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All Forum Posts by: Scott Smith

Scott Smith has started 9 posts and replied 1043 times.

Post: Mortgage Loan Transfer to a LLC

Scott Smith
Pro Member
Posted
  • Attorney
  • Austin, TX
  • Posts 1,067
  • Votes 933

The LLC is essentially a "stop-gap" in regards to liability. If you get sued and have all those properties in your own name, then all those properties are at risk in the case of a judgment. If you are properly operating an LLC, then it is considered a separate entity from yourself: liability remains either in your LLC, or with you and any personal assets, depending on where the lawsuit originates. I usually break it down like this:

A good insurance policy is vital to cover the majority of a real estate investor's exposure. However, insurance is limited because it only protects you from one type of liability: accidents/negligence. Insurance doesn’t protect you from any part of the sale or acquisition of a property (e.x. Somebody wanting to sue for you backing out of a bad deal or accusing you of selling them a property with defects like unknown termite damage). Insurance also doesn’t protect you from misunderstandings, especially those made in writing and email. What happens in these misunderstandings is that something goes wrong either in the sale or after, and then they sue you for some statement you made that they “misunderstood”. That lawsuit is a claim for fraud, and that’s what fraud typically is...a misunderstanding and someone being “injured” and wanting to hold the other responsible for it. Insurance never protects you from these kinds of claims and they happen all the time.

After you have good insurance you need to protect yourself from what insurance doesn't cover by compartmentalizing your assets. Compartmentalization means that if something happens to one property, people suing can't touch you or the other properties. You should use either LLC's (the old and expensive way) or a Series LLC (the new and more cost/time effective way). No matter where you live or where you own assets, I personally recommend the Series LLC to be a great tool for the individual investor who is planning to expand their operation, as it allows for you to scale infinitely with no additional fees. If you're interested in using an LLC, this article also further explains the advantages of a Series LLC.

Hope this helps a bit. Most lenders are allowing these types of transfers, but the old strategy before these changes regarding the Fannie Mae updates was to introduce a Land Trust into your ownership structure of your property, bypassing the Due on Sale Clause

For a more detailed explanation of asset protection you can also refer to this article.

Post: Using LLCs to Purchase or using Quit Claim Deeds?

Scott Smith
Pro Member
Posted
  • Attorney
  • Austin, TX
  • Posts 1,067
  • Votes 933

Many of the major banks won't don't like working with LLCs, but more of the local lenders are okay working direct with an LLC. You would need to be willing to work with commercial mortgage rates, though, which impacts your bottom line.

One of the most common strategies for investors to still get the favorable financing available through their personal name while utilizing the liability protection of the LLC is by simple adding a Land Trust. You would purchase the property into your personal name, and after the sale transfer the property into the Land Trust and assigning the LLC as it's beneficiary. This is a protected transfer because it is considered an Inter Vivos Trust [an estate planning tool] and excluded from the Due on Sale Clause thanks to the St Germain Act. This article goes into the strategy in a bit more detail. You can also wrap it up easily into future estate planning and introduce more privacy into your portfolio with the Land Trust, so they are quite functional.

Hope this helps! Feel free to shoot any other questions my way if I missed anything.

Post: LLC for rental property

Scott Smith
Pro Member
Posted
  • Attorney
  • Austin, TX
  • Posts 1,067
  • Votes 933

The main function of an LLC is to provide liability protection in the case of a lawsuit. You can check out this article to see how an LLC fits into protecting yourself as an investor. If there are any specific functions you want to try accomplish with the LLC feel free to mention them and I can  swing back and try reply.

Post: Commercial Loan Details. Good?

Scott Smith
Pro Member
Posted
  • Attorney
  • Austin, TX
  • Posts 1,067
  • Votes 933

Linked the wrong article - my apologies! Here is the correct link: https://www.biggerpockets.com/blog/llc-lending-problem

Post: Financing an LLC Question

Scott Smith
Pro Member
Posted
  • Attorney
  • Austin, TX
  • Posts 1,067
  • Votes 933

Totally agree with @Andrew Postell on this. I have seen many "threat" letters from banks, even, but have yet to see a single bank execute the Due on Sale Clause against a performing note even once...

The most common strategy to avoid the situation entirely would be to use a Land Trust. You could transfer the property into the Land Trust (excluded transfer thanks to the St Germain Act, since the trust is considered an Inter Vivos Trust [estate planning tool]) and assign the LLC as a beneficiary. This article goes into more detail. Some people don't like even the chance to arguing with their lenders, so this has been a fall-back strategy for some time. Added benefits of the Land Trust is that you can tie it into estate planning easily in the future and can even introduce anonymity on public record for your own name if you have an attorney give you a hand.

Just some options. Best of luck to you moving forward!

Post: Should I create a LLC - CA Rental

Scott Smith
Pro Member
Posted
  • Attorney
  • Austin, TX
  • Posts 1,067
  • Votes 933

It's a very common question. The discussion about insurance versus LLC fits into the "second pillar" of asset protection. And the DST is something that would fit into the "third pillar," for California investors.

When I sit down with clients, I always discuss (1) their personal assets, and (2) what their current investments portfolio and other business ventures are before discussing (3) their future goals. Each of these variables will dramatically change the advice I give the individual asking me this question. Generally though, I break it down into the "five pillars" of protecting your assets.

The first pillar is avoiding unnecessary and risky activities (don't drink and drive, insurance generally won’t cover your poor decisions) and take good care of your investments(maintain your property, etc) - these simple steps will help you prevent lawsuits before they even occur.

The second pillar is a good insurance policy as that cover the majority of your exposure. However, insurance is limited because it only protects you from one type of liability: accidents/negligence. Insurance doesn’t protect you from any part of the sale or acquisition of a property (e.x. Somebody wanting to sue for you backing out of a bad deal or accusing you of selling them a property with defects like unknown termite damage). Insurance also doesn’t protect you from misunderstandings, especially those made in writing and email. What happens in these misunderstandings is that something goes wrong either in the sale or after, and then they sue you for some statement you made that they “misunderstood”. That lawsuit is a claim for fraud, and that’s what fraud typically is...a misunderstanding and someone being “injured” and wanting to hold the other responsible for it. Insurance never protects you from these kinds of claims and they happen all the time.

The third pillar applies after you have good insurance You need to protect yourself from what insurance doesn't cover by compartmentalizing your assets. Compartmentalization means that if something happens to one property, people suing can't touch you or the other properties. You should use either LLC's (the old and expensive way,) a Series LLC (a more cost/time effective way thanks to scaling,) or for investors dealing with California - the Delaware Statutory Trust. No matter where you live or where you own assets, I personally recommend the Series LLC to be a great tool for the individual investor who is planning to expand their operation, as it allows for you to scale infinitely at no additional cost. If you’re interested in using an LLC, this article also further explains the advantages of a Series LLC.

The fourth pillar is somewhat similar - you want to separate your operations from your assets. One company owns everything and does nothing (this is your SLLC a/k/a "asset holding company") and a completely separate company handles all of your operations (this is a traditional LLC a/k/a "operating company") For the operating company which serves as your face to the world and through which you do all your business, you establish a Traditional LLC to carry out the operations of your investments. The operating company takes on all of the liability that would otherwise blow back on you including: paying property management, paying contractors, collecting rent, marketing, etc.

The fifth pillar is owning everything anonymously. If people don't know that you have assets, then they are less likely to sue because there's no use in suing people that qualify for food stamps. This anonymity can be accomplished for free by using land trusts to own your companies as well as the assets. Trusts create this anonymity by removing your name from public record. Even if they can see you used to own a property, when properly transferred it will look like it was sold to investors. If they somehow guess you are the owner though, it still doesn't matter because you would not be the owner. The land trust and the LLC are the owner of the asset/real estate, so even in the scenario that potential litigants guess, they would guess wrong.

Ideally you are aiming for the strongest level of protection that doesn't kill your returns. For the majority of investors who own property in California it makes sense to use a DST from the tax savings, in comparison to an LLC.

Post: Commercial Loan Details. Good?

Scott Smith
Pro Member
Posted
  • Attorney
  • Austin, TX
  • Posts 1,067
  • Votes 933

Hey Sean,

Commercial loans can be a bit tricky, especially when you are new at investing. One thing I have known to help investors find a great lender is to go to local mastermind groups or investing meetups to chat with other investors. This is a great way to compare local rates as well as find different methods people are using for their financing.

One strategy I have seen many investors use is to finance the property in their personal name and then transfer the property into a land trust. This offers them the beneficial rates available in their personal name, and the transfer is excluded from the Due on Sale Clause under the St Germain Act since it is an Inter Vivos Trust. After you transfer the property you would assign the LLC as beneficiary of the land trust - granting you the liability protection of the LLC without violating the terms of the loan. This article explores the topic in more depth. Just another option that would definitely provide better rates, but you need to make sure not to violate any other terms on a personal loan in regards to a flip.

Best of luck to you moving forward!

Post: Buying rental property under LLC

Scott Smith
Pro Member
Posted
  • Attorney
  • Austin, TX
  • Posts 1,067
  • Votes 933

This touches on the what I call the "second pillar" of asset protection.

When I sit down with investors, I always discuss (1) their personal assets, and (2) what their current investments portfolio and other business ventures are before discussing (3) their future goals. Each of these variables will dramatically change the advice I give the individual asking me this question. Generally though, I break it down into the "five pillars" of protecting your assets.

The first pillar is avoiding unnecessary and risky activities (don't drink and drive, insurance generally won’t cover your poor decisions) and take good care of your investments (maintain your property, etc) - these simple steps will help you prevent lawsuits before they even occur.

The second pillar is a good insurance policy as that cover the majority of your exposure. However, insurance is limited because it only protects you from one type of liability: accidents/negligence. Insurance doesn’t protect you from any part of the sale or acquisition of a property (e.x. Somebody wanting to sue for you backing out of a bad deal or accusing you of selling them a property with defects like unknown termite damage). Insurance also doesn’t protect you from misunderstandings, especially those made in writing and email. What happens in these misunderstandings is that something goes wrong either in the sale or after, and then they sue you for some statement you made that they “misunderstood”. That lawsuit is a claim for fraud, and that’s what fraud typically is...a misunderstanding and someone being “injured” and wanting to hold the other responsible for it. Insurance never protects you from these kinds of claims and they happen all the time.

The third pillar applies after you have good insurance You need to protect yourself from what insurance doesn't cover by compartmentalizing your assets. Compartmentalization means that if something happens to one property, people suing can't touch you or the other properties. You should use either LLC's (the old and expensive way) or a Series LLC (the new and more cost/time effective way). No matter where you live or where you own assets, I personally recommend the Series LLC to be a great tool for the individual investor who is planning to expand their operation, as it allows for you to scale infinitely at no additional cost. If you're interested in using an LLC, this article also further explains the advantages of a Series.

The fourth pillar is somewhat similar - you want to separate your operations from your assets. One company owns everything and does nothing (this is your SLLC a/k/a "asset holding company") and a completely separate company handles all of your operations (this is a traditional LLC a/k/a "operating company") For the operating company which serves as your face to the world and through which you do all your business, you establish a Traditional LLC to carry out the operations of your investments. The operating company takes on all of the liability that would otherwise blow back on you including: paying property management, paying contractors, collecting rent, marketing, etc.

The fifth pillar is owning everything anonymously. If people don't know that you have assets, then they are less likely to sue because there's no use in suing people that qualify for food stamps. This anonymity can be accomplished for free by using land trusts to own your companies as well as the assets. Trusts create this anonymity by removing your name from public record. Even if they can see you used to own a property, when properly transferred it will look like it was sold to investors. If they somehow guess you are the owner though, it still doesn't matter because you would not be the owner. The land trust and the LLC are the owner of the asset/real estate, so even in the scenario that potential litigants guess, they would guess wrong.

Hope this helps a bit. While I do love insurance and have it on all my investments, I don't rely on it wholly. It is just another support that protects my investments. If you have more questions feel free to shoot them my way!

Post: Nevada llc with land trust

Scott Smith
Pro Member
Posted
  • Attorney
  • Austin, TX
  • Posts 1,067
  • Votes 933

In regards to Series LLCs and states that recognize them or not, the issue comes down to each specific state recognizing the "internal liability shield." Not if they have a Series LLC to create in that state or not--an investor in any state can form a Series LLC in a different state if he or she wants one. Every state has an internal liability shield for LLCs and that is what is analyzed in every state: the LLC Internal liability shield of the state you're being sued in.

Normally, I would suggest that you simply form the Series LLC, but since you are posting from California I would have another strategy I would recommend. If you would like a structure that provides the same asset protection benefits as the Series LLC and spares you from the minimum of an $800 annual Franchise tax (per Series--OUCH) imposed by California, take a look at the Delaware Statutory Trust. If you search “Delaware Statutory Trust” in the forums, you will see a couple of master threads. I have contributed to some of these.

Post: Nevada llc with land trust

Scott Smith
Pro Member
Posted
  • Attorney
  • Austin, TX
  • Posts 1,067
  • Votes 933
Originally posted by @Matthew Carducci:

@Scott Smith, very good answers and appreciate the experienced input. I live in South Texas, I'm at the point (assets/net worth) where I need to put some protection/anonymity strategies in place. I have 4x properties (all under personal mortgage with WF). 2x South Carolina, 1x Tennessee, 1x Dallas, Texas. I was recently told in a sit down with an attorney to form them into a Texas Series LLC, which I think is decent advise, correct? But then I run into due-on-sale clause issues (I understand the hot topic that is, not for this post). Then I saw a post about Land trusts in conjunction with the Series LLC. Seems like it can work.

In short, do I/can I form a Texas Series LLC that includes multiple properties spanning 3 different states? If so, how do i get the anonymity of the land trust to work? What does that setup look like? PM if we need to discuss off line. Thanks in advance.

 Hey Matthew,

It is pretty common in your situation. I have a few resources that might help answer some of the questions regarding the formation and operation of the Series LLC. The Land Trust would be very useful for both transferring properties into the Series LLC because it is excluded from the Due on Sale Clause AND it can also be used to remove the investors name from public record and provide anonymity for your ownership of the property. You can also accomplish a similar function with the use of an Agent Trust with the Series LLC, to remove your name as the manager of the LLC on public filing. 

You definitely can invest across state lines with the Texas [Series] LLC, many investors I work and invest with do. One of the other features of the Land Trust that many people overlook is that it is the entity that conducts the "business" of the investment. If you only had the Series LLC, then you may end up paying the foreign filings fees involved in investing across state lines. If the Land Trust owns the property it would conduct the business of the property, assigning the LLC as the beneficiary, and so you don't need to worry about foreign filing fees.

The more elaborate setup would look something like this: 

.................................................................. Series LLC ...................................................................................

............................................................ Agent Trust (anonymity) .......................................................................

Child Series A .............................................. Child Series B .......................................... Child Series C ..... (etc)

Land Trust A ................................................. Land Trust B ........................................... Land Trust C ...... (etc)

Property A ..................................................... Property B .............................................. Property C ........ (etc)