3k maintenance (if you have a pool or hot tub). That's $15k you have to pay even if nobody stays at your place. Variable costs depend on how many guests you have and a lot of other things, but it could cost another $10~15k. So now you are down to about $10~15k net income from the STR business. (Your income will be $10k higher if you self manage, but as I mentioned before, you earn that $10k by acting as your own PM. Some people think it's easy and claim it only takes them a couple of hours a week, some people wouldn't touch it with a 6-ft pole.)

Now let's look at the acquisition cost or capital cost: if you buy the $500k house with a mortgage with a 20% down payment, your monthly payment will be about $2700. Annually, it's $32k. You make $10k from STR, you have to come up with $22k out of your pocket, not to mention the upfront $100k down payment and possibly another $20k to furnish the house unless you bought it as an existing STR.

So in summary, in today's market, it's impossible to buy a STR and be a passive owner and still make enough profit to cover your mortgage payment. You either have to earn extra money via sweat equity (working as your own PM or do the renovation work), or you have to be ok with a negative cash flow. Any profit you can make from STR will help with the mortgage, but it's a bad idea to count on the STR to make a certain amount of money if that's the only way you can afford the house.

Bottom line, you have to decide how badly you want to own the place, and how much financial cushion you have, and how much risk you are willing to take. 

I don't mean to scare you away from STR. For the right people with the right perspective, it could be a great way to diversify your investment and enhance your quality of life. I wish you best of luck.

This was a very very good post and honest.. not one of those, well if you look hard enough you'll find a great deal.. no not in today's market. 

 if you manage it yourself and clean it yourself you and have it rented 80 percent of the time you might make 2k a year. But I've yet to see anyone do that in today's market especially in California.

Can anyone find one in Long Beach now that makes sense? If and this is a big if you find one for a very low price sure it makes sense but i haven't seen any on the market and the numbers don't name sense. Current market in long beach i think you can't right now. Also the biggest pain is finding an hoa that allows it. 

don't even suggest a sfh . Those are for sure 100000% not profitable in the current market. 

change my mind.

I'm looking at the numbers and with interest rates seeking 6.5. Housing prices the way they are and cleaning fees can anyone make money on str in long beach if they get in the game now?

Quote from @Michael Plaks:

@Tobias Joneses

You're missing the fundamental concept and overthinking it.

You have $20,000 losses across all properties. If Form 8582 shows that $5,000 was allowed and $15,000 disallowed, it means that $5,000 has been applied to the current year and already reduced your current taxes. It is spent. Gone. No longer available. Not wasted, used up for current tax savings.

The $15,000 unallowed loss is what is transferred to the next year. 

Both $5,000 and $15,000 are be distributed between your properties based on a complicated formula - leave that to your software.

Thanks again for your response. Is it possible to have more allowed losses than your gain? Ie: you made 5k on rent, allowed loss is 10k(depreciation, repairs, interest etc) and disallowed loss 20k? This means 5k was applied(allowed loss) but the other 5k carries over with the 20k disallowed? I'm not using any software right now just trying to understand the rules. 

is this making any sense? 

i do see the ratio of how to calculate it but the one part that doesn't make sense is that allowed losses seem to be able to be greater than profit. 

Quote from @Michael Plaks:

"Allowed loss" is not lost - it had been allowed, meaning it got applied to your taxes already!

Remember Mom used to give you lunch money? If you spent $3 of her $5 on lunch today, then $3 was "allowed." Only the remaining $2 is available for tomorrow. Would not it be nice if we could buy lunch and still have the entire $5 tomorrow...

Thank you for your reply. Allowed loss in your example would be up to 5 dollars since 5 dollars is what you made. Unallowed loss would be the about over 5 dollars right? But the main thing is allowed losses if not used completely that year can be brought to the next year same with unallowed losses.. which makes me think an easier way to describe this is that (net losses - net gain) can be applied in future returns? Assuming I'm a passive investor, name around 175k agi