All Forum Posts by: Tim Ellis

I agree with @Joe Chirdon.  Cumberland county is where I invest also.  It is definitely a place to look into.

@Russell Brazil I'm sorry if my info was misleading! I'm not sure if its just Pennsylvania, but when we called the Attorney General's office in Harrisburg, they were able to connect us with the department who oversees Service Animals. That phone number and person worked under the Department of Agriculture. They were the point of contact we were directed to for any service animal questions. I merely posted the information for others to share the article's sources and show how we ended up on the ADA's website. All sites revolving around enforcement stated terms like 'service dog' but never clearly defined them, hence why we went on a document deep dive beyond HUD.

I did find the memo fheo-2013-01, thank you! It did not come up when I searched generically on HUD's website (had to site the memo specifically). I've attached it to this response for others (Here!).  I'm glad to see that that memo references the ADA definition.

To our specific situation, because these were existing tenants currently under a one year lease, we had less concern about the "discrimination" and more concern about signing the pet addendum and collecting a fee for potential damages caused by their puppy (who is currently not potty trained, is teething, etc).  In an attempt to be even more neutral, we only charged them the exact same amount as another tenant of ours who has a dog, in hopes to further show we do not want to discriminate; just want to make sure our home can one day be repaired from potential damage.

@Greg M. You are correct, if this situation becomes more of a discussion we will have our lawyer involved more formally; laws are always changing and from all the articles we've read, this particular subject can be grey.  Please note that the Fair Housing Act of 1968 was passed to deal with discrimination as it pertains to housing.  While we reviewed these guidelines as well (actually it was our first web search) it only states that we cannot discriminate against someone with a disability, and therefore their need for assistance from a service animal.  The ADA, a part of the Civil Rights Division, while not an authority or enforcer of this subject with regards to housing, is used as a primary source and baseline for all of these laws and acts relating to disabilities.

Also, the ADA states that "Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA."  Again, if this becomes an issue, we will dive more fully into our states laws and their interpretation.  If they provide appropriate documentation then we will of course allow it.  Pretty tough to figure for a 7-week old puppy though, no matter how cute she is.

@Thomas S. We had the tenants sign a pet addenda (realtors version) and initial and date the ADA document stating they've read and agree to the definitions, so hopefully that helps in the long run.  I guess only time will tell.

Thanks everyone for your feedback, keep it coming!

I wanted to share with you a situation that recently came up with one of our rentals regarding service dogs.  Please note we are located in Pennsylvania, though this issue is at a federal level.  

The Situation:   Our tenants approached us about potentially getting a puppy and training it to be a service dog for them.  They had explained that one member of the family had a diagnosed condition which would benefit from a service dog (sorry to be vague, but I'm not sure if saying the actual diagnosis is illegal).  We do not currently restrict pets at this location, though we do require more information, a pet addenda and associated fees, etc. so we were up for discussing once they were more serious about getting a dog and its breed, age, etc. Long story short, we found out about the actual puppy within two hours of its delivery to their new owners (our tenants).  SO the situation - we now had a puppy in a rental of ours with no written approval to be there and the disagreement that this puppy (7 weeks old) was designated a service dog.  We, as landlords said no, its not a service dog.  The tenants, naturally disagreed. Please understand too that we have no issue with a service dog or our tenants having one, we were just concerned that they would have every intention of training this dog, but then grow slack on its training and ending up with just a pet, and for free, no less, in our home and causing potential damage.  So, we began to research.

The Research:  Oh, the internet.  We found many, many articles discussing this issue, training websites selling their certificates and people sharing their stories.  What we couldn't find were the actual laws and definitions in the law pertaining to our direct issue of this puppy, who currently has no other training, is seen as a service dog in the eyes of the law.  Through some serious digging, and calling several governmental departments (all of which were as confused as we were) here's what we found.

1) The Department of Agriculture (PA) turns out they're the ones who enforce laws in and around service animals (news to us!).  Unable to get anyone on the phone, we went digging on their website and found a PDF specifically talking about service animals (Link Here).  This article mostly spoke about non-discrimination and service dogs in businesses.  While helpful, it wasn't exactly what we were looking for.  What DID help were the sources listed and their referral to our next source.

2) The ADA.gov (Americans with Disabilities Act) is a part of the United States Justice Department and defines the standards in the country with regards to those with disabilities.  On this website, we were able to find a document that actually define and elaborate on what a Service Dog is defined as.   In this document (Link Here) it states that "Service animals are defined as dogs that are individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities. Examples of such work or tasks include guiding people who are blind, alerting people who are deaf, pulling a wheelchair, alerting and protecting a person who is having a seizure, reminding a person with mental illness to take prescribed medications, calming a person with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) during an anxiety attack, or performing other duties. Service animals are working animals, not pets. The work or task a dog has been trained to provide must be directly related to the person’s disability. Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA."

The Conclusion:  Because we were able to find that document and review the definition of a service dog, we were able to show the tenants that because their puppy was not yet trained to "provide a task directly related to the person's disability" the dog was still a pet, not a service dog.  We agreed that once their dog was trained, they just needed to submit proof to us from their doctor that the dog, in fact, has underwent and completed training specifically related to our tenants disability.  Once submitted, we would forego the pet fee.

Has anyone else gone through anything like this?  I would love to hear feedback on what you have done when it comes to service animals.

@Shane C. Downs absolutely.  Let me know when youre planning on coming down and ill make some time to meet up. 

@Shane C. Downs dont let getting a deal keep you from networking and meeting people and learning.  There are plenty of people to meet and talk to or even help you with your first deal.

You just missed a great one last night in harrisburg.  LIMG-harrisburg and Central PA Investors both meet in harrisburg towards the end of each month.  There is also Carpoa which meets the beginning of the month.  If you join meetup you can search each of those and it will update you on dates and times.  I try to go to every one possible in this area. 

@David Smith, @David Krulac is absolutely correct.  This is a great area to be investing.  I have 5 rentals and they are always usually rented within 1 week.  I have one that we are still rehabbing right now and the neighbor likes the neighborhood and has already put a deposit on the house so they get it before we even have to list it for rent.  Reach on out to me if you need anything or just want to talk.

You say you've asked friends and family members to partner, but did you actually have a deal to show them?  I've found that its hard to talk to people about money if they don't think about real estate the same way you do.  I was in  your shoes starting out too.  The way I got my first person to invest with me was by having a deal and showing them the numbers and how it worked.  Once they saw that and it started making sense they were more willing to opening their wallet.

Those meetups are both very good.  Lots of great people to meet and network with.  I attend as often as I can.