All Forum Posts by: Stephen Gallagher

Unlicensed, Uninsured, Uneducated, read a Home Depot 1,2,3 book, who knows?  But I see it all the time.  Best call was a handyman that was terminating a 15 amp wire on a 20 amp circuit and arc welded his screwdriver in the panel.  Homeowner thought that another electricians price of $250 was too much to run that 20 amp circuit.  They found a handyman to do it for $75.  Ended up costing him $2500 for an emergency panel change over after hours.

Electricity is not a hobby.  There is a reason it takes 2000 hours of on the job each year for four years and 243 hours of schooling for four years just to test for the Journeyman license.  Want to pay unskilled prices, you get unskilled workers.

Stephen Gallagher

See my other post.  Not all Electricians can rewire old homes.  Ask for references and ask about their processes.

30-40 K is normal.

Stephen

Good Luck with your purchase.

Knob and Tube is very common and has its fair share of negative and positive comments.  This is a timely post as I am quoting a K&T upgrade on a house here in NH this week.  There is no cut and dry answer to this question.  The electrical needs to be considered a system.  The system should take into consideration the Service (From Utility to Panel), the Branch circuits (individual circuits running through the walls) and the utilization devices (switches, Receptacles, and other devices).  

The service may need to be upgraded.  Typically when K&T is on premise the panel usually is still screw in and buss fuses.  This will need to be upgraded as it is the foundation of your system.  Cost can vary for a panel upgrade and is dependent on the Electrical Code edition adopted in your jurisdiction.  in my area this upgrade can run from $2500 to $4500.

The branch circuits running through the walls can, maybe maybe not, be safe.  K&T undisturbed can present no problems and will last longer than I am alive.  The issue that arises with K&T is where the integrity of the wires are compromised.  This compromise can be from heat caused by over loading,  heat caused by Added insulation (blown in cellulose) and brittle conductor and sheathing from past work.

Utilization devices are a concern, most notably because K&T has no ground and either two prong devices are in place, or people have unsafely added three prong receptacles in their place.  Grounded receptacles are the safest and although one can replace non three prong receptacles with a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter, this still provides no grounding conductor.  Dryers and Ranges also normally need to be upgraded when found in a home with Knob and Tube.

Cost wise will vary depending on requirements of the Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ).  Local Ordinance may require you to embark on a journey that may be way more than you want to undertake.  Smoke detectors, Upgrading service, complete rewire may be your only options.  When I estimate the rewire,  I always start with the Service, include Smokes and go into the entire job, knowing that the house will now be brought up to whatever the currently adopted code is.  In my case this will include things like Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter Protected circuits through out the house.  Updated range and dryer, Smoke/CO as required, Updating premise grounding, surge protection.  This can get costly quickly.

Any electrician quoting by Sq. Ft. will either be extremely high $15-$20 per sq. ft. or will not be in business for very long.

Just some rough numbers for your entertainment, again base on my jurisdiction of NH.

Service Upgrade $3-5K

Smoke/CO $1.5-2.5K

Dryer Upgrade $3-500

Range Upgrade $3-500

each bedroom $6-900

Kitchen $5-10K

Each Bathroom $700-$1500

Laundry $5-900

This does not include HVAC, Sump Pump, garage, basement, attic.

The last Victorian rewire I completed was a $28K endeavor and took 3 weeks to complete.  Owner refused to remove plaster and lathe.  entire job was holes, fishing wires.  Homeowner would have saved money gutting to studs.  The amount that was paid to the contractor to plug, patch, and finish was almost as much as if they had installed all new drywall.

When considering a K&T upgrade, you will have to bring the entire house up to code.  This will most likely require additional receptacles in each room, front and rear of home, basement and garage.  This will require lighting circuits and fixtures.  When the job requires fishing you can count on 3 to 4 times the normal cost.

Adding a receptacle with open studs can be tallied at $75 each, fishing that same receptacle could be estimated at $200.  So it is always better off, if you have to rewire, to gut to the studs.  You are going to pay labor somewhere, and sweat equity and general labor is cheaper than paying electrical fees.

You stated you have an electrician coming.  First ask to see their license, ask for an insurance binder and ask for some references of other K&T jobs they have done.  Not all electricians are capable and not all have experience.  Don't be afraid to ask question of their process, like how they fish their wires, how they cut into the know and tube, do they patch?

Feel free to PM me if you need any other help.

Stephen Gallagher

Master electrician Ma, Me, NH, VT.

 Anytime,  good for anyone.  I am always open to sharing my knowledge..

@Devin Gordon

New construction people are requesting the breakers as they dont like the looks of the rectangular receptacles. The dual function receptacle is around 30 my cost and the breaker is about 40. The time saved throwing the plug on breakers on balances the time wiring the receptacle, so it is pretty much a wash for me. Other companies and areas may have different results.

The receptacles were not even available in my area until last fall and they still are not in the big box stores so for some, the dual function combo breaker is the only option.

Manufacturers have to get their money somehow. The new 2020 code about to be released will have further changes that will cost the homeowner more money. My 3000 dollar service upgrade will most likely go up to 4500 to 5000 because of outside disconnect language.

But this is what happens when the majority of the code development panel is comprised of manufacturers reps.

@Devin Gordon

Changing a panel does not trigger the upgrade to AFCI protection, unless you have to extend the branch circuits greater than six feet. This not likely unless the panel need to be relocated, than it might be triggered

New construction definitely triggers AFCI, with the 2020 code changes they will be required on all residential circuits.

@Sophie Maisel

I would put a call into your local AHJ and see what the requirements are. Every jurisdiction is on a different code cycle. There also is no such thing as a grandfather clause.

Kitchens, bathrooms, outside plugs, garages, and unfinished basements have required GFCI protection since the 2008 code. I would expect at least those circuits brought up that level of protection.

If he is just swapping a panel, without doing the outside meter socket, grounding and bonding, he is making a killing, and I should think about moving down by you.

I get 3K for a complete service upgrade going from 100 amp to 200 amp. That includes new meter socket out side, new grounding, new service conductors outside, all new breakers inside, new bonding to water meter, and kitchen, bathroom, outside, basement and garage circuits put on GFCI

Breakers.

If the work is already done, was a permit pulled, has it been inspected? Did you ask for license and insurance binder?

It is good you are asking questions. My reference is NH, VT, ME, and MA. I am not familiar with your market, but sounds to me like you are not getting the value in your upgrade.

@Matt Lefebvre

From another New Hampshireite, congratulations.

All these NH responses, makes me think we should have a get together in Concord, maybe tour your deal and share some stories.

If you need any electrical work, I'd love to give you a quote and work with you.

@Cirilo Villar

Congratulations on having the discipline to be debt free and positive 4k.

There are several questions that need to be answered to better help you.

Do you work?

How long in that position?

Where do you live?

Do you have a family member that has great credit that would help you out by adding you to one their credit card accounts?

Employment brings benefits. Most lending institutions like to see a 2 year employment history. Shows stability. They also typically will deny loans below 640 credit score. If you are not employed, I suggest seeking something in the trades that will give you future benefits as a flipper. Find a good carpenter, plumber, or electrician. Those three trades are the most costly when flipping.

If you are living at home, great! Do that as long as you can, as long as your parents will allow you. Save every amount you can. At your first opportunity buy a duplex, triplex, or quadplex, and become a landlord. Let your tenants pay your mortgage.

Family can gift you a certain amount of money. Not sure the amount now but has been up to 16k. That may be an option for you. A relative cosigning with you might be an option. Your 4k is just about enough to cover closing costs.

Get involved with a local REI group and seek an experienced partner. With a positive outlook and hard work, you might just come across someone older that you, that might take you under his wing, do a partnership with you using that 4k as a down payment and workout details for any other amounts needed.

I wish you the best of luck.