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All Forum Posts by: Chris Winterhalter

Chris Winterhalter has started 26 posts and replied 537 times.

Post: Preferred Return

Chris WinterhalterPosted
  • Investor
  • Chicago, IL
  • Posts 566
  • Votes 272

That is quite a hurdle to get over on the preferred return side for the developer.  The preferred nature puts priority on specific equity for returns.  I would be instantly skeptical just based on the age old adage of "if it sounds too good to be true then it probably is" and would look very closely at the deal.  It's more typical to have a preferred return at 7-10% & then projections on cash flow splits or gains at sale in the double digits.  Also is the 40% return over two years with the return being 20% annually?  Or 40% averaged out over two years?  

If you don't have a good feeling about the developer there are plenty of other private placements to invest in.  I wouldn't necessarily walk away right now but carefully do your due diligence and make your decision from there.  Good luck! 

Post: Purchasing a Business and Property - B&B

Chris WinterhalterPosted
  • Investor
  • Chicago, IL
  • Posts 566
  • Votes 272

@Bryan Hylenski 

At a distance everything sounds wonderful!  However you don't want your dream property & investment turning into a nightmare.   That wouldn't make retirement very fun (& could deplete your retirement funds as well).  

@Joel Owens pointed out some questions worth answering especially around the 60k net & how the current owner/operator/manager is being paid.  Also how about debt service?  

I would also dive into the property financials.  How are they driving sales?  What channels? Online?  Travel Agencies?  The hated OTA's (online travel agencies) who take a large cut?  How's the F&B (food & beverage) component ran?  Are they currently owner/operator managed?  Any deferred maintenance or large upcoming renovations needed? 

A local bank is the best bet for a property like this, however they will probably require at least 25% down unless you have an existing solid relationship.  If you can get the seller to take back a 2nd mortgage let's say 15% (at a low interest rate) then maybe (MAYBE) you can be in the deal for around 10% (with a solid banking relationship).  However you will need additional reserves, I would say 12 months operating & debt service (including the 2nd).  Plus any deferred maintenance or capital projects needed.  

I also wouldn't count on the 60k (if that's accurate) & plan for the best & worst case scenario (break even) for the 1st year.  B&B's are extremely operator driven especially if you have an F&B component.  Numbers can quickly go in the wrong direction for a variety of reasons.  

What are the sales for last three years?  

Post: Apartment Complex vs. Hotel Ownership

Chris WinterhalterPosted
  • Investor
  • Chicago, IL
  • Posts 566
  • Votes 272

@Joe Fairless thanks for the mention...

@Jeffrey Coleman

I've replied to several other threads with a similar topic.  This is probably not the best platform to discuss hotel investing.  There are very few members involved in the business and much of the industry is misunderstood among the masses.  However that doesn't mean you can't be given solid advice especially as a new investor.  It just means that most of the posters will probably push you away from hotels (& that's probably how my advice will sound as well).  

I would be careful to take too much of what @Michael Siekerka states to heart.  Although he did state some macro level facts (AHLA is a great source) it's very difficult to look at the industry from a macro level.  All real estate investing is local & unless you are an institutional investor (I know of none on the site) I doubt the information would help you in making a decision.  I wish it were that easy to understand at a high level however it's really not.  Even multi-family macro stats don't mean much to a smaller investor.  I think it's good to have an understanding of the overall macro outlook however I wouldn't use the information to underwrite a specific asset.  Also on BP people love to create operating rules, like the 50% rule for multi-family operating expenses.  This can somewhat work (top level) because most of the site is looking at C/B class multi-family properties with similar rents.  However stating that 75% of revenue with be expensed for hotels can lead you in the wrong direction.  It can be wildly, wildly different (both directions) based on so many factors including average daily rate (ADR), occupancy, & RevPar (revenue per available room, based on ADR & occupancy over a certain period of time).  Also F&B (food & beverage) revenue can skew this greatly.  Believe it or not most hotel restaurants and bars don't make money.  

So back to your original question. Hotels are much more operator driven than multi-family properties. As Joel mentioned they run a cycle with the economy that generally lasts 7 years (give or take). We are heading to the top of the cycle & the market is extremely hot (industry experts expect 2-3 years of additional growth). RevPar is up year over year and in 2014 the increase came more from ADR than occupancy (it started with occupancy in the cycle). Which means more money flows to the bottom line (higher rate with same occupancy means not adding variable costs with additional guests). Although many CRE professionals specialize you will find that hotel professionals generally have one focus...hotels. Many in the industry came from top hotel schools, Cornell, Michigan State, NYC, Houston Conrad, UNLV etc. Although it's a large dollar amount industry it's rather small based on the number of players in the industry. Here are a few comparisons of hotels vs. multi-families that I would make...

  • The industry has higher barriers to entry compared to small multi-family investment real estate.  If you want to buy a motel for 1-2MM be ready to run the entire operation yourself (day & night).  Hiring a professional management company & full time employees will not be in the budget at this level.  Hopefully you can hustle to buy a few more properties, get the expertise to build a management company, & eventually buy an asset that will make you money (& not give you a job).  However those assets generally start at 5MM (& can be professionally managed with a profit).  
  • Hotels are extremely operator driven and success of the property can vary by operator.  Hotels have the business component which adds risk, that's why select service/limited service properties are highly sought after right now. More room revenue & less everything else. Multi-family is also operator driven however a lot less than hotels.  If good assets are purchased and maintained you have a much more durable income stream than hotels. Hence market perceived risk is higher.  
  • Financing is different as mentioned by Michael however it can vary greatly based on several factors.  Branded properties are easier to finance vs. independents.  Hotel brands will generally require a new investor to hire an approved management company.  Renovations can recur more often than multi-families & are capital intensive.  They are also dictated by the brand.  Generally you need to be more liquid to purchase a hotel asset compared to a multi-family property.
  • Cap rates are 100-200 basis points higher than similar grade multi-family properties because of the perceived risk. However the debt & equity markets price the risk as well (higher interest rates, lower LTV's etc).
  • STR (Smith Travel Research) aids in comparing pricing based on your comp set. Most branded properties are required to submit ADR and occupancy on a regular basis to STR. This allows STR to create a STAR report giving buyers, sellers, and revenue managers access to accurate real time and historic data. This is vital when developing or investing in an existing hotel asset.
  • Hotels are rapidly changing, & although multi-family is as well, not quite like hotels.  You might find yourself in a property that is obsolete in 10 years (if you invest in an older economy property).  What do you do?  Repurpose?  Sure that's a possibility...however with multi-families generally a large renovation will solve much of your problems if you're in a solid location (if leverage isn't an issue).  
  • Hotels are something that many small investors dedicate their lives to, learning, networking, & investing in the industry. Multi-family investors can own a complex here and there with a lot less input & dedication (still hard work). However there are plenty of small investors that invest in private placements/syndications for hotel deals. There are also smaller investors that own a few 5-10MM smaller hotel properties (select service) and have a solid management company. These are generally high net worth investors & busy professionals. As Bill mentioned you can also invest in a REIT.

Although there are many hotel operators & investors that are killing it right now in the marketplace many have made it through the storm (many didn't make it).  Good operators can return huge profits to investors, however that also comes with risk.  If the asset class interests you I would consider learning more about the industry.  

I'm in the hotel industry on the construction side.  My knowledge has came from wanting to step over to the investment side of hotels along with my strong network in the industry.  I've been carefully planning the steps & I'm hoping 2015 is the year we can develop an extended stay or limited service property.  We own & invest in multi-family properties.  I understand multi-family complexes & I really believe in the sector as a whole.  My decision to jump over to hotels isn't necessarily based on return.  It's also a sector a believe in & truly enjoy (+ we have experience in the sector).  Returns & profits can be huge, however so can losses.  It comes down to your goals, do you want to make real estate your business & career?  Or do you just want to invest in it along the way?  Those are questions that will help you answer which direction to choose in real estate.  Good luck!  

Post: Any Investors Near Oxford Ohio

Chris WinterhalterPosted
  • Investor
  • Chicago, IL
  • Posts 566
  • Votes 272

@Jeff Greenberg 

Great demand generator with a student body which almost entirely lives on or near campus (somewhat out there for a commute).  It's actually a really good school & attracts well educated talent from across the midwest & country (with a decent affluent base).  However the university has changed the dynamics of the student housing industry by requiring 1st & 2nd year students to live on campus (started it around 2008-09 if I remember correctly).  I think the off campus housing took a hit & went through a mini-correction.  However past 2-3 year performance should be indicative of the current environment.  I might be interested in the deal as well.  Feel free to shoot me a call to discuss. 

Post: Land in St Louis Missouri

Chris WinterhalterPosted
  • Investor
  • Chicago, IL
  • Posts 566
  • Votes 272

@Pili Yarusi 

That's a very tough area.  Is it burdened with debt?  Honestly the best bet would be to liquidate quickly (at least priced to sell), the market is only going down hill over the long term.  It's filled with crime & a lot of issues, it makes Ferguson look good (which is nearby).  

Without knowing the rest of the details I would find a qualified agent that specializes in North County (Jennings included).  Price it to sell & never look back.  

Do you have any property details yet?  Location, size, zoning etc?  

Post: Who's building multi-families (20+ units)?

Chris WinterhalterPosted
  • Investor
  • Chicago, IL
  • Posts 566
  • Votes 272

I wanted to bump my post, I'm curious if anyone is developing multi-family projects (ground up) right now.  Cap rates have compressed even further since my initial post (Oct 13).  If so what do the numbers look like?  Are you penciling the deal with low debt, strong rent growth (expected), & appreciation?  Are you infilling the development where supply is constrained?  Or are you a developer looking to sell out after you stabilize?  

Post: Painting: Using The Same Color Scheme Or Not?

Chris WinterhalterPosted
  • Investor
  • Chicago, IL
  • Posts 566
  • Votes 272

@Mike V. 

It depends how much your flips vary in location, price point, & style.  If they are all similar & the color scheme is working then I would stick with it (until style changes are appropriate).  One of the most difficult aspects of flipping houses is the scalability.  Flips can be extremely time consuming especially for the first few.  Any system you can put in place to free up more time is key.  Each flip will be unique so you don't want to take away the uniqueness either.  When I was flipping properties we ran all color schemes by our stager & realtor.  They were key in keeping our SOW's & designs in check.  Our price point was below 350k so we never really consulted a professional designer (except once).  

So in short if they are all similar locations, price points, & styles (& the color scheme is working) then I would stick with it.  From time to time run the colors by your team if changes are needed.  If you are flipping different types of properties, locations, etc then you may need to address the color scheme on a project basis.  Good luck! 

Post: learning commericial real estate lingo.

Chris WinterhalterPosted
  • Investor
  • Chicago, IL
  • Posts 566
  • Votes 272

When I first started I purchased a CRE dictionary & would reference it all the time. I would flip through it on the couch, during lunch, and after networking events. I would also reference it when reading CRE & investing books. It was actually such a great little tool for learning the lingo. I can't remember the publisher off the top of my head but I did find this on Costar's website...

https://www.costar.com/about/glossary.aspx?hl=1

Also as @Bill Gulley mentioned nothing is more important than learning the fundamentals.  The basics aren't sexy but they will make you successful over the long term (& keep you out of jail).  Good luck!  

Post: Land in St Louis Missouri

Chris WinterhalterPosted
  • Investor
  • Chicago, IL
  • Posts 566
  • Votes 272

@Pili Yarusi 

Depending on where the land is I too would potentially be interested.  

Post: Looking for Class C Apartments in Class B area.

Chris WinterhalterPosted
  • Investor
  • Chicago, IL
  • Posts 566
  • Votes 272

@David Chow

Welcome to the club, you've joined a large group of well capitalized & networked investors looking for C class buildings in B areas.  I haven't seen many lately....and the ones that I have are not trading at a discount relative to deferred maintenance.  But that doesn't mean they aren't out there!  

As far as finding out property class information there's no one place that qualifies properties or areas.  The topic has been discussed at length on BP so feel free to search the forum.  Market knowledge, strong network & experience are probably the three best things you can have when classifying a building and area.  Your nicest/newest buildings in your CBD's & strong sub pockets are your A buildings.  It goes down from there...