Skip to content
×
PRO
Pro Members Get Full Access!
Get off the sidelines and take action in real estate investing with BiggerPockets Pro. Our comprehensive suite of tools and resources minimize mistakes, support informed decisions, and propel you to success.
Advanced networking features
Market and Deal Finder tools
Property analysis calculators
Landlord Command Center
$0
TODAY
$69.00/month when billed monthly.
$32.50/month when billed annually.
7 day free trial. Cancel anytime
Already a Pro Member? Sign in here
Pick markets, find deals, analyze and manage properties. Try BiggerPockets PRO.
x
All Forum Categories
All Forum Categories
Followed Discussions
Followed Categories
Followed People
Followed Locations
Market News & Data
General Info
Real Estate Strategies
Landlording & Rental Properties
Real Estate Professionals
Financial, Tax, & Legal
Real Estate Classifieds
Reviews & Feedback

All Forum Posts by: Tim Wolak

Tim Wolak has started 2 posts and replied 6 times.

Post: North Carolina LTR Market

Tim WolakPosted
  • Posts 6
  • Votes 4
Quote from @Chad Gray:

@Tim Wolak Question for you and sorry if I already missed it, when you say cashflow negative, are you referring to just PITI - rent, or are you also including budgeting for vacancies, capex, property management etc.? There's really no right answer to this question, it all depends on your current situation and investing goals. In my personal opinion, if you're looking for your first property I would stay away from anything cash flow negative, especially if the rent doesn't even cover the PITI payments. Pat raised very good points in both scenarios but in the end it comes down to your risk tolerance. Something that is cash flow positive 350/month will inherently be less riskier to you personally than something that is cash flow negative (200)/month. I would recommend going for cash flow at least on your first property or two and then saving the appreciation plays once you have more experience and a larger safety net with the cash flowing properties. But again, there's opinions on all sides of the spectrum on this topic, just filter through the pros and cons of both and decide what works best for you at this time.


 Hey Chad! Thanks for the comment.

I am definitely looking for something cash flow positive on my first property. In fact I'm really just looking for a "base hit". I am so new to this whole process I am just trying to get familiar with everything (analyzing deals, getting a loan, closing, any rehab, etc) and possibly make a little bit of money if possible. I do not need a big time appreciation play I'm just trying to understand the market without losing all of my money if that makes sense.


I see you're in Raleigh, I would love to hear about your experience up there! 

Post: North Carolina LTR Market

Tim WolakPosted
  • Posts 6
  • Votes 4
Quote from @Pat Lulewicz:

Tim - primary markets that are the largest in the state will always attract the most investors with the deepest pockets; this includes Private Equity funds that are in-play in most primary and secondary markets in NC. Though I agree with you that 1% deals aren't readily available on the MLS, they're still out there in the form of off-market transactions and value-add plays. In addition, you will find that the 1% rule was created to be used primarily as a cash-flow consideration, and as an average and doesn't really consider the other variables to cash flow like property taxes, insurance, CAPEX and vacancy as well as appreciation because that is speculative. In NC, we have pretty low property taxes compared to places like NY or Chicago. It's not unheard of to see an $80K, 2/1 house have property taxes of $400-$700. With that being said, consider a brief, over-simplified case study. Primary markets are much more complex from an appreciation perspective so I will stay away from that:

House 1: $70K in a tertiary market with a $600/tenant with a 20% DP. Yes - these are common in NC tertiaries and even some secondaries. You can probably expect a levered-ROI of 10% with all expenses and reserves considered which could net you $1,500 or so per year. Because its a small market with not much job growth and therefore not much population growth, it'll always be a good, base-hit cash flow market and your long-run appreciation might be 2% per year (or potentially just buoy up and down for 30 years) and rent isn't expected to move much because of the lack of job/pop growth. So over 30 years your projected cash flow is around $45K and appreciation of $60K ($105k total). However during that time, you've replaced the roof ($7K), siding ($6k), windows ($6k), HVAC ($8k), all appliances 2-3 times ($5K), cabinets ($3K), and countertops a few times from wear and tear ($3k). In addition, you've had migrant tenants so there's been 10+ turns resulting in expenses above and beyond the tenant SD and legal costs to try and collect were too high so you covered the difference of $1K each time ($10k). Those 10 turns also resulted in lease-up of 1 months' rent to the PM company ($6,000). Add it all up and your net return turned into ~$51k very quickly but still a modest 3.5x-4x return on your money. The above expenses are conservative and assume the reserves calcs covered other plumbing, repair, etc. surprises.

House 2: $300,000 in a secondary market with a $1,800 tenant. Also common. At the start, a levered-ROI will probably be 0-3%. However, 5 years in, there's a good likelihood that your rents have increased $100-$300/m without a turn needed because a married couple working in finance doesn't want to pay a moving company every 2 years, and their golden retriever (that also earned you a pet fee and pet rent) loves the fenced in backyard. If we consider a 30 year avg rent of $2,200 and ONLY a 3% appreciation (I'd "budget" a bit higher), your net cash-flow expectation is around $120k with appreciation of ~$450K ($570K total). Sure, your roof will be a bit more expense ($10K), HVAC is an HVAC in most cases ($8K), there's more siding ($10K) and windows ($15k), SS appliances aren't that much more ($9k), probably a few extra cabinets ($5k), granite is definitely more than formica ($6k), and you now have a garage door to worry about ($2k). The IT couple doesn't want to move, their dream home is becoming exceedingly more expensive and investors are scooping up inventory similar to yours cash, and every other rental looks the same so they or their similar avatar stay for 6-7 years resulting in 5 turns, max ($9K lease-up fees). Lastly, each turn isn't that much higher because finance-couple took care of the home and want their SD back, and obviously don't want extra damages in collections on their credit score ($3k x 5 = $15K). Your net here is more around $481k or a 8x on your money. BTW, even using that same 2% appreciation as in the tertiary market, your return multiple is still around 4.5x-5x.

Sure it looks awesome to find a solid cash-flow asset, but cash flow is defense against capex and maintenance. Appreciation and pulling equity out to re-invest is the offense that lights up the scoreboard. You can see why people will take a $0 or a small L monthly to buy and hold in primary markets like Charlotte and Raleigh; these places are booming and upward trending home prices will inevitably pull rents up with them with a 1-3 year lag, but it will come.


 Pat I appreciate that detailed response. It's extremely helpful for newbies like me to see deals written out like that as examples. I think the biggest barrier to entry for me in an area like Charlotte and Raleigh is just the limited capital. It's the main driver of why I am looking for something that is cashflow positive or at least breaking even. While I have a steady W-2 I am still looking for a property that could get tenants in quickly and begin positive cash flowing but may be I am being overly optimistic about the investable universe. For someone starting out who is really just looking for a base hit and to learn the ropes which one of those houses would you recommend?

Post: North Carolina LTR Market

Tim WolakPosted
  • Posts 6
  • Votes 4
Quote from @Maggie Blackburn:

@Tim Wolak I was experiencing that same challenge as I started looking at Charlotte! I pivoted to look more toward the suburbs of Charlotte (Gastonia, Concord, etc), but it's still been challenging to find deals that break even or cash flow in this market. Thought I could see a decent split between CF and appreciation in Charlotte, but I may do some more research and pick a market with higher chance of CF based on the prices of housing today. 


 That makes a lot of sense. Would love to know where you end up looking. I have been starting to do some surface-level research on the Greenville area.

Post: North Carolina LTR Market

Tim WolakPosted
  • Posts 6
  • Votes 4
Quote from @Andrew Garcia:

Hi @Tim Wolak, the 1% rule is for cashflow-centric investors targeting lower price points. For example, if you buy a $100,000 house in Cleveland, you could easily hit the 1% rule but that is not necessarily the best option.

The thing with Charlotte is that it used to be great for cash flow 2-3 years ago but it has seen explosive growth since then. 

If you buy in the right areas, you could see massive appreciation. I know a woman that bought her home in June of 2020 in Concord and today that property is worth $450k. It has not even been two years and she has $160k in equity.

The question is then: would you lose $200 per month in cash flow to make $80k per year in appreciation?

That is why so many investors continue to pour their money into Charlotte.

If you are looking for cashflow positive areas, you will be looking at lower price point homes and probably 2 beds.

A local real estate agent should be able to help you more with that.

Hope this helps! Let me know if I can be of any assistance.


 Hey Andrew, that is extremely helpful and makes a ton of sense. I was definitely getting discouraged looking at the housing prices in Charlotte and trying to figure out a way to come out positive every month.

Thanks a ton! Much appreciated.

Post: North Carolina LTR Market

Tim WolakPosted
  • Posts 6
  • Votes 4

I am new to the real estate investing space but am looking for a long-term rental property in the North Carolina or even South Carolina area. The only issue is that when I use some of those rules I've been reading about (i.e. 1% rule) none of the properties even come close to passing the sniff test. I am aware that these rules are just for quickly sorting through deals on the surface but I still cannot seem to find anything that on the surface would even come close to producing positive cash flow.

For example many houses in the Charlotte area (I know this market is extremely hot) are selling in the 500k range but are only renting out for ~2-2.5k. It doesn't seem like a single one of these houses would be cash flow positive.


Am I thinking about this math correctly (again I'm very new to this type of analysis) or is it just extremely hard to find properties that are producing positive cash flows?

I am extremely new to real estate investing but have a very deep financial background (worked in wealth management and for a large asset manager). For transparency my father recently retired with a good bit of capital saved up and we are now exploring real estate investments. While we have the capital we know very little about picking an investment, analyzing investments or really where to start.

I would love to hear about how people in this community got their start, specifically the very very early days. Also if anyone can opine on this I'd love to hear about the different options in real estate investing. Specific questions that come to mind:

How much capital do I need to get started?

Can I still flip houses profitably with no construction experience?

What are the legal components to real estate investing?

I'm not expecting someone to answer every question but it would be extremely helpful to hear about others experiences.

Thanks!