All Forum Posts by: Ronald Starusnak

@Ronald Starusnak - Good for you for demonstrating basic human compassion and at least trying to puzzle through a particularly prickly situation.  Placing business above any sense of humanity is a failure of the soul.  And who wants to do business with someone who has an ugly soul?

On the flip side, @Karen Margrave brings up an excellent point with regards to discrimination:  New York State's (aspirationally-named) Human Rights Laws include a restriction on housing discrimination based on age.  Discrimination includes, under these laws, providing unequal services to tenants based on their protected class status (such as age).

Therefore, if you're willing to provide extra services (e.g. setting up a soon-to-be-former-tenant with social services) to one tenant, then you'd better be willing to provide that service to all tenants, lest you find yourself on the wrong side of a discrimination lawsuit.

How does that play out in a real world worst-case scenario?

You think you're doing a good thing by offering, before upping her rent, to help the elderly lady in Unit 6 apply for Section 8 or get her in contact with Social Services.  A year from now you have a 23 year old tenant in Unit 11 who you inform "rents are going up!"  You don't offer her any Section 8 application help or to connect her with Social Services.  And, what's more, she's friends with the elderly lady who lives in Unit 6.  They get to talking and 23-year-old learns about the special treatment the elderly woman in Unit 6 got from you.  She's savvy and doesn't want to leave her apartment.  So she talks to an attorney or the local legal services clinic run by Syracuse University Law School (I did Tenant rights for Greater Boston Legal Services while I was at Boston U. School of Law, so it's not an unreasonable scenario), and they tell her about housing discrimination and how she can't be treated differently just because she's 23 and Unit 6 is 89.  

Now you find yourself on the wrong side of a discrimination lawsuit, housing this angry tenant and paying her rent AND damages.  NOT GREAT, RON.  NOT GREAT.

The unintended consequence of non-discrimination laws is that they sometimes lead to scenarios like this - where you have identified an elderly person as weak or in need of additional help but are required by law to treat her as any other tenant.

In other words...it's a pickle.

--break--

That said, and not to be the fun police here because I am a fun guy... (I tried to upload the Kawhi Leonard laughing gif here but I'm not sure if it worked) 

but I've got to say that I'm a little disappointed by the levity with which many users (not you, Ron) are treating this situation.  While I can understand gallows humor to help process or mentally manage traumatic events, these are human beings that Ron is talking about.  Potentially losing your home around the holidays is pretty traumatic.  Laughing at their circumstances doesn't seem funny, it just seems cruel.  If this were happening to my Grandma and I presented these facts to a group of unknown business people and they made a bunch of Werther's Original jokes, I would (1) be forgiven for thinking that landlords are the awful stereotypes the media and lawmakers often make them out to be, (2) be justified in hating them forever, (3) also be justified in probably punching them in the face, and (4) probably get away with it because I'd demand a jury trial and as soon as the comments of the punched party got out, the jury wouldn't sympathize with that person either and would let me go.

Again, not trying to be the fun police.  It's just that some of those comments about a potentially vulnerable population seemed gross.  Maybe I'm just being sensitive, but then again people might be acting a little bit like jerks.  We report, you decide.

OK!  Non sequitur!

@Diane G. - ahhh...the typical mistake of the non-native NYer...assuming that the rest of the state is the city.  New York City has rent control.  New York State does not have universal rent control.  New York City is a city within New York State that contains about half of the state's population.  Conversely, about half of the state's population does not live in New York City (or even particularly like it).  NYC laws, despite what they try to do in the state legislature, do not apply to the rest of New York State.  Common mistake to make.  Also, go Bills.

@Ronald Starusnak - congrats on the 11-unit! Evicting old ladies is a bit of a turn from a mobile home investment, if I'm remembering correctly! The section 8 route sounds really reasonable. I'm no lease expert, but checking with an RE lawyer on providing options between eviction, section 8 application, or a termination of housing only to welcome them back with market rents may be possible.

Caution: I'm not sure if the mechanics of the latter option is legal; I'm brainstorming here.

Eviction is for lease violations and non-payment of rent. You can't evict them. 

You CAN increase their rent - but look into your state's landlord-tenant laws, because some states limit the amount you can increase at one time.

You cannot raise their rents without giving them proper notice - in most states no lease equals a month to month tenancy which requires one month notice INCLUDING one rental period. So you can't give notice today and raise rent in the middle of the next month.

It's mid-December right now, that means the earliest you can see an increase is February 1.

@Ronald Starusnak,

We have a lot of older tenants paying below market rate, so I sympathize.   

First you gotta understand-- they will hate you, even sweet older  ladies-- you are the greedy landlord now.  They will likely list all of their expenses (ie: prescription drugs, phone bills, etc), and also inform you they are on a fixed income-- when you tell them it's going up.   I would recommend a sliding scale, say this year it will be $500, and next year it will be $600,  up until you get to market rate of $800.   Be ready for a list of deferred maintenance though,  when people pay tiny amounts, they won't  tell the landlord about anything because they fear rent increasing- but when they are paying more (even below market rate), they want stuff fixed that they overlooked for likely years. 

This immediately put you closer to market rate, and slowly increase so they can chose to stay/go.   Factor in vacancy, and you're likely going to need to put in a few grand to make it really rent ready, and I think that would be a win/win.  

@Ronald Starusnak,

We have a lot of older tenants paying below market rate, so I sympathize.   

First you gotta understand-- they will hate you, even sweet older  ladies-- you are the greedy landlord now.  They will likely list all of their expenses (ie: prescription drugs, phone bills, etc), and also inform you they are on a fixed income-- when you tell them it's going up.   I would recommend a sliding scale, say this year it will be $500, and next year it will be $600,  up until you get to market rate of $800.   Be ready for a list of deferred maintenance though,  when people pay tiny amounts, they won't  tell the landlord about anything because they fear rent increasing- but when they are paying more (even below market rate), they want stuff fixed that they overlooked for likely years. 

This immediately put you closer to market rate, and slowly increase so they can chose to stay/go.   Factor in vacancy, and you're likely going to need to put in a few grand to make it really rent ready, and I think that would be a win/win.  

I’d be unnerved about losing 500$ a month 

If your going to Subsidize their rents they can Atleast pull their weight around the place instead of just sitting around watching jeopardy in their craft- matic adjustable beds  . I’d Atleast make them knit sweaters or bake cookies to sell on the open market to off set the rent loss ! If it was me I’d tape that eviction notice right to the back of their wheelchairs and wheel em out to the curb . Maybe a night out in the elements will make them improve their conduct !

lol! 

@Karen Margrave is right. You are talking about "fair market rent", but a unit that hasn't been updated in over 15 years will require rehab to get to to "fair market condition".

Lets say it costs $6000 per unit to update. Over the course of three years, that is $166 per month. Over six years that is $83 per month. You mention section 8 pays $725 per month. Let's say that fair market for after rehab is $800 per month. Based on this scenario, with rehab costs, you wouldn't even break even at the higher rent over six years. Maybe my numbers are not right, but the point is do the math. Make sure rehab is getting the desired return. 

As far as how to handle the old ladies. I like your thoughts on trying to connect them with programs to help with rent. Keeping the current tenant as a higher rate removes your rehab expense.

One idea is to increase rent to $400 effective February 1st and notify them it is going to $725 on June 1st. That puts the rent right in line with the section 8 amount you mentioned. This gives them time time to either plan for the higher expense or move.

Everyone talking about "throwing grandma out" may not be thinking of the down side in handling it this way. I would not increase rent by 2X with only 30 days notice. They probably won't have time to move and you could be stuck evicting them. So you go into court evicting an old lady, in the winter because you wanted to increase rent by over two times current rent. Even if the law is on your side, it looks bad. Wait until that story gets on to social media and spreads like wild fire.

It is far better for a landlord to work with tenants to get through these difficult situations. It is not about being a "softy", but rather the smart business decision. Helping grandma either pay more or transition out is in your best interest.

@Ronald Starusnak when I bought my 4-plex there was a fellow paying $600/mo rent while the other units go for $1,100. I met with him and explained that while I want to work with him, I simply cannot afford to rent for so low. He could not afford more so he suggested he get a roommate and they are my favorite tenants today.

Let them know your situation and see if they can help find a solution. They HAVE to know that they were getting a fantastic deal and that it wouldn't last forever.

With the respect that all humans and in addition our elders, deserve.

Quoting a line from Fried Green Tomatoes "I'm old, I'm not a child."

I wouldn't hold it against anyone to raise the rent without a word to the tenant.

I also wouldn't hold it against anyone to work with an existing tenant because, after all, they are humans and this is where they live. We don't sell TV's to people, it's a bit more personal and significant than that.

@Ronald Starusnak  how much more are you going to get with new ?  If only 100 more leave them alone. It will cost you a few k to get them rent ready again , two three months for new tenants do the math .  No headaches while earning a little less , I will take that any day.